Although I'm still a neophyte I must say that my call with Athol was EXTREMELY enlightening. About 60% of what he said I had predicted. The other 40% was amazing, insightful and useful after I got myself out of the shit hole I was in.
Put back on course via a 'One Hour Call' with Athol. Seriously worth 10 times the cost, but don't tell him that....
“Between stimulus and response, there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom.” - Victor Frankl
I've sent the contact form off to request the 1hr call with Athol. Hopefully he can slot me in for an hour before Xmas rolls around.
@Adam_S I know she's gone a bit mad on Xmas with £80+ toys for the kids. She's also spent about £100 on food for Xmas day.
But I only left myself with enough for fuel and to buy her a present from me and then from the kids. Now a chunk of that will go on the babysitter (as it's half the price of me taking unpaid leave instead).
Either way, it's her credit card and her sole responsibility to pay it all back. Mixing interest bearing with interest-free balances means it's going to take her a lot longer to pay it back (due to the way interest is calculated daily and how her payments are applied to both balance types).
You, and the kids could make her a present...I freakin' melt whenever H does something with DS' hand prints. H does a "year in review" photo collage for me on Mother's day that's a big winner too.
I don't know if there's a UK equivalent to Groovebook, but it's really cool. You upload 100 pics with their app, and they send you a photo album for $3.99.
Google some stuff- you should be able to come up with something meaningful for a very tiny budget.
You, and the kids could make her a present...I freakin' melt whenever H does something with DS' hand prints. H does a "year in review" photo collage for me on Mother's day that's a big winner too.
I don't know if there's a UK equivalent to Groovebook, but it's really cool. You upload 100 pics with their app, and they send you a photo album for $3.99.
Google some stuff- you should be able to come up with something meaningful for a very tiny budget.
There needs to be a way to choose agree and awesome on this post. I swoon over the handprints, photo ornaments and popsicle photo frames!
You, and the kids could make her a present...I freakin' melt whenever H does something with DS' hand prints. H does a "year in review" photo collage for me on Mother's day that's a big winner too.
I don't know if there's a UK equivalent to Groovebook, but it's really cool. You upload 100 pics with their app, and they send you a photo album for $3.99.
Google some stuff- you should be able to come up with something meaningful for a very tiny budget.
There needs to be a way to choose agree and awesome on this post. I swoon over the handprints, photo ornaments and popsicle photo frames!
I've created a custom A4 calendar template in MS Word and I've left plenty of border space all around it.
The plan is to print out the 12 pages on card, cover each calendar up with paper and masking tape, then let my kids go wild with the paint brushes. Once the paint dries, the calendar will be paint-free and have awesome artistic borders (6 by each kid).
I'll then affix a stand to the A4 wooden clipboard arriving tomorrow and it'll be a very personal office calendar that my wife can take into work and put on her desk.
The front of the wooden clipboard will be lightly sanded and I plan on getting my Daughter to paint "we love you!" On the clipboard itself (with an accompanying handprint from all three of us).
I'll then varnish over top to protect it.
Finally, the kids can draw her some custom wrapping paper to wrap it with too. Can't get anymore customised or high-effort than that!
So, just had my 1-hr call with Athol. Summary of take always are:
* My new job marks my entry into Phase 2 of the MAP, as the increased income balances out the financial contributions, reducing stress from her and also removing my dependency on her income.
* Her main brands of attraction are Status/Power, which has a natural side-effect of earning more money.
* I need to keep my MAP'ing for me up and he reckons 2017 will be a very bumpy year as the apple cart continues to be upset at greater degrees.
* He's unsure if my wife was ever *truly* into me, as I'm 99.99% sure she had a PE 2 years into our relationship and the 12-year EA on top. Has she just been with me for whatever resources I brought in helped her enjoy her own money more easily?
So for now, I continue to express any real issues I have with her doing things that erode trust, but the leverage isn't there for an effective A/B, so I need to ride it out (I.e. suck it up) and let her have her tantrums whilst I work on me.
He reckons we'll know by end of 2017 if my wife can ever be truly attracted to me (as my MAP increases all the different brands of attractiveness).
TL;DR is: Head down, chin up, eat the shit sandwich until the leverage or attraction is there from MAP'ing hard. Whichever happens first.
You've got this @IrishGypsy. Your eyes are wide open now and you are setting limits. She's resisting your MAP, resisting you growing a back bone. KEEP IT UP.
Put back on course via a 'One Hour Call' with Athol. Seriously worth 10 times the cost, but don't tell him that....
“Between stimulus and response, there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom.” - Victor Frankl
You've got this @IrishGypsy. Your eyes are wide open now and you are setting limits. She's resisting your MAP, resisting you growing a back bone. KEEP IT UP.
He said that it was a good thing I told her I was uncomfortable with her staying over by herself. The NG tendencies are eroding.
He also suggested playing the mean card of suggesting her family need to know the root cause of what's going on if they (namely her mum just now) continues to ignore me, or start asking me why I'm making her upset, in the same way my wife currently is.
I'll sit down with my wife tonight, lay out that I have reasonable boundaries (more so considering the circumstances) and that it's reasonable to expect her to at least take them on board. Any choice she then makes is up to her.
Additional thought: Now I've worked out my wife's preferred brand of attractiveness, when I up it, will I actually still want to be with someone who is primarily drawn to status/power/money? I'm not saying it's bad (because it isn't), but is that the kind of person I really want to be with. Because, for me, none of that truly matters. But, of course, women are less visual than men, so all women are attracted to the same things in varying degrees. Food for thought for me.
Also, a very sincere thank you to @Athol_Kay for his insights. Confirmed a lot of the forum's thoughts, but gave me a lot of great insight elsewhere. Well worth the money for anyone else who is ever told to go do it. I put the cost onto my credit card as it was too important to ignore.
And apologies to Athol if I rabbited on or if I sounded like a drunken Irishman
@IrishGypsy - most of what I hear up there ^^^ is raw energy, at least it would be for me. I've used negative energy for most of my life, being driven when people tell me I can't do something.
I also see that YOU know the real score. If wifey cheats again you won't respond the same way again, right?
I'd kick the fucking apple cart over @Tennee Style if I were you.
Put back on course via a 'One Hour Call' with Athol. Seriously worth 10 times the cost, but don't tell him that....
“Between stimulus and response, there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom.” - Victor Frankl
^ ya gotta be careful doing that; I've said many time it wasn't exactly the most intelligent way I could have gone about it. On phone, will comment more on this when I'm free.
"Fall down seven times, stand up eight" Japanese Proverb
@IrishGypsy - most of what I hear up there ^^^ is raw energy, at least it would be for me. I've used negative energy for most of my life, being driven when people tell me I can't do something.
I also see that YOU know the real score. If wifey cheats again you won't respond the same way again, right?
I'd kick the fucking apple cart over @Tennee Style if I were you.
I agree with @Tennee on that. The applecart *will* be upset. But it'll need to happen at a gradual pace. One.degree.at.a.time.
It will give my wife time to process that the changes are real and permanent.
I have a feeling that, now my wife has been explicitly told I don't want her to either buy me clothes or tell me how I should dress anymore, dressing well to ooze power and status will be a quicker way to convey that brand of attractiveness (and therefore be a greater display of high value).
Anyone know of any idiot-proof style guides for men?
Like I said, that's what I'd do..... Not the best thing to do by far.
Focus on yourself though, use that energy to pound out the reps, go harder at work, do whatever it takes in everything that you do. The Go Plan is the same as the Stay Plan, right?
Put back on course via a 'One Hour Call' with Athol. Seriously worth 10 times the cost, but don't tell him that....
“Between stimulus and response, there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom.” - Victor Frankl
@IrishGypsy - most of what I hear up there ^^^ is raw energy, at least it would be for me. I've used negative energy for most of my life, being driven when people tell me I can't do something.
I also see that YOU know the real score. If wifey cheats again you won't respond the same way again, right?
I'd kick the fucking apple cart over @Tennee Style if I were you.
I guess you are saying kick the apple cart over if she cheats again...right? Because otherwise, he would be going against Athol's advice.
So... Had that conversation with my Wife and she tried to Darvo the absolute fuck out of it. Said that he and her were "two lonely people who got on well". She said that I was never there for her (which WAS a fair point that I told her I had already apologised for), but that it doesn't excuse for her lack of not caring that she was married.
She claims she can be remorseful AND justify it at the same time. (Is that even possible)?
I told her that I felt having to earn my trust back was reasonable of me to expect, she, predictably, said that all I'm doing is constantly bringing it up to hit her over the head with (total bollocks, first time I've said anything to her about being uncomfortable with any social event she's been to).
She asked me why I didn't feel uncomfortable with her staying away on training courses as she drank there too (new one to me). I told her that I the context wasn't to go out and get pissed and so I was trying to extend that trust in her.
Ultimately, I apparently "treat her like shit", that i " do nothing at all around the house" (not true, I don't do everything, but I do a crap load more than I've ever done in the past) and that she "doesn't care what I think or what I have to say to her anymore". So 100% contempt, zero true remorse and zero respect. Confirmed. I left it with the "you've given me a lot to think about" line and then STFU and walked away.
No matter how unpleasant this shit sandwich of a marriage is, I'll continue to MAP to become the best man and father that I can.
I'll truly be gobsmacked if the marriage makes it through 2017. But no matter, the end result is a better me that my wife either wants, or someone else can truly appreciate.
My biggest saddness would be for our two kids, as none of it is their fault.
BlackwulfLeading the pack. Silver MemberPosts: 1,782
You can feel remorse and justified in this. It's the way it works with cheating, they know its wrong but you are the one who was shitty first in their mind and so that gives them the reason to cheat. Literally if you were a better husband she tells herself she wouldn't have cheated. You have taken ownership though of being that naive and thoughtless guy, that guy is gone though.
If you want to get rid of the contempt, you have got to hold yourself and her to a higher standard. Make a commitment If you want to see real remorse you have got to get to phase 3. She has got to see you as higher value than herself for the regret to exceed the justification. The funny thing is when you make it to that point you have got to decide if you want to keep her.
The saga continues (it's like a fucking high-paced drama series in my life this week!).
My wife came into our bedroom and said in passing that she doesn't want to fight anymore. I asked her to sit down on the bed beside me and I explained that, no matter how much she doesn't like it, it WILL take a long time for the trust to come back. I can't change that and she can only change it by making marriage friendly decisions.
She said that I'm saying she doesn't have a "moral compass" and I said that's right. Which she said she found "very offensive".
I told her that the hundreds of naked pictures and videos over the years proved that her moral compass simply wasn't there. Same person or not, it WAS 100% morally wrong to send them. To which she shut up about being offended. Take that uppercut hamster.
So then she unloaded what was effectively a character assassination of how she still doesn't feel that I could raise the kids and look after the house (an important point that I told her I do take VERY seriously), how I'm a nasty person to be around at times (probably because I'm more direct at taking less shit from people), how my daughter doesn't always want me to do things with her (because my wife's ultimately a much bigger pushover than she likes to think she is) and that it's like I find spending time with my daughter a chore!!! (WTAF!?!? She doesn't see the fun we have in the car singing every morning, or the fun we have on the way to her school, etc.), how I apparently talk to her family "like shit". And how, when I try and get my point across, all I do is "preach at her" and that makes me come across as an asshole.
So I've told her I've taken what she's said onboard and will have a think about it. But I reminded her that the marriage is a two-way street and that when a couple who've been together for 13-years can't even buy each other something different for any occasion that they'd like (so they end up buying something 'safe' instead) that, that's a very sad state of affairs. Which she agreed.
I told her I truly want to stay married, but only to a woman that both likes me and WANTS to be with me and she agreed that she wouldn't want to be with someone who didn't like her or want to be with her.
I've told her that I expect her to put some effort into the marriage as it can't all come from me.
I then STFU and turned away from her. After a few minutes, she held oit her hand and we hugged.
So, the stay plan is very much the same as the go plan. I need to MAP through the phases a d as @Blackwulf rightly pointed out, I may even find that when I get my SR far above my wife's, that I may not want to be with her if she hasn't made the effort towards improving the marriage from her end.
Comments
Put back on course via a 'One Hour Call' with Athol. Seriously worth 10 times the cost, but don't tell him that....
“Between stimulus and response, there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom.” - Victor Frankl
@Adam_S I know she's gone a bit mad on Xmas with £80+ toys for the kids. She's also spent about £100 on food for Xmas day.
But I only left myself with enough for fuel and to buy her a present from me and then from the kids. Now a chunk of that will go on the babysitter (as it's half the price of me taking unpaid leave instead).
Either way, it's her credit card and her sole responsibility to pay it all back. Mixing interest bearing with interest-free balances means it's going to take her a lot longer to pay it back (due to the way interest is calculated daily and how her payments are applied to both balance types).
I don't know if there's a UK equivalent to Groovebook, but it's really cool. You upload 100 pics with their app, and they send you a photo album for $3.99.
Google some stuff- you should be able to come up with something meaningful for a very tiny budget.
Just booked a 1-hour call with Athol for tomorrow. Looking forward to figuring out a way to Captain our family through this.
The plan is to print out the 12 pages on card, cover each calendar up with paper and masking tape, then let my kids go wild with the paint brushes. Once the paint dries, the calendar will be paint-free and have awesome artistic borders (6 by each kid).
I'll then affix a stand to the A4 wooden clipboard arriving tomorrow and it'll be a very personal office calendar that my wife can take into work and put on her desk.
The front of the wooden clipboard will be lightly sanded and I plan on getting my Daughter to paint "we love you!" On the clipboard itself (with an accompanying handprint from all three of us).
I'll then varnish over top to protect it.
Finally, the kids can draw her some custom wrapping paper to wrap it with too. Can't get anymore customised or high-effort than that!
Great idea btw!
Hold on a sec...
* My new job marks my entry into Phase 2 of the MAP, as the increased income balances out the financial contributions, reducing stress from her and also removing my dependency on her income.
* Her main brands of attraction are Status/Power, which has a natural side-effect of earning more money.
* I need to keep my MAP'ing for me up and he reckons 2017 will be a very bumpy year as the apple cart continues to be upset at greater degrees.
* He's unsure if my wife was ever *truly* into me, as I'm 99.99% sure she had a PE 2 years into our relationship and the 12-year EA on top. Has she just been with me for whatever resources I brought in helped her enjoy her own money more easily?
So for now, I continue to express any real issues I have with her doing things that erode trust, but the leverage isn't there for an effective A/B, so I need to ride it out (I.e. suck it up) and let her have her tantrums whilst I work on me.
He reckons we'll know by end of 2017 if my wife can ever be truly attracted to me (as my MAP increases all the different brands of attractiveness).
TL;DR is: Head down, chin up, eat the shit sandwich until the leverage or attraction is there from MAP'ing hard. Whichever happens first.
Put back on course via a 'One Hour Call' with Athol. Seriously worth 10 times the cost, but don't tell him that....
“Between stimulus and response, there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom.” - Victor Frankl
He also suggested playing the mean card of suggesting her family need to know the root cause of what's going on if they (namely her mum just now) continues to ignore me, or start asking me why I'm making her upset, in the same way my wife currently is.
I'll sit down with my wife tonight, lay out that I have reasonable boundaries (more so considering the circumstances) and that it's reasonable to expect her to at least take them on board. Any choice she then makes is up to her.
Additional thought: Now I've worked out my wife's preferred brand of attractiveness, when I up it, will I actually still want to be with someone who is primarily drawn to status/power/money? I'm not saying it's bad (because it isn't), but is that the kind of person I really want to be with. Because, for me, none of that truly matters. But, of course, women are less visual than men, so all women are attracted to the same things in varying degrees. Food for thought for me.
Also, a very sincere thank you to @Athol_Kay for his insights. Confirmed a lot of the forum's thoughts, but gave me a lot of great insight elsewhere. Well worth the money for anyone else who is ever told to go do it. I put the cost onto my credit card as it was too important to ignore.
And apologies to Athol if I rabbited on or if I sounded like a drunken Irishman
I also see that YOU know the real score. If wifey cheats again you won't respond the same way again, right?
I'd kick the fucking apple cart over @Tennee Style if I were you.
Put back on course via a 'One Hour Call' with Athol. Seriously worth 10 times the cost, but don't tell him that....
“Between stimulus and response, there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom.” - Victor Frankl
How will you live well today?
It will give my wife time to process that the changes are real and permanent.
I have a feeling that, now my wife has been explicitly told I don't want her to either buy me clothes or tell me how I should dress anymore, dressing well to ooze power and status will be a quicker way to convey that brand of attractiveness (and therefore be a greater display of high value).
Anyone know of any idiot-proof style guides for men?
Focus on yourself though, use that energy to pound out the reps, go harder at work, do whatever it takes in everything that you do. The Go Plan is the same as the Stay Plan, right?
Put back on course via a 'One Hour Call' with Athol. Seriously worth 10 times the cost, but don't tell him that....
“Between stimulus and response, there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom.” - Victor Frankl
I guess you are saying kick the apple cart over if she cheats again...right? Because otherwise, he would be going against Athol's advice.
She claims she can be remorseful AND justify it at the same time. (Is that even possible)?
I told her that I felt having to earn my trust back was reasonable of me to expect, she, predictably, said that all I'm doing is constantly bringing it up to hit her over the head with (total bollocks, first time I've said anything to her about being uncomfortable with any social event she's been to).
She asked me why I didn't feel uncomfortable with her staying away on training courses as she drank there too (new one to me). I told her that I the context wasn't to go out and get pissed and so I was trying to extend that trust in her.
Ultimately, I apparently "treat her like shit", that i " do nothing at all around the house" (not true, I don't do everything, but I do a crap load more than I've ever done in the past) and that she "doesn't care what I think or what I have to say to her anymore". So 100% contempt, zero true remorse and zero respect. Confirmed. I left it with the "you've given me a lot to think about" line and then STFU and walked away.
No matter how unpleasant this shit sandwich of a marriage is, I'll continue to MAP to become the best man and father that I can.
I'll truly be gobsmacked if the marriage makes it through 2017. But no matter, the end result is a better me that my wife either wants, or someone else can truly appreciate.
My biggest saddness would be for our two kids, as none of it is their fault.
http://marriedmansexlife.vanillacommunities.com/discussion/13057/the-new-threads-thread-for-captains#latest
If you want to get rid of the contempt, you have got to hold yourself and her to a higher standard. Make a commitment If you want to see real remorse you have got to get to phase 3. She has got to see you as higher value than herself for the regret to exceed the justification. The funny thing is when you make it to that point you have got to decide if you want to keep her.
My wife came into our bedroom and said in passing that she doesn't want to fight anymore. I asked her to sit down on the bed beside me and I explained that, no matter how much she doesn't like it, it WILL take a long time for the trust to come back. I can't change that and she can only change it by making marriage friendly decisions.
She said that I'm saying she doesn't have a "moral compass" and I said that's right. Which she said she found "very offensive".
I told her that the hundreds of naked pictures and videos over the years proved that her moral compass simply wasn't there. Same person or not, it WAS 100% morally wrong to send them. To which she shut up about being offended. Take that uppercut hamster.
So then she unloaded what was effectively a character assassination of how she still doesn't feel that I could raise the kids and look after the house (an important point that I told her I do take VERY seriously), how I'm a nasty person to be around at times (probably because I'm more direct at taking less shit from people), how my daughter doesn't always want me to do things with her (because my wife's ultimately a much bigger pushover than she likes to think she is) and that it's like I find spending time with my daughter a chore!!! (WTAF!?!? She doesn't see the fun we have in the car singing every morning, or the fun we have on the way to her school, etc.), how I apparently talk to her family "like shit". And how, when I try and get my point across, all I do is "preach at her" and that makes me come across as an asshole.
So I've told her I've taken what she's said onboard and will have a think about it. But I reminded her that the marriage is a two-way street and that when a couple who've been together for 13-years can't even buy each other something different for any occasion that they'd like (so they end up buying something 'safe' instead) that, that's a very sad state of affairs. Which she agreed.
I told her I truly want to stay married, but only to a woman that both likes me and WANTS to be with me and she agreed that she wouldn't want to be with someone who didn't like her or want to be with her.
I've told her that I expect her to put some effort into the marriage as it can't all come from me.
I then STFU and turned away from her. After a few minutes, she held oit her hand and we hugged.
So, the stay plan is very much the same as the go plan. I need to MAP through the phases a d as @Blackwulf rightly pointed out, I may even find that when I get my SR far above my wife's, that I may not want to be with her if she hasn't made the effort towards improving the marriage from her end.