new triage for new relationship

Angeline

Oh goodness, use extreme caution advising someone of a "better" way to raise their kids, unasked.

forestleaf

Instead of trying to find out from her how the kids like or dislike you, assess that for yourself.  If you have not made much effort to get to know them and spend time with them, now would be a good time to do so.  No Herculean/over-the-top efforts necessary, just spend some time chatting with them, asking about school, finding out what their interests are, etc.  Are you shy yourself?  It seems like you might be waiting to see how the relationship with the kids pans out rather than making any effort.  You're the adult, after all. 

Every relationship you can imagine (marital, romantic, parental, friendship) requires maintenance and effort.

Frank_London

forestleaf said:

Instead of trying to find out from her how the kids like or dislike you, assess that for yourself.  If you have not made much effort to get to know them and spend time with them, now would be a good time to do so.

I have actually made a prolonged and consistent effort to get along with her kids. Joan tells me that my efforts have worked.

Her son is mildly autistic. to put it in context, he's not exactly rain man - he is a normal student in regular classes at a regular local high school, with no teaching aids or anything like that; and he plays basketball. In fact, Joan thinks he probably no longer meets the diagnostic criteria anyway. But he is pretty quiet. But I think Joan's right; I get on fine with him.

The daughter has a boyfriend, a good social circle, and is generally an extrovert. She has Joan wrapped around her finger. Joan likes to think that her little girl is "shy", which is fine, she can think that if it makes her happy. I don't tell her otherwise.

So I guess I have an okay relationship with her kids.

But on reflection, what might be driving my insecurity is this: even though I live there, I have no status or power in her household. Just to pick an example, I don't feel that I could complain to them about the appalling state of the kitchen which the kids sometimes leave it in (and I end up cleaning up); or forgetting to walk the dog (leaving me to do it). I don't feel like a member of the household. I'm still just a guest.

And I don't really have a sense of my role is with them. We don't do any activities together ("they're teenagers, they don't want to hang out with us" says Joan); and her kids do pretty much no chores or tasks around her house. They don't have much to do with us, they just come and go and do their own thing.

JellyBean

I feel for you. You're not in an easy position.
@Geekengineer may have some insights for you  

Frank_London

So my ex hadn't called or contacted me for a week.

I called her to discuss some schooling and xmas issues. And also to find out how she was, because I suspected it wasn't good.

She's in a very bad way. Extremely depressed. It was a 30 minute conversation.
She said "I didn't realize how big a part of my life you were I you cut me off."
She hasn't left the house in two days, and is "starting to have bad thoughts again" (code for suicidal thoughts).
X: "You're the only one, Frank, you're the only friend I've got. I don't have family, I don't have any other friends...." (unfortunately, this is true!!!)
She reminded me that Joan originally was fine with me having a friendship with her, and even agreed to meet up with X and have a drink or something.
X: "Something's changed in the past month. I didn't realize Joan was so insecure."
X is correct. Joan has changed her tune, and does want X cut out of my life, but partly because she has learned about all the BSC things that X did in the past.
Also, X has recently lost her (new) job that she was so excited about, so she's depressed about that too.

As always, after she had a chance to rant and complain, she calmed down a bit.

Obviously, I'm not going to talk to Joan about it. I did feel really bad for x though.

Up thread it was observed that I'm her social worker. And yes, I am... but given that state of affairs, can I really just abruptly cut her loose? I don't think I can. I need to manage her out somehow.

JellyBean

Your continued emotional involvement with your ex is problematic. Joan is right to feel insecure -- you're so emotionally entangled with your ex that Joan has no chance to be central to you. 

You must go No Contact with your ex other than issues directly related to co-parenting. You can handle all of those issue via email. Don't call your ex just to see how she's doing.  Stop giving a shit if her emotional state is bad. If she wants to rant and complain she can hire a therapist. Your refusal to cut this relationship off tells Joan that your ex is central in importance, not her (Joan). 

Frank_London

I hear you Jellybean, but the thing is:
I am her only support network.
She is not really a fully functioning member of society right now.
I am effectively her social worker. She's reliant on me, and I've allowed that situation to develop. So I guess I feel a certain amount of moral responsibility.

Even while my relationship with Joan blossomed, it wasn't a problem; things only went bad in the past few weeks, particularly after Joan and I decided that X won't be part of our new life from about mid next year onwards (when we move into a new house and maybe have a baby). X was never told about the decision, but nonetheless, she's upset about Joan wanting her cut  out.

Joan and I had a few conversations about this and somehow X has deduced or picked up this information quite accurately.

Frank_London

x called later to talk to my son. She took the opportunity to speak to me and apologize for earlier. She was in a much better frame of mind.

Scarlet

The fact that your ex is not a functional person is not your problem.  

Does she have a mental health care provider?  They have social workers.

Joan's expectations are completely and utterly reasonable. 

HildaCorners

You need to use the Stranger test on your ex.

Each time you think about doing something for her, decide whether you'd do that thing for a stranger in the same situation.

You are a concerned, caring person, and that's good. But ...

Would you loan your car to a stranger to go grocery shopping?
Would you listen to a BSC stranger on the phone for 30 minutes?
What would you do if a stranger told you they were feeling suicidal?
What would you do if your kid let an adult stranger into your home, without your permission?

How you answer questions like this is up to you ... but your ex deserves no more of your care and attention than you would give to a stranger.

redheaded_woman

Frank -  I don't see Joan as "insecure" at all and I think your ex using that word is elevating herself to a place she doesn't deserve.

Joan is setting a boundary for her own self-care. I see her as quite secure to actually set this boundary instead of going along with it thinking she would be risking losing you if she didn't go along with it.

No new SO should have to be friends with an ex or otherwise tolerate contact outside the normal range of co-parenting to somehow prove they're secure. 

(Just food for thought if your ex uses that phrase again. She's clearly the one who's insecure.)

JellyBean

"Joan and I decided that X won't be part of our new life from about mid next year onwards (when we move into a new house and maybe have a baby). X was never told about the decision, but nonetheless, she's upset about Joan wanting her cut out."

Your first sentence says "Joan and I decided," and the last sentence says "Joan wants her out," not "Joan and I."  Just Joan.   I don't think you are doing this consciously but I believe you are unable/unwilling to do the uncomfortable work of establishing healthy, appropriate boundaries with your ex so you are setting Joan up to do your dirty work. 

Yes you are a social worker, but you're not your ex's social worker (although it sounds like she needs one). You're not her taxi. You're not her therapist. You're not her genie in a lamp. 

You are compassionate and don't want to hurt her which I think speaks of you having a kind heart. So in a spirit of kindness what can you do to be kind to yourself as well as your ex? In the long run it isn't good for your ex to never learn to stand in her own two feet. In fact one might say it is unkind to leave her in a state of helpless dependence. If you accept that premise then it follows the kind thing to do is to stop enabling her. 

Be kind to your ex by going No Contact and allowing her to grow up. 

If your ex starts with the suicide talk call the police. 

Be kind to your son by demonstrating how to appropriately handle dealings with a crazy woman. 

Be kind to Joan by allowing room in both your lives to see how the relationship can blossom absent interference from your ex. 

Be kind to yourself by giving yourself permission to let go of your need to keep rescuing your ex.

Be kind to yourself by understanding you cutting off her emotional and material support is the right thing to do both for your peace of mind and also for her future development. 

You're a kind man with a good heart. Allow that part of you to grow. 

soa2005

You're feeling bad for your ex and trying to watch out for her but who's watching out for you? The longer this drags out the more likely it is that your ex will continue inserting herself into the new relationship. If this goes unchecked long enough or if the new boundaries aren't made clear enough then the chances of the new relationship being successful are pretty slim. 

Being nice or kind hearted is good and all but at what price? Kind of a "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me" type of thing.

Katt

I think most of the bases have been covered by other posters, but one thing that occurs to me is to think of how we would view this if roles were reversed.    If a man (say, you) came on here describing a new relationship that was heading toward living together and having children and proceeded to describe a woman who had the kind of investment in and interactions with their ex that you have with yours, and putting him in the situation that Joan is in involving the ex,  I suspect the resounding chorus would suggest he slam on the brakes and possibly run fast and far if new GF couldn't establish and stick to healthy boundaries with the Ex STAT and keep their contact to the minimum required for coparenting.

SignorePillolaRossa

yeah, we'd be telling Joan to GTFO if she were here

handle your ex if you want a solid stable shot with Joan

it's your glaring RED, captain.

onward, with courage !

fair winds and following seas

Frank_London

Update:

I seem to have completely solved the ex situation for now. It got worse before it got better.

Things went completely to shit over Christmas. My ex was, to put it bluntly, a total bitch to me on several occasions. I won't go into all the detail, but put it this way: she made a scene when I arrived at her place to pick up our son; she kept trying to change the swap-over time at the last minute (a favorite trick of hers). She started an argument with me in front of him about custody arrangements. On Christmas day.
She's like, .... "so are you going to agree to that thing that I asked about in an email?" (to do with custody).
I said, "I don't want to discuss it here" (indicating the boy).
her: "So that's a no."
me: "I don't want to discuss it, now on Christmas day, with our son right here listening."
her: "Why not? Why can't you be reasonable?"
etc. It got worse. It ended up being an emotionally draining, high octane argument, and in the end she glared at us as we crossed the street, tears in her eyes.
That really, really pissed me off.

There was another big argument as well, again when we were doing change-over, when I arrived to collect my son. Instead of him coming out, she came out (and told him to wait in the house). she came to the car and just railed into me; accused me of all kinds of stuff, abused and insulted me. When she was good and done, she let me get my son.

So now, there's very little contact with my ex, and when I do speak to her, it's prickly. Which is good. I prefer it that way. It's more honest than trying to be nice and trying to get along with her.

Life is much simpler without this energy vampire in it; I can concentrate on other things, like being a parent and a lover.

Scarlet

Good for you.