I don't have much to offer in terms of advice. I've watched someone close to me deal with an insane marriage/ divorce so I can understand why your concerned with rocking the boat. You know it needs to be done and I'm sure you'll do it. Laying down new boundaries for your ex is definitely going to be stressful and uncomfortable but I think you will handle it.
Im happy to hear you've found a new woman, good for you.
Maybe you've thought about this, but if the ex is this upset over Joan not wanting to be friends with her, how will ex react to a (potential) pregnancy?
Thanks for the replies, insights, and suggestions.
@mongrel, I agree that blended families are tricky and that statistically the odds aren't great; we're going to try regardless. Exactly the same is true for pregnancy. We're going to give it a shot. As for marriage, you may be onto something there. I'll think on it.
@angeline, yes, I need to set my son up with a counselor. This has the added advantage that a third party gets to find out what life is like over there at her place.
@jellybean, no indeed, I'm not setting appropriate boundaries with my ex. I never could. That's why I left her. Even during the divorce proceedings three years ago, the only way to set appropriate boundaries was to literally have the police set them. (ie, I got a restraining order). And even then, she started testing me after a while, with innocuous little minor infractions to see if I would call the cops. I didn't.
but anyway, I digress. Boundaries. yes. Time to set them.
@redheaded_woman I agree, my ex would probably not react well to joan being pregnant. Especially as Joan has made it clear to me that if we have a baby, bscx will never actually lay eyes on it.
bottom line from everyone: I need to set boundaries with my ex. And I agree. The only tricky thing is that I need to do this in a friendly way with bscx. If she sees us as still being sort-of-friends, and the increase in distance and boundaries as just being a natural outcome of a change in circumstances, then it will all be good. If she thinks that she is being cut out and rejected, then it will be war. I don't want war.
I think I can manage her out without everything blowing up.
If she thinks that she is being cut out and rejected, then it will be war.
I don't understand this comment. You have divorced her. She has been cut out and rejected.
I understand not wanting to provoke her BSCness, but it seems that that it would be a kindness to help her understand where she actually is in her life - cut out of yours.
We must be willing to get rid of the life we've planned, so as to have the life that is waiting for us. -Joseph Campbell
8
HildaCornersWinter? You call *that* winter?Gold WomenPosts: 3,377
"War" means she gets arrested and checked in as a patient, not that you walk on eggshells and hope you're quiet enough to not set her off.
There are times when I wish my last ex, the BSC one, would do something way over the line. [He's danced on the safe side of it for years.] An arrest might be good for him; he'd get the treatment he needs, as well as a form of security. And Ensign Cornrs would be safe.
When you have a mentally ill person in your life, you have to set boundaries or you will be eaten alive. Read the MAP book section on vampires ... now, triple it for the amount of vampirism a mentally ill person can cause.
The only way to remove the mentally ill vampire is to set rock solid boundaries, enforce them, and risk "war". No, I take that back ... war is almost inevitable. You have to know, deep down, that you are on the correct side, that the goal of the war is to protect those you care about ... then you structure the situation so you will win.
Because if you don't fight, your loved ones will be victims.
Go back and read Neo the Leo's threads. [I keep my details behind the Gold curtain.] This is a fight that can be won.
Enneagram 5w4. I'm researching what that means, before designing t-shirt art about it.
"I feel no shame in making lavish use of the strongest muscles, namely male ones (but my own strongest muscle is dedicated to the service of men - noblesse oblige). I don't begrudge men one whit of their natural advantages as long as they respect mine. I am not an unhappy pseudomale; I am female and like it that way." RAH
I just wanted to point out that your X isn't threatening war, she's threatening to be a terrorist. War is fighting over land you both want to occupy. Terrorism is when one person is motivated to generate fear in someone else, but doesn't have any material gains to be made from the conflict.
That seems semantical, but it isn't. Her aim isn't to get something from you. It's to retain control over you. And, I use that word specifically -- she has control right now and wants to keep it. Joan threatens her control over you, in a major way.
If she thinks that she is being cut out and rejected, then it will be war.
I don't understand this comment. You have divorced her. She has been cut out and rejected.
I understand not wanting to provoke her BSCness, but it seems that that it would be a kindness to help her understand where she actually is in her life - cut out of yours.
Maybe it would be a kindness, but as others have noted earlier, I am afraid of her. She hasn't been 'cut out' of the parenting role, and so has inroads into my life through that. She could quickly and easily create all kinds of problems for me.
I just wanted to point out that your X isn't threatening war, she's threatening to be a terrorist. War is fighting over land you both want to occupy. Terrorism is when one person is motivated to generate fear in someone else, but doesn't have any material gains to be made from the conflict.
That seems semantical, but it isn't. Her aim isn't to get something from you. It's to retain control over you. And, I use that word specifically -- she has control right now and wants to keep it. Joan threatens her control over you, in a major way.
1. no more drop-offs at my place. No matter what rules I put in place, if she comes to my front door she will come inside (she'll literally walk around me, if she wants to come in). 2. she is not to have any contact with Joan unless absolutely unavoidable. 3. no more favors.
oh, and by the way, I think that my ex might have a copy of my front door key. I'm not sure... (again, it's a long story but I didn't give the key to her). stressed and worried.
I'll also always have a video recording capable phone with me at all times, and if at all possible, always have a witness when you are with her.
If she's pushing past you into your house, that's extremely hostile and physically threatening. I'd video asking her to leave repeatedly, and if she fails to leave, I'd call the cops on her.
BSC people do quite often have a sane understanding of police.
Also it's worth calling your domestic abuse hotline for advice as well. I'd assume they get some calls about ex-spouses.
"The turnaround is tremendous. And I'm lifting weights, eating better, and tackling projects. I have all this great energy without a vampire sucking my life force. He's a lot stronger standing on his own two feet, as well." - Scarlet
So things are suddenly looking more shaky on the Joan front.
I've been staying at her place this week; which means with her kids as well.
To give a bit of backstory, she moved out of the marital home a couple of months ago. It was a very large, beautiful house that was recently sold. The kids had basically an entire upstairs floor to themselves and we roamed around through the rest of the house in privacy. Rather than getting another place straight away, she decided to rent for a while, and so is temporarily renting in a modest sized house.
This means we see her kids more. Joan has told me several times that her children like me, but I don't actually have much to do with them, and I sometimes feel that they ignore me. "They're teenagers," she says - and that's true, it's nothing personal.
So, anyway. I play guitar. Joan loves me playing guitar and has been encouraging me to bring one around to sit around and play. So I took an acoustic around this week - i also thought that if I play guitar there, it would be me establishing a bit of presence and space; and negate the feeling that I'm an outsider; like I'm a ghostly guest that just floats into the kitchen occasionally for snacks.
Monday, I didn't have to be at work early, so I was playing guitar in the living room while she and her kids got ready for school. She actually came back in from outside to tell me to stop, because I was setting a bad example to her children, who need to learn to get ready for school quickly and on time. I stopped and apologized.
One night I played guitar in the living room around 10 pm. I heard the daughter go into the kitchen and head back to her bedroom; soon after that, Joan came in and told me to stop because her children have to sleep. Okay, fair enough.
So early the next evening, I played some guitar. Daughter goes to the kitchen, grabs her dinner, and then takes it into her bedroom and eats dinner in her room. Joan came storming in, her face a thundercloud, and told me that I shouldn't be playing guitar at this time because other people wanted to have dinner.
So I packed it up and took it to my car. I said that obviously guitar playing wasn't going to work at her place. I pointed out that I had tried three times to play and on each occasion it was not appropriate. I was pretty calm about this. I meant what I said.
She got really angry and then accused me of being angry about it. (which I wasn't; years of practice with my ex means that I know how to stay very calm in a shitfight). Then she started crying and curled up in a ball on her driveway. Then there were more tearful, angry words, and she strode off, crying, down the street. I followed her, sat next to her on the curb, and calmed her down. It ended okay.
I think what happened on all three occasions is that one of her children signaled to her that they didn't like me playing guitar. They probably didn't even do this verbally. Hurrying out of the kitchen, head down, without eye contact, for example, could be enough of a signal for a child to a mother. I suggested this to her and she said I was wrong... but I'm not convinced I'm wrong about that.
Anyway, I decided not to stay there the rest of the week. I'm staying at my place until Saturday. I am thinking of dropping in on her after work to have a "talk".
I'll point out that this was a pretty big meltdown. Also she has said a couple of other things that suggest cold feet. I'm going to tell her that maybe she should have a bit of space to decide what she wants, and get back to me when she does.
Edit to add: spoke to her on the phone and she is very friendly and happy.... and loving. Maybe I shouldn't make a mountain out of a molehill.
3
HildaCornersWinter? You call *that* winter?Gold WomenPosts: 3,377
Frank, this is big.
As you said, it's not the guitar playing that's big (though if it's an important part of your life, finding time to play is important), it's how Joan reacted. That was an extreme meltdown.
She is likely to react in a similar way to other major conflicts. And the fact that she shows no remorse afterward, that you "spoke to her on the phone and she is very friendly and happy" ... I assume she didn't apologize for her meltdown. Can you live with someone who handles conflict this way?
The honeymoon is over.
Delay all thoughts of pregnancy.
Enneagram 5w4. I'm researching what that means, before designing t-shirt art about it.
"I feel no shame in making lavish use of the strongest muscles, namely male ones (but my own strongest muscle is dedicated to the service of men - noblesse oblige). I don't begrudge men one whit of their natural advantages as long as they respect mine. I am not an unhappy pseudomale; I am female and like it that way." RAH
I agree it's big, but possibly not as big as you think. I may not have communicated the whole way it played out precisely.
We have talked about afterwards and prior to my phone call a short time ago. She did have remorse. In general she is very reasonable in resolving conflicts.
In terms of the fetal position on the ground, she the one who raised it later, not me. She said she was actually shocked that she did it and has never done it before.
There is a lot going on right now and I think she just got very stressed and had a moment.
I still think she would make a great partner. I am concerned that maybe she is having second thoughts.
My ex is a known issue. This makes me think that her kids might be emerging as a second issue.
I'm not sure I would call her behaviour a molehill. That is not how normal adults behave in relatively normal circumstances. How is it setting a 'bad example' for her children when you are playing guitar when they are getting ready? Why did you apologize for that? She literally curled up in a ball on her driveway? It doesn't sound like she is stable enough for the kind of relationship the two of you are trying to build. If she can't handle this 'normal' kind of daily stuff how will she handle things when things heat up with your Ex?
I am going to offer this strictly from my own experience and don't need you to reply to it but please really consider if this could apply to you. I had a dysfunctional / abusive upbringing. When I first started dating I unconsciously chose people and then manipulated them to recreate the familiar cycles I grew up with. Fight, apologize, make up repeat. Drama...it was my normal. It took a while for me (and the help of my now husband who didn't let me push him into a fight) to see what I was doing and change my 'normal'. Is there a part of you deep inside that is seeking this dramatic / crazy behaviour in your partners? I do not mean this in an offensive way at all and really hope you don't take it that way.
So early the next evening, I played some guitar. Daughter goes to the
kitchen, grabs her dinner, and then takes it into her bedroom and eats
dinner in her room. Joan came storming in, her face a thundercloud, and
told me that I shouldn't be playing guitar at this time because other
people wanted to have dinner.
And how, exactly, did your guitar playing impact dinner? "storming in, her face a thundercloud," I would have packed up and left.
Maybe she's early pregnant if she's never done anything that dramatic before???
Hormones make us do really emotional/odd stuff.
(not excusing it though, because man, that is a red flag the size of Texas)
But, then there's the issue of the kids & the guitar.... Is this an electric guitar and you were playing a heavy metal death jam or something? Or is this just an acoustic guitar?
Because I'm a mom and unless you had amps shaking my living room walls, I don't get the big deal.
@redheaded_woman it was an acoustic. I don't think it's that loud.
@fredless the reason it affected dinner is that because of the recent move, the dining table isn't really set up for meals right now, so people tend to sit around in the living room and eat. But if someone had come in and sat down of course I would have stopped.
I agree it's possible she is pregnant and this was a hormonal flip out. She has been complaining she feels 'weird', and she has been nauseous a bit. Also lately she cries quite a lot, at things I wouldn't have thought would be worth crying about.
@snow_phoenix no offense taken. I have attracted the bsc before. I thought I had broken the cycle this time. I still think so although there is now a tiny bit of doubt.
"The turnaround is tremendous. And I'm lifting weights, eating better, and tackling projects. I have all this great energy without a vampire sucking my life force. He's a lot stronger standing on his own two feet, as well." - Scarlet
Okay so Joan came around and stayed for a short while. We sat on my couch, and I said, "I want to talk about what happened on Tuesday night." I told her that I didn't think I did anything wrong, etc. She said "I'm sorry. I was out of my mind." We discussed it further, about the different pressures that led up to it. I won't go into all of it, but two things are worth highlighting since they lead on from earlier discussion here. 1. We agreed I have been including her too much in the issues around my ex and this has been stressing her out. So I'm just not going to talk to her about it any more. 2. We also talked about my relationship with her kids. She emphatically promised me that they like me; but she added that they are shy and don't show it.
After this heart-to-heart conversation we had make-up sex, and then she left. So it was a good evening.
Note that their shyness is probably real and why all of your guitar playing seems to have cause such a commotion -- she is used to doing things to make them feel comfortable without being asked. It's a common coping mechanism parents engage in with shy kids, to 'deal' with their discomfort at speaking up. Joan assumes that you're keyed into this like she is.
That might be a good positive discussion to have btw -- you encouraging them to speak up, and you committing to paying closer attention to their needs. Depending upon how you play your cards, this might actually turn out being a great opportunity for a huge leadership moment TBH.
Comments
I don't have much to offer in terms of advice. I've watched someone close to me deal with an insane marriage/ divorce so I can understand why your concerned with rocking the boat. You know it needs to be done and I'm sure you'll do it. Laying down new boundaries for your ex is definitely going to be stressful and uncomfortable but I think you will handle it.
Im happy to hear you've found a new woman, good for you.
That would be a major concern for me.
@mongrel, I agree that blended families are tricky and that statistically the odds aren't great; we're going to try regardless.
Exactly the same is true for pregnancy. We're going to give it a shot.
As for marriage, you may be onto something there. I'll think on it.
@angeline, yes, I need to set my son up with a counselor. This has the added advantage that a third party gets to find out what life is like over there at her place.
@jellybean, no indeed, I'm not setting appropriate boundaries with my ex. I never could. That's why I left her. Even during the divorce proceedings three years ago, the only way to set appropriate boundaries was to literally have the police set them.
(ie, I got a restraining order). And even then, she started testing me after a while, with innocuous little minor infractions to see if I would call the cops. I didn't.
but anyway, I digress. Boundaries.
yes.
Time to set them.
@soa2005 thanks.
@redheaded_woman I agree, my ex would probably not react well to joan being pregnant. Especially as Joan has made it clear to me that if we have a baby, bscx will never actually lay eyes on it.
bottom line from everyone: I need to set boundaries with my ex.
And I agree.
The only tricky thing is that I need to do this in a friendly way with bscx. If she sees us as still being sort-of-friends, and the increase in distance and boundaries as just being a natural outcome of a change in circumstances, then it will all be good. If she thinks that she is being cut out and rejected, then it will be war. I don't want war.
I think I can manage her out without everything blowing up.
Remember to play!
Do the right thing, whether anyone is watching or not.
Be married, until you are not.
Email address: angeline.greenwood@att.net
I understand not wanting to provoke her BSCness, but it seems that that it would be a kindness to help her understand where she actually is in her life - cut out of yours.
When you have a mentally ill person in your life, you have to set boundaries or you will be eaten alive. Read the MAP book section on vampires ... now, triple it for the amount of vampirism a mentally ill person can cause.
The only way to remove the mentally ill vampire is to set rock solid boundaries, enforce them, and risk "war". No, I take that back ... war is almost inevitable. You have to know, deep down, that you are on the correct side, that the goal of the war is to protect those you care about ... then you structure the situation so you will win.
Because if you don't fight, your loved ones will be victims.
Go back and read Neo the Leo's threads. [I keep my details behind the Gold curtain.] This is a fight that can be won.
Enneagram 5w4. I'm researching what that means, before designing t-shirt art about it.
"I feel no shame in making lavish use of the strongest muscles, namely male ones (but my own strongest muscle is dedicated to the service of men - noblesse oblige). I don't begrudge men one whit of their natural advantages as long as they respect mine. I am not an unhappy pseudomale; I am female and like it that way." RAH
That seems semantical, but it isn't. Her aim isn't to get something from you. It's to retain control over you. And, I use that word specifically -- she has control right now and wants to keep it. Joan threatens her control over you, in a major way.
She hasn't been 'cut out' of the parenting role, and so has inroads into my life through that. She could quickly and easily create all kinds of problems for me.
Very good point. I have internalized it.
Change the locks as @JellyBean mentioned.
I'll also always have a video recording capable phone with me at all times, and if at all possible, always have a witness when you are with her.
If she's pushing past you into your house, that's extremely hostile and physically threatening. I'd video asking her to leave repeatedly, and if she fails to leave, I'd call the cops on her.
BSC people do quite often have a sane understanding of police.
Also it's worth calling your domestic abuse hotline for advice as well. I'd assume they get some calls about ex-spouses.
One Hour Call 12-Week Guided MAP
"The turnaround is tremendous. And I'm lifting weights, eating better, and tackling projects. I have all this great energy without a vampire sucking my life force. He's a lot stronger standing on his own two feet, as well." - Scarlet
I've been staying at her place this week; which means with her kids as well.
To give a bit of backstory, she moved out of the marital home a couple of months ago. It was a very large, beautiful house that was recently sold. The kids had basically an entire upstairs floor to themselves and we roamed around through the rest of the house in privacy. Rather than getting another place straight away, she decided to rent for a while, and so is temporarily renting in a modest sized house.
This means we see her kids more. Joan has told me several times that her children like me, but I don't actually have much to do with them, and I sometimes feel that they ignore me. "They're teenagers," she says - and that's true, it's nothing personal.
So, anyway. I play guitar. Joan loves me playing guitar and has been encouraging me to bring one around to sit around and play. So I took an acoustic around this week - i also thought that if I play guitar there, it would be me establishing a bit of presence and space; and negate the feeling that I'm an outsider; like I'm a ghostly guest that just floats into the kitchen occasionally for snacks.
Monday, I didn't have to be at work early, so I was playing guitar in the living room while she and her kids got ready for school. She actually came back in from outside to tell me to stop, because I was setting a bad example to her children, who need to learn to get ready for school quickly and on time. I stopped and apologized.
One night I played guitar in the living room around 10 pm. I heard the daughter go into the kitchen and head back to her bedroom; soon after that, Joan came in and told me to stop because her children have to sleep. Okay, fair enough.
So early the next evening, I played some guitar. Daughter goes to the kitchen, grabs her dinner, and then takes it into her bedroom and eats dinner in her room. Joan came storming in, her face a thundercloud, and told me that I shouldn't be playing guitar at this time because other people wanted to have dinner.
So I packed it up and took it to my car. I said that obviously guitar playing wasn't going to work at her place. I pointed out that I had tried three times to play and on each occasion it was not appropriate. I was pretty calm about this. I meant what I said.
She got really angry and then accused me of being angry about it. (which I wasn't; years of practice with my ex means that I know how to stay very calm in a shitfight).
Then she started crying and curled up in a ball on her driveway. Then there were more tearful, angry words, and she strode off, crying, down the street. I followed her, sat next to her on the curb, and calmed her down. It ended okay.
I think what happened on all three occasions is that one of her children signaled to her that they didn't like me playing guitar. They probably didn't even do this verbally. Hurrying out of the kitchen, head down, without eye contact, for example, could be enough of a signal for a child to a mother. I suggested this to her and she said I was wrong... but I'm not convinced I'm wrong about that.
Anyway, I decided not to stay there the rest of the week. I'm staying at my place until Saturday. I am thinking of dropping in on her after work to have a "talk".
I'll point out that this was a pretty big meltdown. Also she has said a couple of other things that suggest cold feet.
I'm going to tell her that maybe she should have a bit of space to decide what she wants, and get back to me when she does.
Edit to add: spoke to her on the phone and she is very friendly and happy.... and loving. Maybe I shouldn't make a mountain out of a molehill.
As you said, it's not the guitar playing that's big (though if it's an important part of your life, finding time to play is important), it's how Joan reacted. That was an extreme meltdown.
She is likely to react in a similar way to other major conflicts. And the fact that she shows no remorse afterward, that you "spoke to her on the phone and she is very friendly and happy" ... I assume she didn't apologize for her meltdown. Can you live with someone who handles conflict this way?
The honeymoon is over.
Delay all thoughts of pregnancy.
Enneagram 5w4. I'm researching what that means, before designing t-shirt art about it.
"I feel no shame in making lavish use of the strongest muscles, namely male ones (but my own strongest muscle is dedicated to the service of men - noblesse oblige). I don't begrudge men one whit of their natural advantages as long as they respect mine. I am not an unhappy pseudomale; I am female and like it that way." RAH
We have talked about afterwards and prior to my phone call a short time ago. She did have remorse. In general she is very reasonable in resolving conflicts.
In terms of the fetal position on the ground, she the one who raised it later, not me. She said she was actually shocked that she did it and has never done it before.
There is a lot going on right now and I think she just got very stressed and had a moment.
I still think she would make a great partner. I am concerned that maybe she is having second thoughts.
My ex is a known issue. This makes me think that her kids might be emerging as a second issue.
I am going to offer this strictly from my own experience and don't need you to reply to it but please really consider if this could apply to you. I had a dysfunctional / abusive upbringing. When I first started dating I unconsciously chose people and then manipulated them to recreate the familiar cycles I grew up with. Fight, apologize, make up repeat. Drama...it was my normal. It took a while for me (and the help of my now husband who didn't let me push him into a fight) to see what I was doing and change my 'normal'. Is there a part of you deep inside that is seeking this dramatic / crazy behaviour in your partners? I do not mean this in an offensive way at all and really hope you don't take it that way.
And how, exactly, did your guitar playing impact dinner? "storming in, her face a thundercloud," I would have packed up and left.
Maybe she's early pregnant if she's never done anything that dramatic before???
Hormones make us do really emotional/odd stuff.
(not excusing it though, because man, that is a red flag the size of Texas)
But, then there's the issue of the kids & the guitar....
Is this an electric guitar and you were playing a heavy metal death jam or something? Or is this just an acoustic guitar?
Because I'm a mom and unless you had amps shaking my living room walls, I don't get the big deal.
@fredless the reason it affected dinner is that because of the recent move, the dining table isn't really set up for meals right now, so people tend to sit around in the living room and eat. But if someone had come in and sat down of course I would have stopped.
I agree it's possible she is pregnant and this was a hormonal flip out. She has been complaining she feels 'weird', and she has been nauseous a bit. Also lately she cries quite a lot, at things I wouldn't have thought would be worth crying about.
@snow_phoenix no offense taken. I have attracted the bsc before. I thought I had broken the cycle this time. I still think so although there is now a tiny bit of doubt.
Well if an acoustic guitar is ear-violent, wait until the teenagers have to live with a baby crying at 1am, 3am, 330am, and 6am.
One Hour Call 12-Week Guided MAP
"The turnaround is tremendous. And I'm lifting weights, eating better, and tackling projects. I have all this great energy without a vampire sucking my life force. He's a lot stronger standing on his own two feet, as well." - Scarlet
She said "I'm sorry. I was out of my mind."
We discussed it further, about the different pressures that led up to it.
I won't go into all of it, but two things are worth highlighting since they lead on from earlier discussion here.
1. We agreed I have been including her too much in the issues around my ex and this has been stressing her out. So I'm just not going to talk to her about it any more.
2. We also talked about my relationship with her kids. She emphatically promised me that they like me; but she added that they are shy and don't show it.
After this heart-to-heart conversation we had make-up sex, and then she left. So it was a good evening.
Remember to play!
Do the right thing, whether anyone is watching or not.
Be married, until you are not.
Email address: angeline.greenwood@att.net
That might be a good positive discussion to have btw -- you encouraging them to speak up, and you committing to paying closer attention to their needs. Depending upon how you play your cards, this might actually turn out being a great opportunity for a huge leadership moment TBH.