MMSL Primed for amateur anthropology

Pen_and_Sword

On Labor Day my family went to a small nearby lake. Beautiful day, beautiful place. Not crowded, but busy, and people of both genders at SR ranging from Ugly to Attractive (and one "Damn!," but once I put my glasses on and saw she was almost certainly jailbait, I just don't want to go there. I'm old enough to make that gross.) Lots more bikinis and larger biceps than we typically get at our local pool.

So there's the setting.

On the way back to the van, we pass a group of four people sitting around a pickup tailgate - three guys, and one woman, all about ten years older than us, smoking cigars. My wife is first, I'm walking last in line, carrying heavy stuff, and the obviously AMOG calls to my kids, "You guys are having way too much fun."

His choice of words made that a stupid comment; combined with the cigars and beer-bellies it would usually have made me snort in disdain for the stupidity of frat boys that never matured. 

But this time I realized two things:

1. He was being alpha. Not especially intelligently, but morally no better or worse than the robin that sits in our crab-apple tree and chirps his head off at other passing birds. We moved through his space, he made sure we knew it. 
2. He momentarily put me into HIS frame. I found myself scrambling for something clever to return. And I have trouble returning clever for dull. It's much easier to riff off something well-placed. I couldn't come up with anything, so for the dozen steps while we were in his zone of influence, he was dominant.

I now think I would have done best to say something like, "How's it going?" in a slightly amused tone. By ignoring the words of his comment, it would have acknowleged the actual chest-beating purpose without ceding any frame control.

What do you think? (Paging @Chief_TC, @Tennee, @Husband3point0, and the rest of you natural alphas.) 

But wait, there's more:

As we loaded the van, my wife caught my eye, nodded back to the truck, and rolled her eyes so hard you could just about hear it. As usual, she only saw stupid frat boys who never matured. Back in the van, before we pulled out, she leaned over to kiss me and very deliberately gave me a LOT of tongue. No complaints here!

She clearly wanted to make a point, though, and I'm not sure why. 

Was she subconsciously tuned into the dominance aspects of that interaction, and providing some relationship comfort?

Or was she responding to the dramatic increase of sexual "competition" that surrounded us that afternoon?

Obviously, you can't read her mind via the magic of the internet. But what does the "bell curve" say? I'm really curious to hear opinions. 

Angeline

How hot was the girl that was with them? That might have been the gasoline to your wife's mateguarding.

I think occasionally ignoring the doofus is the strength play.

Athol_Kay

@Jen_Kay does that deep kiss thing to me after she reads about some disaster of a husband someone else writes about on the forum.

Husband3point0

Athol_Kay said:

@Jen_Kay does that deep kiss thing to me after she reads about some disaster of a husband someone else writes about on the forum.

Too bad my wife didn't come here first. Her triage might've gotten you about a month of tantric sex 24x7. 

SignorePillolaRossa

Your wife let you know that she knows that she married well

Husband3point0

One of the underplayed A&A cards is actually to just go full on straight man btw. You don't always need to find a snappy answer to his question, just reply like it's a normal conversation -- 

Yeah, they had a good time. Last day of summer before crushing homework though. Y'know?

And leave it at that. Sometimes "agree and add" without amplification works just fine. You don't always need to one-up the guy in order to disarm him. 


[I am still stunned at the idea that I'm a natural alpha btw. Like completely floored.]

Katt

SignorePillolaRossa said:

Your wife let you know that she knows that she married well

Agree.   Anytime I see (or read about) a guy being a complete jackass, it makes me appreciate my husband more LOL

Tennee

First off, you did fine and W's actions confirm that.  'Ignore the Doofus' played just fine here.   That said:

Doofus:  "You guys are having way too much fun."
P&S:  /slows, looks both ways, and then with an evil grin says to doofus "The kids had a good time, but I tell ya, the wife and I sneaked off and did some naked rock-climbing - it was friggin' awsome!"

Or some such silliness. Something ridiculously outrageous with a huge grin.  I A&A crap like this, but that's generally easy for me to do.  But do it in a funny, engaging manner - not coming off like a smack-down to him.  Good-natured humor here does two things:  1) announces loudly 'aint intimidated, Doofus' and 2) gets his peeps, and him, laughing with and acknowledging YOU. 

After you get 'em laughing, relate a quick story:  'We were here once and slayed some trout' or 'this place reminds me of XYZ where we hunt' or 'W and I hiked out West once, beautiful trails, like here' or something and then proceed on your way with a smile. 

Who's the AMOG now, Beeyotch? 

ETA:  Take my advice with a grain of salt - I think being a grown-up sucks and I refuse to do it anymore than is absolutely, completely necessary...the rounds of shooters at my BBQ this past weekend is ample evidence in support of that...

Athol_Kay

Pen_and_Sword said:

My wife is first, I'm walking last in line, carrying heavy stuff, and the obviously AMOG calls to my kids, "You guys are having way too much fun."

"You gotta wear them out."

*wink*

Husband3point0

I'm going to disagree with @Tennee slightly though -- if you don't have that natural wise-ass within you, don't go grasping for some ultimate reply that you're not going to come up with quickly. 

The other dude is trying to establish his frame as the active one. That doesn't mean you need to try and upstage him and take him over necessarily and force him into yours. That's the type of zero sum thinking that gets many people upset because they're not some sort of natural wise-ass to begin with. So, they struggle searching for the ultimate come-back and wind up getting flustered, frustrated and mad when they don't.

All you have to do is keep your frame and not get dragged into his. 

I could come up with a Cyrano de Bergerac-style list of witty replies, but that won't help you long-term. Long-term, you need to establish your strong frame and the reply which plays to your natural strengths and is easily maintained. 

Adopting someone else's mannerisms starts to feel like you're jammed into a borrowed suit. Ask me how I know...

Rorschach

Generally I just ignore dumbasses completely, like they're invisible, so long as they're not saying anything offensive to or around wife and/or child. Like I need to spend a millisecond thinking about what a dumbass says? Uh, no. So, I think it was all good.

Tennee

@Husband3point0 said:

Long-term, you need to establish your strong frame and the reply which plays to your natural strengths and is easily maintained. 

Adopting someone else's mannerisms starts to feel like you're jammed into a borrowed suit. Ask me how I know...

QFT.  It is you.  Then this starts to become second-nature, and its your default frame. 

redheaded_woman

What makes this guy "alpha" versus just being friendly?

jacamo

Long time reader, seldom commenter, but this struck a cord. Not everyone is trying to "piss down your back and tell you it's raining"(Outlaw Jose Wales).  I agree with @redheaded_woman, and @generalzod, be that guy, this was an attempt to be chatty/had a few beers outgoing, no harm no foul no need to over think it. If your witty have at it if not smile/laugh move on. 

That said, this blog and forum have been good for me. Found the blog in 2010 maybe half a dozen posts or so in.  Athol was still trying to dial it in himself. It was too late for my marriage, but enlightening none the less.  Congrats to the Kays for forging this into a helpful and productive venture. Maybe someday I'll write my story it's only fair I suppose.  Been struggling lately so not sure if I could take the 2X4's haha. Be well people, and thanks for the wisdom and courage!

Reborn

generalzod said:

I think the term AMOG gets thrown around too much.  ...  Think about the ones you've crossed paths with in your life.  On a day-to-day basis, they leave a trail of +1 interactions with everyone they come into contact with each day.  They drop dopamine hits on people like crazy.  Hell, they even turn shitty situations into positive interactions with charisma, humor, and candor.

Yes, this!

Too many people in the manosphere seem to think that being "alpha" or "AMOG" means putting other people down, intimidating them, making them feel bad, etc etc. 

Reborn

redheaded_woman said:

What makes this guy "alpha" versus just being friendly?

To a large extent that would all be in the tone, facial expression, non verbals etc

HildaCorners

A simple, non-A&A comeback that is friendly but not low-rank:

Him: You guys are having way too much fun.

You: <slow look in his direction, with an "Oh, were you talking to me?" look> Yup. We sure were. <end with sly grin, and an "But I'm not going to tell you" look>

The two looks alone, without the words, would work too.

Pen_and_Sword

Oh, wow. Thanks for all the response, folks. I've learned a lot - not sure I can respond to everyone, but I'd like to, so here goes:

@Angeline - Good thought, but she was only average. Kind of leathery. In retrospect, and considering my wife's response, I think ignoring the guy (instead of mumbling whatever it was I said) would have been a perfectly strong response, as you, @Tennee, and @Rorschach said. (I think my wife didn't hear me, so I got credit for this.)

Thanks to @Athol_Kay, @SignorePillolaRossa, and @Katt for explaining my wife's reaction. That possibility never crossed my mind - now it seems the most likely. Cool. 

To clarify for... most everyone else... I don't think the guy was being malicious at all. I think he was being chatty, friendly, and outgoing. It seems to me that an active, outgoing frame trumps a passive, quiet frame in dominance. So I'm partly taking notes, because being more outgoing and friendly, and alpha, is high on my list of MAP priorities. 

I called him AMOG because it was clearly his truck, his woman, and the other guys were obviously orbiting him. Presumably because they got some energy lift from the association. But I'm ok with using that phrase less if it leads to confusion.

But, @generalzod is at least partly right: The irony of the situation is, because I'm trying to improve my own alpha quotient, I wanted to compete with him, and that put me into his frame.

I loved reading the hilarious and playful ripostes suggested by @Tennee and @Athol_Kay. That's exactly what I was looking for, to expand my thinking. But for now, @Husband3point0 has my personality pretty well pegged, and I agree it's better NOT to compete, and not to feel the need to.  (As said or implied by pretty much everyone here.)

I actually like @HildaCorners suggestion best, partly because it gets the whole job done without requiring me to stop and make the family wait, and partly because it's a straight-man answer with an achievable-feeling edge to the attitude. That's something I can shoot for.  

Thanks everyone. Good talk. :-)

(@Husband3point0 sorry for mis-labeling you. I mis-remembered your backstory based on your more current posts. My bad. But heck, take the compliment. I just re-read your old threads, and you have come a long, long way. I would never have guessed!)

Tennee

@Reborn said:

@generalzod said:

I think the term AMOG gets thrown around too much.  ...  Think about the ones you've crossed paths with in your life.  On a day-to-day basis, they leave a trail of +1 interactions with everyone they come into contact with each day.  They drop dopamine hits on people like crazy.  Hell, they even turn shitty situations into positive interactions with charisma, humor, and candor.

Yes, this!

Too many people in the manosphere seem to think that being "alpha" or "AMOG" means putting other people down, intimidating them, making them feel bad, etc etc. 

This is the Asshole Alpha, or A-AMOG.  No one wants to follow an asshole douche-bag, they're just afraid to challenge him.  The positive, confident, funny guy - the one GZ describes above?  That's who people WANT to follow, and it occurs naturally.   That's a true AMOG.

P&S - you'll find your frame. 

george

I never quite figure out what to say fast enough either.  

In general though I think you can just feel an AMOG around - some combination of social dominance and leadership. Or, the guy with the truck and the beer. They draw in "followers".  My personality type isn't a following type or a leading type - it's an  independant, go my own way, with a distrust of most AMOG types type.  It's interesting when I do interact with AMOGs because they don't know what to do with me. I don't want to challenge them for the position but I'm not going to follow either.  Those are the only options they seem to imagine. I notice that thet really don't like it at all. It just doesn't fit their worldview.

So I got used to interactions like this feeling "unfinished" or weird.  and I usually say somethinrg super clever like "hey".

redheaded_woman

It's possible to be "alpha" without being outgoing/ extroverted/ overtly friendly.

You don't have to completely change your natural personality to show confidence.

Confidence comes in many forms and not all of them have to be talkative.