My (Success) Story

Athol_Kay

redheaded_woman said:

I can't imagine what in the world made your wife tell you the guy was getting married!!

I'm just so surprised she would bring him up at all. That was a boneheaded move on her part.

She possibly thought that would have been "good news" to @Fredless in that the OM is now further off the market et al.

AlphaBelle

Also trying to show you that she isn't jealous or upset that he has attached himself to someone else.  That she isn't brooding over him. That she's trying to keep everything about that guy out in the open between the two of you. 

Ulysses

@fredless I wish I had wisdom to give you but you're a wiser man than I am. Your story moves me and I admire you for how you are handling it.

On the trust issue, I hear you, and my heart goes out to you. But if I remember right it took several years with you more-or-less checked out of the marriage and a situation with multiple alarm bells before she went over the line. You're not dealing with a serial cheater here, but a person who needed a whole lot of time and the perfect opportunity before she had an affair.

It's clear from your comments here and in another thread that you are still considering, at least as a fantasy, trying to start over with another woman. That may be the right choice, I'd be tempted too if I were you, you'd probably do very well on the dating market. But it certainly sounds like you and your wife are working hard to make the present and future better than the past. Two wounded people who basically get along and are trying hard despite the scars, and who know each other's flaws so there won't be any bad surprises... That's not a bad formula.

We all acquire wounds and baggage as we go forward, inside our marriages and out. Hopefully the good outweighs the bad.

fredless

@Ulysses said:

fredless I wish I had wisdom to give you but you're a wiser man than I am. Your story moves me and I admire you for how you are handling it.

I think this post shows you possess a certain amount of wisdom.

On the trust issue, I hear you, and my heart goes out to you. But if I remember right it took several years with you more-or-less checked out of the marriage and a situation with multiple alarm bells before she went over the line. You're not dealing with a serial cheater here, but a person who needed a whole lot of time and the perfect opportunity before she had an affair.

Nicely stated.  You're right and it's a good reminder to me.  She's not a serial cheater.  The thing is, if any of you met my wife and really got to know her, you'd never believe it possible that she entered into an affair.  It's just not who she is (well, [chuckle] except that she did have an affair).  I think that this, in part, is what makes it so difficult for me.  It's still hard to wrap my mind around the fact that this wonderful woman had an affair that lasted years.  Logically, I know that my actions/behaviors/beliefs created an atmosphere that permitted/encouraged the affair--it's the visceral pain of the affair that sometimes over rides all of that.

It's clear from your comments here and in another thread that you are still considering, at least as a fantasy, trying to start over with another woman. That may be the right choice, I'd be tempted too if I were you, you'd probably do very well on the dating market.

You're right here, as well.  The fantasy of it all has entered into my mind...particularly as I watched what Middleman was experiencing.  My thoughts ran to how he clearly is going through a very painful time right now.  But in a year or so, I really think much of that pain will be ameliorated by an active and exciting social life.  He will not have the daily reminder of his betrayal.  In contrast, by staying with my wife, I have literally daily reminders.  And sometimes, I just want that pain/anger to go away.

But it certainly sounds like you and your wife are working hard to make the present and future better than the past. Two wounded people who basically get along and are trying hard despite the scars, and who know each other's flaws so there won't be any bad surprises... That's not a bad formula.

We all acquire wounds and baggage as we go forward, inside our marriages and out. Hopefully the good outweighs the bad.

And herein lies the truth of it all.  I made mistakes.  My wife made mistakes.  We both have some terrible regrets.  We both are trying very hard.  We both choose each other.  We both love each other.

Thank you for your post.  I found it very helpful.

Tiger_Lily

I, too, was deeply moved by your story and admire the strength and wisdom you have shown.  

I, too, am the wronged spouse of a good guy who you would never think would have ever had an affair.  I have come to understand what I had done to make that possible, even though the responsibility for the act itself is his alone.

I don't recall how much time has passed since your discovery of the full extent of her affair.  Eventually though, there comes a time when these questions and conversations may become counter-productive - assuming you have decided to forgive and stay in this marriage.  After the decision point, continuing to hold this over her head, picking the old scabs, may do damage to your and her ability to rebuild.

If you haven't made your decision and are still processing, that is, of course, your absolute right.  I would just caution you not to require from her a full and complete understanding and acknowledgment of the damage she has done as a condition of you staying.  You won't get it.  They don't ever get there, not fully.  It's not fair but it's just a fact of life.

fredless

@Tiger_Lily said:

I, too, was deeply moved by your story and admire the strength and wisdom you have shown.  

I, too, am the wronged spouse of a good guy who you would never think would have ever had an affair.  I have come to understand what I had done to make that possible, even though the responsibility for the act itself is his alone.

I don't recall how much time has passed since your discovery of the full extent of her affair. 

It's been about a year.  My wife did not know that I knew the full extent until April 2015.

Eventually though, there comes a time when these questions and conversations may become counter-productive - assuming you have decided to forgive and stay in this marriage.  After the decision point, continuing to hold this over her head, picking the old scabs, may do damage to your and her ability to rebuild.

Since April 2015, I've had two subsequent conversations with my wife about the affair.  I am working hard to move forward in my marriage with my wife.


If you haven't made your decision and are still processing, that is, of course, your absolute right.  I would just caution you not to require from her a full and complete understanding and acknowledgment of the damage she has done as a condition of you staying.  You won't get it.  They don't ever get there, not fully.  It's not fair but it's just a fact of life.

As I noted above, in my last discussion with my wife, I was not going to ask all of the questions I had for three reasons:  I don't trust her to be completely honest; I think there will be some re-writing of history/rationalizing her behavior and while she won't be lying, neither will she be telling the truth; and I think it will serve no purpose for me to know all the gory details.

This last time I discussed the affair with my wife, I really felt I had to do so.  I know that she will never understand the extent of the pain/damage she has caused with her actions.  However, I had to attempt to communicate some of that.  I also wanted to ask the two questions I did ask.  And again, this discussion also flowed from the blog post I sent my wife that Athol wrote.  I sent that to her because I really need to communicate where I am at in this process and what she can do to help our marriage heal.

MiddleMan

What hurts, reading this, is how your wife wanted you back....

fredless

@MiddleMan said:

What hurts, reading this, is how your wife wanted you back....

I guess for you and I, at different times, the grass appears greener on the other side.

shrek2016

@fredless This is such a powerful story I'm completely blown away. Your strength and dignity are an inspiration! I wonder if you would care to provide an update on how things are going for you these days?

I also had a couple questions I've been wanting to ask you about your reconciliation process.

First, you mentioned that since almost no one knows about this, you have no one to talk to about it, and so you have to shoulder this burden alone (I can relate!!!). If I read correctly, you are very close to your brother but chose not to inform him of the affair to spare his friendship with your wife. But it sounds like your brother might be exactly the kind of person in your life that could help with your healing. It's certainly understandable that you didn't want to involve him (boy, I can relate), but if the situation were reversed and he was the one hurting, don't you think that you would want to know?

Second point, it sounds like your wife is still in denial / rationalizing / compartmentalizing mode, and still does not fully comprehend the magnitude of her betrayal (she seems fixated on the "friending" incident, as if the years-long sexual affair itself was just a footnote). A couple of her comments are jaw-dropping for their total lack of self-awareness or sensitivity. I wonder if the fact that she apparently never had to provide a full disclosure has allowed her to avoid facing the full enormity of her actions? 

So did you ever consider asking her to write letters to family members (her parents?) confessing to the affair and the devastating affect that it's had on you? Even if you never actually forced her to read the letters to them, just the act of writing about the damage she caused might help snap her out of the denial?

Also, since you understandably want to avoid knowing all the tawdry details of her affair, have you considered asking an MC to administer the process of a full disclosure journal from her including a detailed timeline? Again, being forced to address the horrific details might help her to face reality, and you would be spared the process and could access as little (or none) of the details in private with the MC. 

Be well, and thank you for sharing your story.

fredless

@shrek2016 ;


I have considered writing an update as it a fair amount of time has passed since my last update.  I think I will do this.  Let me just say this, my wife and I have had several in depth conversations, particularly after we both read "Not Just Friends."   I now know a great deal about the course of the affair and beyond and my wife has a much better idea of the damage she has done.  I assert it's impossible to have a full understanding without being a cheated on spouse.  Talking to my brother would most definitely destroy the relationship between him and my wife.

Give me a week or two and I will post a more thorough update.

fredless

Update--Part 1:

My last update was in November 2015.  I had written a different update but I felt it was too long.  If anyone has specific questions, I’ll answer any question.  Feel free to ask.

Simply, this has been a very difficult year for me with many highs and lows.  My emotions have run the gamut of being genuinely happy to be with my wife to feelings that have included anger, betrayal, hurt, and humiliation.  These feelings brought me to really dark places at times. 

Now there have been many positives.  We continue to have pretty amazing sex, typically four and sometimes five times in a week.  The quality of our sex continues to improve.   It is a given we are going out on Saturday for our date night.  We do fun things together.  I am clearly the leader of the family and my wife is happily my First Officer.  I’ve heard her brag about me.  She compliments me in ways that she never did.

At other times, I’d enter the dark places where I’d wonder if my wife truly wanted to be with me or if she was settling.  I’ve had trouble trusting my judgment in this matter because I thought we were in a great place in 04/15 when The Facebook Incident took place.  I’d also wonder, at times, if I still wanted to be married to her. 

It was also apparent to me that my wife had little idea of the damage she has caused.  I have specific examples if others are curious but I’m certain she did not have a good understanding. 

In looking for solutions/assistance, I came across the book, “Not Just Friends.”  Parts of that book really spoke to me.  I asked my wife to read it and she obtained it and read it immediately.  She has consistently said that she will do whatever is necessary to make our marriage work and except for a couple of errors, her actions have shown this to be true.

So after we had both read the book, we had a couple of discussions.  I asked many questions about her affair and her relationship with Rob.  I learned about her affair and how it developed.  I believe her when she said it wasn’t planned.  It was a slow process and over time, they fell “in love.”  Rob had wanted my wife to divorce me and be with her.  During this conversation she asserted that she did not leave me because of our sons—which was different than what she originally told me at the time of the Facebook Incident.  She said that this was the reason she gave to Rob and he told her that he was a child of divorce and he turned out fine.  However, she didn’t budge on ending our marriage to be with him.  Eventually, he started dating and as noted in the previous installments, he knocked up his baby momma (Fall 2007) and tried to make it work with her while my wife continued to pine for him. 

For a time after this, I felt better.  But soon after, those feelings of anger began creeping in.  I continued to find myself in the dark places.  I’d wake up at night, not be able to fall asleep, and I’d get up for a couple of hours.  I didn’t know why.  I mean, I understood how the affair developed.  While I did not (and don’t) excuse my wife’s behaviors and choices, I really believe that she is a good person.  Again, I know how my behaviors and actions decreased her attraction to me and how my blue pill trust made it easy for her to engage in an affair.  So why was I still so angry/hurt, etc.?  I felt that it should be improving and it just didn’t feel that way.

And then it hit me…my anger is the result of her attempting to bring Rob back into her life in 2013 and in particular, in 2015.  It seems obvious now, and maybe it’s been obvious to some of you, but at the time, it was like I turned a light on.

Like I said, I understand her affair—I understand how it happened.  But in 2013, our marriage was significantly improved.  In April 2015, our marriage was (I thought) really strong.  And yet, she was risking bringing him back into her life at the potential cost of our marriage.  Now again, logically, I believe that her accepting Rob’s facebook friend request was in part her unconsciously giving me the opportunity to quash her relationship with Rob and cement my role as the leader in our family.  I believe that another reason was the fantasy view she held of Rob and how she ‘loved’ him.  As I continued to process her accepting this friend request, a lot of thoughts entered into my mind:

--If my wife truly felt guilt or shame or remorse about her affair, she would have never accepted this request.  She would have blocked him and had no contact with him.  The only guilt/shame/remorse she experiences is because she is now aware that I now know of her affair; she feels bad about the pain she has caused me and the damage she has done our marriage.  She actually feels no guilt/remorse/shame about her behavior.  If she did, she would not have accepted that friend request in the first place.

--If she was really “all in” in our marriage and it was as good as I thought, why did she accept the friend request and potentially restart the affair?  Put aside her wanting me to quash it—she should have been able to do this on her own.  Was she just settling for me?

--Even though our marriage seemed strong, was her behavior now just to keep me around because she couldn’t do any better?  After all, she was willing to stay with me in the past when she ‘loved’ another man.  Was she going to waste another ten years of my life and I find out in my 60s that she was just settling for me?

--I had mapped well and hard by April 2015.  I was the most awesome I had ever been and in the best shape of my life.  If that wasn’t enough to keep my wife from potentially straying, why am I still with her?  Do I want to continue this marriage?

 

I needed my wife to know all of this.  I needed her to have some real understanding of what she has done—the pain she has caused. And I wanted her to answer to a question that I don’t really think she can….”Why did you facebook friend the guy you had an affair with?"

fredless

Update (Part 2)

In any event, we had an in-depth and painful (but I feel necessary) discussion in early September 2016.  This was one of those conversations where I didn’t hold back.  It wasn’t an angry discussion or one where I took cheap shots or where she got defensive.  I just needed to let her know all about my various thoughts/feelings and try, as best as I could, to really inform her of the impact of her actions.

 I started the conversation with my wife by telling her I had one more question for her regarding the affair.  I told her that I understood how the affair started, my role in losing her attraction and making the affair easy to carry out, etc.  That being said, I do not excuse the behavior.  I told her that her affair was the worst thing anyone has ever done to me—by far.  For the first time (at least in my presence), she became tearful when I said this.  This was pretty powerful because she knows of incidents in my childhood along with issues with my parents that have happened that are pretty bad.

And then I said to her, “You’ve had to time to think about this. Time has passed.  Really, honestly, why did you Facebook friend Rob?” 

I know, I know—she is never going to provide me with a satisfying answer.  But I still had to ask, again.

My wife told me that she did so because she felt bad for him because of his woman leaving him and he was reaching out to her.  Yea…I called bullshit on this pretty directly.  I simply said, “I don’t believe that for a minute.” I didn’t pursue this response either as I could see it was fruitless. 

I did, however, let her into my pain…really let her into it.  I told her how it felt that my wife wanted to be with a man who pretended to be friends with me and our children all the while trying to convince her to leave me and destroy our family.  She preferred to be with a man with no integrity. A man of real integrity would have walked away as soon as feelings started developing.  At a minimum, he would have made himself scarce around our home if he had any integrity.  And he certainly would not have twice tried to insert himself into my family again with the hopes of destroying it if he had any integrity.  And this is the man you wanted over me.

I also said to her that I believe that she has no remorse or shame about her affair.  I told her that if she did, she would never have accepted his friend request.  I told her directly that she feels remorse for hurting me, but that is all.  There were other things I said and my wife listened and accepted them.  I think, as best she can, she understands the pain she has caused and the damage she has done.

 

So where are we now? 

I’m relatively certain our marriage is going to thrive.  We both work at it.  We work hard at it.  I continue to inject new experiences into our marriage.  We get ‘The Fantasy Box’ delivered to our home every other month.  I recently bought us both kayaks.  We went away for our anniversary to an ocean front suite in a nice hotel.  I took her to the beach at night and knocked a fantasy off of her bucket list.  We have really good fun together.  We have really good sex with each other.  I lead and she happily follows.  She is a great First Mate.  Overall, my life now is really is good. 

It’s just that I have this scab now.  And every now and then, unexpectedly, I bump into something and rip it off.  And that really hurts.  But I’m working really hard on accepting that it’s going to always be there.

And again, I'm happy to answer any questions.

CartB4Horse

@fredless - Your success is awesome, you've done a ton of hard work and are 'paying it forward' to so many people here on MMSL. My Ex-wife had an affair 15 years ago. I am still affected by her behavior/actions even though we are divorced. In some way being betrayed is like having cold sores, it's always there.

sf64

fredless,

Kudos for you for the strength, wisdom and courage you have shown in your journey.  And for having the courage to share with everyone here both your highs and your lows.

In late 2013, I wrote about the concept of Chronic Sorrow (here's the link).  It was first identified by Dr. Olshansky in the early 60's in his research about how parents deal with caring for severely disabled kids.

The following is taken from the website, www.chronicsorrow.org


Any event that magnifies the loss and disparity between reality and the life once dreamed of can trigger the profound sadness known as chronic sorrow. While chronic sorrow is pervasive, permanent, and periodical in nature, it is also interwoven between times of happiness and satisfaction.

Anger, frustration and confusion are common emotions expressed by parents or caregivers experiencing chronic sorrow. While the presence of anger is recognized in bereavement, it is often not understood in chronic sorrow. As a result, when parents exhibit anger suddenly, and out of character, healthcare professionals, friends and family members may withdraw and judge the parental behavior as inappropriate. This can lead to an adversarial relationship. 

When an event or situation triggers chronic sorrow, parents or caregivers may exhibit symptoms similar to depression including profound sadness, anger, frustration and guilt. However, chronic sorrow is not clinical depression.

While I am not a mental health professional, I talked about this concept a great deal in my therapy and I believe there are many aspects of the concept that apply to both divorce and affair recovery.  My struggle was to let go of the past and create a new "imagined future" for myself and my family.

Your old imagined future was shattered by the affair.  But you have to opportunity to create a new imagined future.  In my case, it wasn't until I could articulate a new imagined future that I could truly let go of the old one.  The old one will linger until you replace it.

fredless

@sf64 said:

Your old imagined future was shattered by the affair.  But you have to opportunity to create a new imagined future.  In my case, it wasn't until I could articulate a new imagined future that I could truly let go of the old one.  The old one will linger until you replace it.

This is interesting and I see how it applies.  I think I have been (with my wife) creating a new imagined future.  We've actually discussed in depth our retirement plans including where we will retire, the type of home we'll purchase at that time, activities we will do to give us a reason to get out of bed, etc.

I will think more on this and read more fully about this concept.  Thank you.

shrek2016

Great update - thanks for writing this. A couple questions / comments:

The only guilt/shame/remorse she experiences is because she is now aware that I now know of her affair

That sounds like an almost clinical definition of a sociopath / narcissist. Have you asked her point blank if she truly regrets what she did? If so, do you believe her? And if not, then what?

It wasn't an angry conversation or one where I took cheap shots or where she got defensive.

Considering what she’s done, it’s hard to imagine what she could possibly be "defensive" about. She seems to be enjoying her great marriage to a great husband after she did everything possible to destroy it. Does she actually try to defend this? 

For the first time (at least in my presence) she became tearful.

Holy shit! She's never even shed a tear? It's inconceivable that she’s not emotionally shattered by seeing the pain she’s inflicted on her own husband. Does she show genuine concern for your healing and well being?

she is never going to provide me with a satisfying answer.  I didn't pursue this response either as I could see it was fruitless

It sounds like her attitude is basically "Sorry but talking about this makes me really uncomfortable, so it would be a lot easier if you just continued to suffer in silence". If her answers (or lack of answers) are unsatisfying, have you considered taking some additional actions - marriage counseling, insisting on answers in writing, or a full confession to a trusted friend of family member? 

that really hurts. But I'm working really hard on accepting that it's going to always be there.

Do you feel she’s working as hard as you are? Have you ever told her directly that it's her responsibility to make amends for the damage she did? In fact, have there ever been any real consequences for her of any kind?

It sucks that you’ve had to go though this but it seems like you’ve built a really good marriage in spite of everything - one that most people would envy. Take care of yourself and good luck with your journey.

fredless

@shrek2016

I certainly harbor a good deal of anger/hurt and I'm working on that.  However, it seems you are also dealing with much anger.  I will respond to your questions/comments but you may wish to explore this in further detail as it is difficult to move forward with an anchor of anger weighing you down.

shrek2016 said:

Great update - thanks for writing this. A couple questions / comments:

The only guilt/shame/remorse she experiences is because she is now aware that I now know of her affair

That sounds like an almost clinical definition of a sociopath / narcissist. Have you asked her point blank if she truly regrets what she did? If so, do you believe her? And if not, then what? 
My wife certainly has her flaws but she's not a sociopath/narcissist.  From her writings to her friend, she clearly rationalized her affair as my fault for taking her for granted.  She had to do this to protect her image of herself.  It's hard to look in the mirror and realize that you don't have the integrity/loyalty/character you thought you did.  I believe that if she regretted her affair in total, she would not have accepted the friend request in 04/15.  I truly believe that she regrets the pain she has caused me and the damage she did our marriage.  I have not asked her point blank about remorse because she will certainly say 'Yes' because she knows that is what she should say.  I watch actions--not words

It wasn't an angry conversation or one where I took cheap shots or where she got defensive.

Considering what she’s done, it’s hard to imagine what she could possibly be "defensive" about. She seems to be enjoying her great marriage to a great husband after she did everything possible to destroy it. Does she actually try to defend this?

I have a good deal of experience dealing with people.  It is very common for individuals who have fucked up big time to become very defensive to protect their image of themselves and to deflect blame.  This is human nature.  She has never presented as defensive to me or to defend what she has done with me.

For the first time (at least in my presence) she became tearful.

Holy shit! She's never even shed a tear? It's inconceivable that she’s not emotionally shattered by seeing the pain she’s inflicted on her own husband. Does she show genuine concern for your healing and well being?

My wife is not a crier.  I have seen pain on her face and in her actions.  During our discussions, she told me she was aware when I was descending into 'dark places,' and when I would get up in the middle of the night because I couldn't sleep.  She has not once backed away from a conversation about her affair--anytime I have brought it up.

she is never going to provide me with a satisfying answer.  I didn't pursue this response either as I could see it was fruitless

It sounds like her attitude is basically "Sorry but talking about this makes me really uncomfortable, so it would be a lot easier if you just continued to suffer in silence". If her answers (or lack of answers) are unsatisfying, have you considered taking some additional actions - marriage counseling, insisting on answers in writing, or a full confession to a trusted friend of family member?

I am never going to require her to 'confess' to a trusted friend or family member.  Ever.  It would appear that the primary goal there is to simply cause her humiliation and I know she already feels that.  She has never required I suffer in silence.  She knows she hurt me badly and she does not know how to fix it.  She does not bring up her affair but she has always entered into conversation when I have brought it up.  She has answered every question I have asked--and there were some hard questions.  I honestly believe that she does not fully understand why she accepted the friend request on 04/15.  I think she thought that they could just be friends.  I think she believed (and needed to see) me squash this 'friendship' in a way I never did so that she could know that the changes in me were real.  She could certainly have attempted to restart her affair in a manner that was much more secretive and less likely that I would discover. 

that really hurts. But I'm working really hard on accepting that it's going to always be there.

Do you feel she’s working as hard as you are? Have you ever told her directly that it's her responsibility to make amends for the damage she did? In fact, have there ever been any real consequences for her of any kind?
She has essentially done everything I have asked her.  Everything.  The primary consequences is that she knows that I think less of integrity/loyalty.  She knows that I will never trust her as I once did.  What other consequences, aside from divorce, make sense? 

It sucks that you’ve had to go though this but it seems like you’ve built a really good marriage in spite of everything - one that most people would envy. Take care of yourself and good luck with your journey.

As I said, I still have a lot of anger and hurt.  It's better than it was and not as good as it will be.  But I've come to accept it will always be there to a degree.  My choice is to commit myself to my marriage and to someone I view as a good woman who really made some extremely poor and selfish choices--or get a divorce.  Her actions, not her words, are what has made me commit to our marriage.  Should her actions change, so would my commitment.