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How do I drive home my words? What I say... What she hears
I'm completely fired up about this right now so please don't take my tone as overbearing or rude. I'm venting and getting desperate to resolve this!
When I'm dating a new woman there are 3 or so issues I'm absolutely firm on. No wavering. No doubts. If you want to be in my life this is how it is.
As appropriate I will communicate as best as I can that these issues are EXTREMELY important to me. And I cannot express in typing these words out how seriously I take them.
Really there are only a handful of things I am firm about. And I really have been going out of my way to be EXTREMELY clear on these issues. Repeating them 2 or 3 times to make sure I get the point across. Was once a blatant asshole in making a woman repeat to me what I said so that I drove home the point with a blunt instrument kind of firm.
1) I don't want children
2) Back to back texting / phone calls
3) When I'm at work, unless it's an emergency, don't expect me to answer or call back right away. I will call, but it may be a while. (I work in critical emergency management. A lot of times I just can't answer a personal call)
I understand #1 is huge but remember I'm in the dating realm. If you desperately want kids this is the time to say so and go date someone else. I'm not going to change. I've made it very clear I'm not going to change. Don't come back 6 months or 6 years from now and bring up how someday we should have kids.
And in every new dating relationship I have to face the challenge of when they completely ignore the conversation I had with them the night, week, month before.
Here's an example.... I absolutely hate at a primordial level when someone texts back to back with the prompting text. I mean, HATE it in my soul kind of thing. You know the...
"What are you doing?"
"???"
"Are you ignoring me?"
"Answer me please"
"Whatever, didn't want to talk to you anyway"
"Goodnight I guess"
"I hate you"
Script has not been changed. Literally got all of that in a matter of 10 minutes. I was at work. She knew I was at work. I had told her an hour earlier that I would be unavailable.
I HATE HATE HATE when that type of guilt ridden, attention seeking texting happens. And had repeated my hatred of that TWO nights earlier to her and told her that if she continues to do it I will end the relationship. She did it anyway...
I have "Nexted" 4 women this year alone for blatant ignoring my boundaries. So obviously I am failing at getting the message across. No matter what I say, or how firmly I explain it, I seem to not get the point across.
So my question for the group is... If I can't get my point across on some of the (frankly rather stupid) little things, how can I make it clear on major issues like marriage or kids?
When a woman says she will not tolerate "x" behavior, I either accept it as fact or leave the relationship. How do I get the same in return?
When I'm dating a new woman there are 3 or so issues I'm absolutely firm on. No wavering. No doubts. If you want to be in my life this is how it is.
As appropriate I will communicate as best as I can that these issues are EXTREMELY important to me. And I cannot express in typing these words out how seriously I take them.
Really there are only a handful of things I am firm about. And I really have been going out of my way to be EXTREMELY clear on these issues. Repeating them 2 or 3 times to make sure I get the point across. Was once a blatant asshole in making a woman repeat to me what I said so that I drove home the point with a blunt instrument kind of firm.
1) I don't want children
2) Back to back texting / phone calls
3) When I'm at work, unless it's an emergency, don't expect me to answer or call back right away. I will call, but it may be a while. (I work in critical emergency management. A lot of times I just can't answer a personal call)
I understand #1 is huge but remember I'm in the dating realm. If you desperately want kids this is the time to say so and go date someone else. I'm not going to change. I've made it very clear I'm not going to change. Don't come back 6 months or 6 years from now and bring up how someday we should have kids.
And in every new dating relationship I have to face the challenge of when they completely ignore the conversation I had with them the night, week, month before.
Here's an example.... I absolutely hate at a primordial level when someone texts back to back with the prompting text. I mean, HATE it in my soul kind of thing. You know the...
"What are you doing?"
"???"
"Are you ignoring me?"
"Answer me please"
"Whatever, didn't want to talk to you anyway"
"Goodnight I guess"
"I hate you"
Script has not been changed. Literally got all of that in a matter of 10 minutes. I was at work. She knew I was at work. I had told her an hour earlier that I would be unavailable.
I HATE HATE HATE when that type of guilt ridden, attention seeking texting happens. And had repeated my hatred of that TWO nights earlier to her and told her that if she continues to do it I will end the relationship. She did it anyway...
I have "Nexted" 4 women this year alone for blatant ignoring my boundaries. So obviously I am failing at getting the message across. No matter what I say, or how firmly I explain it, I seem to not get the point across.
So my question for the group is... If I can't get my point across on some of the (frankly rather stupid) little things, how can I make it clear on major issues like marriage or kids?
When a woman says she will not tolerate "x" behavior, I either accept it as fact or leave the relationship. How do I get the same in return?
0
Comments
a suggestion.
Next time you're starting a relationship, have a bit of a complain about women who do this. Start out, "I know you're not supposed to talk about ex's on a date, so I probably shouldn't say this, but I've got to get this off my chest."
Make sure you really get across how upsetting it was to have your boundaries crossed constantly and how disrespectful you found it, and how they didn't seem to appreciate what it's like for you at work.
Do that, and the next woman will be intent on proving she's better than them.
I understand how you feel...it seems like it should be easy, state your preferences, have them respected, no problems. In my experience it just doesn't work that way. I would expect that you will scare away a lot of women with #1. Many women want kids, or at least the possibility of kids. I've known women who started out with that attitude, then after they get into a great relationship, changed their minds.
#2 and #3 are going to be met with disbelief and shit tested to a great extent. It's going to become an "if you loved, me, you'd text me/call me" sort of thing. Because everyone does it. All the time. People are texting in all sorts of places that they shouldn't be. It's going to be hard to find a woman who will believe you and think it's real, not just a personal preference that is hers to adjust as your relationship grows.
Women love to stay connected. When you disconnect, it drives them crazy. It's almost like an extended shit test that you have to stay on contact and respond to every little text.
My advice would be to not get bent out of shape about it...keep your frame, and don't respond. Treat it like a shit test. She's ordering you to respond. So don't.
You are going to have to teach a woman that you mean it, that it won't change, that it isn't negotiable, and that you are highly irritated by it.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.
Another approach is to let them text and call (without success) all day, if it makes them happy. You don't have to read them or respond.
Too bad we're not closer. We could date and ignore each other and not have kids.
If those are things you're"absolutely firm" on, then go ahead and be absolutely firm. Respond once, to the earliest back to back text or phone call with a short, sharp "I don't have serious conversations via text. Period."
You are somehow sending the message that you are squishy on these issues. Some practice at being firm, rather than just saying you are, will start to become part of you and will project from you when they meet you.
Remember to play!
Do the right thing, whether anyone is watching or not.
Be married, until you are not.
Email address: angeline.greenwood@att.net
Maybe because I'm of a different generation ... but when I was younger, it was obtrusive phone calls. And I didn't make those, either. Work time is not romantic connection time.
I would add to the initial warning, "If you call at a bad time, I won't be answering, or even looking at my phone. This has nothing to do with you; my job requires me to ignore my phone at times."
The, after her "why didn't you reply" shit test, you A&A the heck out of her:
- Oh, was that the call I heard when I was in free fall at 15,000 feet?
- Sorry I missed your text, I was dodging bullets
- I leave my phone with a buddy when I'm de-fusing bombs
And if she doesn't get the message after ONE test, you should probably next her without thinking twice.
Enneagram 5w4. I'm researching what that means, before designing t-shirt art about it.
"I feel no shame in making lavish use of the strongest muscles, namely male ones (but my own strongest muscle is dedicated to the service of men - noblesse oblige). I don't begrudge men one whit of their natural advantages as long as they respect mine. I am not an unhappy pseudomale; I am female and like it that way." RAH
or "I'll be the one that he changes for because he loves me."
"What are my 3 rules?"
If she can't remember, then that's part of the problem. Go over them again and have her repeat them back. If she does remember, then ask why she feels like she can blatantly ignore your boundaries. In either case, explain that continuing down this path will mean the end of the relationship.
Per the "fitness test" idea... another thought is to temporarily block her messages and calls. Duration determined by your exasperation level. Actions have consequences. She lost the privilege to contact you. I think that's a stronger message (and less annoying to you) than just ignoring them.
I got nothing on how to drive the initial message home more firmly. There might be many reasons why it will never sink in the first time around. Some may be specific to female psychology and some just general human cognitive blind spots. The main suspect is that a lot of people have never met anyone with truly firm boundaries and the congruent willingness to enforce them. Unfortunately, you can't really control those variables.
Good luck.
“She was 3/4 perfection and 1/4 broken glass.”
It it built in to want to be "special" to someone. Some women believe they can mold a man to their desires. But that doesn't mean all women have the expectation that they can date a guy a few times then be # 1, 2, and 3 in his priority list.
In a marriage or LTR, the rules are different. That's when one partner may need a way of reaching the other in an emergency. But to me, that point isn't reached until both people are on the lease/mortgage, have a joint bank account and/or are married.
Until that point, dating people should not intrude on each other's work lives, except in highly regulated ways. Sending flowers to the workplace? Sure. Being "the date" at a business party? OK. Endless texting just to see if you are "special" enough to distract them from their job? No way, Jose.
Enneagram 5w4. I'm researching what that means, before designing t-shirt art about it.
"I feel no shame in making lavish use of the strongest muscles, namely male ones (but my own strongest muscle is dedicated to the service of men - noblesse oblige). I don't begrudge men one whit of their natural advantages as long as they respect mine. I am not an unhappy pseudomale; I am female and like it that way." RAH
Charming. The gentleman I referred to earlier ended his little barrage with "Don't bother to reply. Ur clearly an attention whore like all the other bitches on this site. Guess seeing all these messages really feeds your ego."
Never mind that the whole thing happened while I was in a meeting at work. The way I see it, these people are doing us a favor by showing their true colors early. Wouldn't it be nice if they could find each other? I see dating as an experiment in finding a compatible partner; not forcing someone to become one. Let the people who want children find each other. Let the people who need constant communication find each other. I know what I'm looking for and I won't be changed, but I'm also not trying to change anyone.
Also I don't have a lot of access to Wi-fi that isn't a government server. Hate to say anything with SexLife in the address tends to go over like a brick with the IT guys. So I apologize if I'm not updating as needed. Usually I get an awesome answer without having to.
Here's what I've been "thinking" after reading the AWESOME responses.
Even in relationships, I fall back on years of Critical Management training. Meaning if it can go wrong, it will... and don't panic over the little stuff. But don't ignore that little stuff, that's how you get killed.
My personal theory is that I struggle coming from a world where an Order is the Law. Spend 70 hours a week living a lifestyle like that, one with protocols and SOPs for every scenario. Where if I give an order I expect it to be followed, or in the worst case scenario someone better come up with a better idea...then have someone walk over MY set boundaries doesn't go over well. I don't see it as a Shit Test, I see it as complete betrayal. I need to learn to separate the two. See it as what it is, and shut it down. Without taking as a personal attack.
Also I need a vacation!
I have been ignoring the little things (and its gonna get me killed). So many factors in my job are life and death that I can easily shut my brain off in a personal situation. I am guilty of ignoring a small problem until it becomes a big problem and gets my attention. So when a woman is toeing a line I probably won't notice until she is hopping back and forth.
Not sure how to improve at that except that vacation is sounding better and better and taking some time to stabilize priorities.
Something about how you're picking women is selecting for needy / clingy / BSC.
Here's a question: do you always select for the hottest woman who will date you? As a rule of thumb, if someone is hot and is ostensibly looking for a relationship but is still single, there's a reason for it. And while that reason could very well be something relatively innocuous-- she's got a job that makes it a logistical PitA to date her, she's an introvert whose lifestyle doesn't lend itself to meeting lots of new people, she lives in or just moved away from an area where the demographics are/were stacked against her, she just got out of an LTR and is new to dating again-- if you can't tell what it is, it's at least possible that it's that she's hiding some BSC.
Your problem isn't communicating your boundaries; if anything, the fact that you go to such over-the-top lengths to do so tells BSC women that you historically have trouble enforcing them and invites them to test them.
Your problem is learning to identify BSC early, and then refraining from sticking your dick in crazy.
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
Ultimately this is a good problem for you to have, it shows she is very interested and chasing you, now it's up to you to maintain frame. Agree that violation of #1 comes across as really needy and very unattractive, but she's doing it anyway. Emotion always trumps logic in the female world.
So you are left with 3 choices;
1) get bent out of shape because your application of logic ("don't do rule #1") is ignored by her emotions because she desires your attention and NEXT an interested but misbehaving woman. Don't try to counter emotion with logic, don't try to get out in front of her emotions with your logic. Neither will work. Both will result in failure. She is not responsible for enforcing your boundaries.
2) put up with her needy behavior in violation of #1 without training her in what she could be doing better, continue to become more exasperated while losing attraction and respect for her, and eventually dump her. This isn't really leading and is just you passively allowing her to auger herself in while you somewhat roll into her frame.
3) help her help herself by a) not accepting bullshit behavior from her, or rewarding said bad behavior, and b) telling her that she's on a timeout, why she is on a timeout, what the better options for her are and reinforcing the positive response that happen in the future from her better actions, and you'll be helping her learn. Strong lead gives you strong results.