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Lord Flashheart's MAP 1.0

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  • AngelineAngeline planting seedsCategory Moderator** Posts: 14,501
    SignorePillolaRossa said:
    i will continue to share my opinion that 'owning the no' is a thing .. fine, it isnt Athol's thing ... fine, there are ways to do it wrong ...  but it is something to be considered as part of an approach, especially useful for (recovering nice) guys who choose to not initiate for (counterproductive) reasons such as not wanting to upset her, not wanting to be rejected, etc (all of which are fear based and come from negative self-talk/imagining)

    Those are things that he must work on, not something she must "own", and you did work on them. 

    But I also believe you have on several occasions said that surly, angry SPR did not make nearly the progress that confident, self reliant, take-no-prisoners SPR did.

    Being too nice, being afraid, assuming a no ahead of time - all that is on HIM, not her. She has nothing to own there.

    i also disagree that it is lecture-y ... in fact, if you're lecturing, you're doing it wrong ... after you initiate and she says 'no' out loud, there really isnt anything more to say except some truly playful "your  loss, sweet cheeks"

    "Your loss sweet cheeks" is the PERFECT response. I believe that a grim, dogged insistence on going beyond that is very unattractive.

    Perhaps you were able to keep that light tone. I do not believe very many people could do so, especially in the hurt and tension of being turned down, and thus this "tool" becomes a cudgel.

    ... i also disagree that it is passive aggressive .. in fact, it is my opinion that it is the exact opposite of passive, it is active ... imo, PA would be NOT initiating then holding against her as if she said 'no' when she never actually had to say it

    I totally agree that being angry for a no when she was not presented with a question is wrong. I'm also saying that pressing so hard for a No, pressing for a particular outcome is seeking a "gotcha". And that is seeking to teach a lesson, a lesson that can not be "taught". You can't "teach" her to want sex.

    i respect if you (or anyone else) don't like it, angeline - feel free to ignore it

    It is my role here to highlight unhelpful or counterproductive advice. 

     ... but it worked for me and can work for other guys if they deploy it properly ..

    I honestly believe it was in spite of that. The weight loss, the dance lessons, the IOI's, the bouyant spirits you started to show here when those IOI's started to roll in. Your posts here even reflected a more relaxed, DGAF attitude and THAT is what activates the cookie making hamster machine, not this intense, bitter, blame-finding kind of activity. Maybe, maybe, you were able to keep a light tone as mentioned above, I wasn't there so I don't know. I do know that humans are far worse at hiding frustration and anger than they think they are, so it is possible you weren't quite as light and humorous as you imagine, about a hurtful and sensitive topic.

    'making a W's hamster start working for the H' can be triggered by her hearing herself say out loud 'no' time after time and seeing him be OI ... it takes away the self delusion that she can tell herself 'well, he didnt really ask for sex so i didnt really turn him down so i am still a good wife'

    it is not even close to the only thing that a H has to do ... in fact, it clearly is close to the 'end' of things that have to be in place first ...

    And almost none of these guys are in that place. Anyone here almost *always* has things they themselves need work on before they start throwing out any self righteous lessons.

    but i will continue to maintain that it is a legit tool when used properly in conjunction with the rest of a MAP

    And I will continue to maintain that it is not a productive tactic for newbies, who are 99.99% likely to already be too focused on what their spouse "should" be feeling or doing.

    I'm actually glad to have had the chance to hash out why I think its a bad idea, and that I think you accomplished amazing things in your marriage with your MAP with tenacity, hard work and determination, not negatives like this. I really do admire what you have done.

    Apologies to the OP, I hope the discussion was helpful and not a distraction.

    "Speak your truth." - Scarlet
    Remember to play!
    Do the right thing, whether anyone is watching or not.
    Be married, until you are not.

    Email address: angeline.greenwood@att.net
    Pen_and_Sword
  • AngelineAngeline planting seedsCategory Moderator** Posts: 14,501
    edited November 15
    I've also had some good results with my wife understanding that she turned me down or 'owned the no'.

    I'm a recovering Nice Guy and sometimes I have to push myself to get my initiations to that point instead of a half ass attempt. Being passive aggressive about her perceived rejection usually follows not pushing to the no.

    Still a work in progress with us.

    Those things are both YOU things, stuff you needed to improve upon, not something she needed to "own".
    "Speak your truth." - Scarlet
    Remember to play!
    Do the right thing, whether anyone is watching or not.
    Be married, until you are not.

    Email address: angeline.greenwood@att.net
    BeatriceCartB4Horse
  • IrishGypsyIrishGypsy UKSilver Member Posts: 407
    I've found "oh well, that's a shame.", followed by a bum slap/squeeze to be the most lighthearted response to a no that I can use. But, as always, YMMV.
    Tennee
  • AngelineAngeline planting seedsCategory Moderator** Posts: 14,501
    @SignorePillolaRossa - I got swamped and never had the time to respond, but I totally agree this is probably the case :)
    i think it might be an 'internet loss of non-textual meaning' thing ... there was no 'dogged persistence in going beyond' ... the only thing that followed "your loss, sweetcheeks" was a kiss on the forehead and me leaving the bedroom or rolling over and going to sleep
    "Speak your truth." - Scarlet
    Remember to play!
    Do the right thing, whether anyone is watching or not.
    Be married, until you are not.

    Email address: angeline.greenwood@att.net
    SignorePillolaRossa
  • LordFlashheartLordFlashheart UKSilver Member Posts: 170
    You know those times when you need to check in, but just don't have much to say on a positive note?  Victim puke ahead just to get it off my mind...

    I'm really fucking tired. The saga of W often coming to bed later than me, often due to her drinking and watching crap on TV as a way of winding down, is continuing.  I try to get to bed in good time, then when she comes to bed later I wake up. She then falls instantly asleep and I'm stuck awake.

    Sex is getting worse.  Nothing for nearly four weeks.  Firstly it was W saying she had a sore throat, then too tired, then stressed with work (but always with "maybe tomorrow" bullshit hamsters)  Then period started 2 weeks ago.  Told by wife "maybe this weekend", then Saturday she's out for the count and Sunday I'm told it hasn't quite finished again.  W snuggles up, hand on my bare stomach and falls asleep, leaving me feeling horny and with shit loads of internal dialogue "why can't she even reach further down and give me a hand job like she used to" etc.

    I'm beginning to not like my W.  Feeling angry and resentful.  Starting to feel "what's the point?"  Given up on initiating.

    I'm starting to look at Christmas shopping.  In the past I've always bought her some lingerie.  She says she likes this and wants her husband to think of her this way.  Some of it she's never worn.  So for the first time, I'm thinking I can't be bothered to buy her any.  Why should I? I'm fed up with looking like a schmuck.  Maybe if don't she'll start thinking about why.

    I know I need to MAP for me.  I know I MAP to make myself better and the sex should follow. I know all of this, yet I still feel really shit right now. No motivation, just anger, PA and indifference to my wife.  Disappointment at myself. All unhealthy things I know, but shit I'm really feeling them right now...
    You want something?  You're the Captain?  You make it happen. Courtesy of @fredless
    CartB4Horse
  • LennyLenny AustraliaMember Posts: 123
    @LordFlashheart dude you git this. At work I have a saying you can either dictate or demonstrate. Dictators never win. Map on and show her the life you want to live, then invite her into it.
    IrishGypsyTennee
  • IrishGypsyIrishGypsy UKSilver Member Posts: 407
    edited November 28
    Victim Puke
    I didn't see a single thing about smashing any monkeys out of the park or what you're doing to make yourself mother-fucking-awesome.

    Don't make me ask for your address and drive to you with a REAL stick of solid 2x4!!! 

    What new awesome skill are you learning in your free time when she's unwinding downstairs? I don't think it's a coincidence that my wife wants to join me at Zumba every week now that she knows I'm the only bloke there.

    If she bails, then I'll have an IOI-packed night (and a seriously effective cardio workout). If she comes, she gets to mate-guard and have a workout.

    Win/win in my books!

    Go start cookery classes? DIY? Woodworking (and then make some awesome stuff for the family by hand).

    Have a wank and then clear your head. Next time I see you posting an update it had better be how you were radiating so much awesomeness I had to put the shades on where I live.  ;)

    Less bullshit, more action. For you.
    TenneenubbyLordFlashheartCartB4Horse
  • amblrgirlamblrgirl ATXSilver Member Posts: 1,328
    edited November 29

    I'm really fucking tired. The saga of W often coming to bed later than me, often due to her drinking and watching crap on TV as a way of winding down, is continuing.  I try to get to bed in good time, then when she comes to bed later I wake up. She then falls instantly asleep and I'm stuck awake.

    amblrgirl said:

    "Babe, it's waking me up when you come into the room so late. Could you please do your bed readying routine before I go to bed or do it in the guest bathroom if you're going to be late." (super nice tone). Or get a white noise machine.


    Seriously. It's okay to address this from a solid frame. Not a hint of pissiness, just working together to problem solve something. It's the same conversation you'd have with your dorm roommate.
    amblrgirltx@gmail.com
    Fitocracy: atxchick

    Enneagram 6w5, married to a 5
    TenneeOzLionMrsJonCartB4Horse
  • IrishGypsyIrishGypsy UKSilver Member Posts: 407
    How old are your kids? If they're not too old, you can ask them to get on your back for some challenging pushups! I do 10 reps with my daughter on my back every morning when she wakes up (and she returns the favour with 10 starjumps for both of us).

    Great bonding time and you get a serious sweat on!!!  >:)
    TenneeCartB4HorseLittlejoeLordFlashheart
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