TwoDogs Triage

frillyfun

The very first thing you need to do is rule-out medical.  If she's all of a sudden gotten super bitchy, and she's just given birth she may have some sort of post-partum depression or anxiety that she's dealing with.

Post-partum hormones can knock you for a loop.  Make sure she gets help because it's no fun to live in a constantly negative frame.

twodogs

frillyfun said:

The very first thing you need to do is rule-out medical.  If she's all of a sudden gotten super bitchy, and she's just given birth she may have some sort of post-partum depression or anxiety that she's dealing with.

Post-partum hormones can knock you for a loop.  Make sure she gets help because it's no fun to live in a constantly negative frame.

@frillyfun I've watched for that but she's been pretty consistent with her attitude before and after the kids.  Even before kids she was always tired.  She'd sleep most of the time when she was home.  Sometimes she would sleep the entire weekend.  I asked her multiple times to see a doctor to make sure it's not an issue but she never would.  She would stay up late then too so that may be what caused it.  On a typical Saturday before kids she may be up the night before until 3 a.m. reading, watching TV (or I later found out, occasionally watching porn), she'd sleep until noon, get up and eat a bowl of cereal and then go back to bed for a few more hours.  Then get up around 3 p.m.  Now with kids her schedule is much more normal.

twodogs

I'll post my triage in a new thread.  

twodogs

My Triage

1) Basic Questions
My age:  36
Her age:  35
Married for 10 years, together for 12
Two children, ages 2 ½ and 6 months 
When we got married I’d say her SR was an 8 and mine was a 7.  Now I’d say we’re both 5s.  She’s a 7 when she puts effort into it.  I have some work to do to get back to a 7.
She is a lean and healthy weight for her height.
I’m overweight.  I’m 6’1”, weigh about 250 lbs and have 22% bodyfat.  My lean and in-shape weight would be about 210.

Question Two – Rule Out Medical
No medical issues that we know about.  
She was on birth control for most of the marriage prior to trying for our first child.  I recently had a vasectomy so I don’t expect her to have to go on birth control again.  She has always had very irregular periods, so it is possible she could have to go back on birth control to make that more regular but her doctor never seemed concerned about it, so it isn’t likely.
We’re both in good overall health.
 
Question Three – Rule Out Structural Attraction Issues
This is an issue.  She’s very conservative and I’m an entrepreneur.  She married me when my business was doing well but the “Great Recession” put me out of business and forced me to get a real job.  I worked in sales and stayed no longer than 3 years at any one company.  I was able to double my salary during this time.  I was extremely unhappy being an employee and I made plans to start my own business again.  About a year ago I got so frustrated at work I quit.  I’ve now started that business and it is going well.  Stability of income is very important for her and I haven’t provided an environment that felt stable to her.  My new business is very conservative and stable in comparison to what I was doing when we got married.  I expect this to no longer be an issue.
We don’t have any debt and financially we’re in good shape.  I did make a huge mistake when we got married and tried to shield her from the struggles of my business when the recession hit.  I had a credit card that had about $3,500 of business expenses that I was trying to pay off without her knowing.  She found out and that shattered her trust for me financially.  Since then we’ve been very open about money.  We both have full online access to our financial accounts and we talk about them regularly.  We don’t have any debt except our home and my credit score is just over 800.  I’m still ashamed of hiding that debt from her but that’s been about 6 years ago now and I think I’ve been able to regain her trust.
We both own modest but nice cars that are paid for.  
I’m overweight and I’m a hairy guy.  Those two things make me embarrassed to take my shirt off around her.  She rarely sees me shirtless.  Really the only times are if we’re at the pool or beach, which isn’t often.
There are no other structural issues I can think of.
 
Question Four – Rule Out Critical Moments and Neglect
I’ve shut down the past 6-12 months and haven’t put any effort into us.  I’ve been a great father and done lots of things around the house but I haven’t even tried to make our relationship better.  Once the kids are asleep I’ve actually tried to stay away from her.  I know that has made her sad.
 
Question Five – Rule Out Outside Sexual Sources
I’ve monitored emails, texts, facebook and browser history and the only outside sexual source I’ve been able to find is porn.  I made the mistake of confronting her about this several times.  Now if she views it she probably knows to clear her history.
 
Question Six – When Did the Sex Go Bad?
It’s always been bad, even before we got married.  Even though she knows how important sex is to me she says in her opinion it’s not an important part of a relationship.
 
Question Seven – What Was the Sex Like at the Start of the Relationship?
She stopped having sex with me two months before we got married because she said it would make it more special on our wedding night.  Then on our wedding night she didn’t want to have sex.  She reluctantly agreed.  On our week long honeymoon we had pity sex twice.  After that the first few years it was sex once every week.  Since then it’s been every 2-3 weeks.  More recently it’s been about once a month.
She used to let me go down on her.  I enjoy it and she told me I’m very good at it.  I’d like to have foreplay and go down on her most of the times we have sex but we’ve gotten to the point where she won’t let me do anything other than missionary or doggy style.  She wants it over as quickly as possible and literally the second it’s over she gets up, gets dressed and leaves the room.  The entire time she acts like she’s mad that she has to let me have sex with her.  It’s made it so that I don’t even want to have sex with her anymore.  
 
Question Eight – What’s the Elephant in the Room?
There’s nothing else that I haven’t already shared.
 
Question Nine – Who is the Leader in your Marriage?
She is.  I used to lead and she would doubt and fight every decision I made.  It was exhausting.  Finally I just gave in and let her make the decisions.  
 
Question Ten – Tell Us About the Good Times
Sexually there never were good times.  There were better times than we have now, but not good.  When we were dating she was less bitter and seemed to respect me, so that was better.  

twodogs

redheaded_woman said:

And what are your responses when she says these things? Do you let her lead you into a full argument?

@redheaded_woman It's so frequent, the majority of the time I just act like it didn't happen.  Occasionally I will get frustrated and say something like, "I wish somebody would talk to you the way you talk to me so you would see how it feels."  I know that's not the right response and I need to stop reacting like that.

Hannelore said:

Did you ever phase 4 her and clearly state your expectations? 

You still need to overcome passive aggressive behavior.

Have  you gone to counseling or does any other 3rd party know about your marriage troubles? 

I dont really understand the logic behind waiting to divorce until she weans. So she can return to work?

@Hannelore I "sort of" phase 4'd her a while back.  By "sort of" that probably makes it not a true phase 4.  I have clearly stated my expectations several times.  You're absolutely right about needing to overcome my passive aggressive behavior.  

Never been to counseling but I will give that a try before actually throwing in the towel.  

The logic behind waiting to divorce until she weans is twofold.  So she can return to work full time.  Also, I would expect to get shared custody of our kids and it would be hard enough for her to not be with them half the time.  I wouldn't want to do that to her or my child while she's nursing.  

Katt said:

The MAP is for YOU, not for her.    

How about you try an updated triage, a real MAP, work on improving your frame and other problem areas, post here for accountability, and really give yourself and your marriage a chance?  

@Katt ;Great advice, thanks!  I'll try post an updated triage.

fordsvt said:

If she speaks in a condesceding way to you a lot of the time, then she knows it pisses you off. Which means your not keeping frame during these talks. 

@fordsvt You're right.  What's the right way to act when she talks to me like that?  Is it right to just act like it didn't happen and be OI?

Blackwulf said:

How much of your acting alpha was being a leader? What type of stuff does she want done for her?  A toddler and a new born?  You might be missing a lot of beta comfort.  

The whole respect issue come from not leading enough.

@Blackwulf She's always wanted everything done for her.  I make dinner, I do the laundry, bathe our children, we have someone who cleans our house for us.  She's lazy when it comes to doing things around the house.  She has gotten better recently, but still not good.  I think you're right about the respect issue coming from not leading.  I used to lead but she pushes back on everything.  I eventually just gave in and stopped fighting over everything and let her make the decisions.  She told me her previous relationships ended over constant bickering and I'm sure it was because she did the same thing but the guys she dated didn't tolerate it.

Howard said:

that usually means that efforts have been missing in important areas. When I started MAP, I though that because I was in better shape and looking good my wife should want to have sex with me. That wasn't it. I was missing leadership, creating no comfort in my marriage, and we have major structural issues mostly about money. That's the stuff Athol Kay helped me see. 

@Howard Great advice, thanks!

The_Dude

Why did she marry you.  You are clearly portraying her as not attracted to you even then. Did she need you in some other way?

The_Dude

Also, can you or one of the moderators rename this to "twodogs triage" or something. 

frillyfun

Having a baby is like hitting the reset button on a life as you know it, while also magnifying every little issue you had before babies.

If she had a touch of depression before babies then with the hormones it gets cranked up to 11, and now it's all pretty intolerable.

Get her to the doctors.  If she's saying awful things out loud imagine the stuff that must be floating around in her head.  It can't be good.

I have a touch of OCD, and after DS was born it turned into full-fledged post-partum anxiety that nearly ended our marriage.  I had this constant loop of hostility towards my husband running through my head almost 24/7- some of it was founded, and he needed to MAP to become a stronger Captain, but the intensity of my emotions was definitely over the top.

fordsvt

I think you may be quitting too soon.   One year of hard mapping may not be enough.  I've been at it for 19 months. I've only seen real movement in the past six months. 
From what you've wrote so far I see some things missing. 
Relation comfort. Positive mommentum.  STFU mantra.  Leadership.  Quality Time.  

Work on those items. Put them in map 2.0.  Make yourself a better person and up your sex rank.   

redheaded_woman

Re: "why do you think you're funny?"

To me, that's a perfect opportunity for A&A.

Say something back in a dramatic announcer-like voice about being named all time funniest or "Now appearing for one week only: Twooooo Doggggs!"

She's saying those kinds of things because she needs to feel like the Queen Bee & put you down somehow.

Seriously, she's talking to you the way a a teenage girl talks to other girls she is trying to keep under her as Queen Bee.

Blackwulf

I think there is more here on her side, the issues with sex and irregular periods can be other issues. I think you have a possible medical issue on your hand.

Was she sexually abused?  The behavior towards sex would be inline with that.  She then would fight 2x as hard for control.  

Rico

^^^
What she said.  A&A the crap out of that.  Treat her like she's your bratty little sister.

twodogs

The_Dude said:

Why did she marry you.  You are clearly portraying her as not attracted to you even then. Did she need you in some other way?

I'm not sure.  She used to say I was funny.  I also think she thought I had a lot more money than I actually had.  We never really talked about money before getting married (mistake).  Once we got married she told me I had misled her and made her think I had money when I didn't.  I never did anything to suggest I had more money than what little I had.  I also think she found someone beta willing to treat her like a princess.

Blackwulf said:

I think there is more here on her side, the issues with sex and irregular periods can be other issues. I think you have a possible medical issue on your hand.

Was she sexually abused?  The behavior towards sex would be inline with that.  She then would fight 2x as hard for control.  

I don't think she was sexually abused in any way.  She did have many more partners (10) than I've had and I know initially she felt shame over that.  I've never done or said anything to act like that's bad.  I don't think 10 partners is anything for her to be ashamed of.  The first time we had sex when we just started dating she cried as soon as it was over and said she feels like she's slept with too many guys.

The_Dude

I would suggest that anyone commenting go back and read twodogs original threads.  

twodogs

Here's my original thread:  http://marriedmansexlife.vanillacommunities.com/discussion/1528/new-having-a-hard-time

The_Dude

pretty much everything predicted by the experienced members and Athol came to pass since 2012.  Personally, I start moving through phase 5-7 and get a shot at some decent life without her.  You've added kids to the mix which makes everything 10 times harder but that's a done deal.  Take them for the blessing they are and start moving forward.  
And if possible, get some direct involvement from Athol. Maybe you can turn this around with her but it's a long shot. You'd need professional unbiased help. 

Hannelore

If she's going to be a housewife, she should take on more of the responsibilities at home. For obvious reasons, but also because she needs to model for your children--and eventually teach and hand over to them--what it means to run a house and just do every day stuff everyone does, working or otherwise. I'm not great at this, but I know how important it is, and my parental responsibility. I read, play, and converse with my kids, too, but I'm not their personal entertainer. There's work to be done to keep everyone clean, fed, educated, healthy, etc

The first 5-6 months post partum I concentrate on "dinner, duds, dishes." On those bad days, that's what I consider the bare minimum (with varying success--sometimes dinner is grilled cheese and I only get one load of laundry done).  

I think its great you're posting your triage! Look forward to reading it. All the hard work you' be done so far is not for naught! Being healthy and not having serious structural issues means you can concentrate on you attitude and frame. Good luck!

LadyOrTheTyger

Since you're looking at being single again, here's some advice from a single woman in your age group.  You're a self-admitted overweight SR5.  When you're a SR5 single dad with a toddler and a newborn, you're not going to get any more sex than you are right now, and quite possibly less.  If you divorced your wife tomorrow, you'd still have to run an extremely solid MAP before you'd get laid by attractive women.  So why not keep living in the house with your wife and your kids, keep splitting the bills, and quietly run the MAP now?  The stay plan is the same as the go plan.  When you get to a point where you can reasonably expect that attractive women will want to fuck you, you can give your wife the ultimatum.  

Right now your choices are sexually frustrated single dad who sees his kids on weekends and lost half his property in the divorce, or sexually frustrated husband who gets to see his kids every day and keeps his wealth and income intact.  

redheaded_woman

"The first time we had sex when we just started dating she cried as soon as it was over and said she feels like she's slept with too many guys."

Wow....I cannot imagine how you felt when she did that.
How old were y'all when this happened?

The_Dude

@LadyOrTheTyger  not a bad point.  I'd see if she wants to go back to work full time too. She made more than you prior to going part time right?