Pendulum Swing - now I want to turn down sex

Mongrel

My triage for those who don't know my story can be found here:  http://marriedmansexlife.vanillacommunities.com/discussion/8556/mongrels-map/p27

I've been MAPing for 2 or 3 years, have changed my outlook and attitude and am generally happy with who I am. Some things I would still prefer to change (job, where I live) but MMSL has worked for me and I'm getting more sex and far fewer rejections. However, the pendulum has now swung in the opposite direction and last night I was the one performing duty sex.

I feel like I'm in some Bizarro world. I was faced with a willing wife--who initiated--and had pretty much zero interest in having sex. No, not totally true. I wasn't terribly interested in having sex with her. Even though she is initiating (verbal only) it still befalls me to 'get her warmed up' before having sex in the same room in the same bed. Once the game is on there is some variety (whatever I choose) but leading up to that I felt like many women have expressed here:  sex is just another task on my to-do list.

Typing this I recall other events yesterday prior to sexy time. She left yesterday morning to go shopping with her mother. I teased her about buying a short skirt or dress to wear for sex. "I wouldn't have to take it off and you could leave your sex shoes on," I suggested. 
"Yeah, right."
I can't remember the exact words I used now but I alluded to the idea that it would be a nice treat for me, a gift she could give me. Her LL is Acts Of Service so this isn't an absurd concept. Her response was some hamster about doing stuff for her to which I A&A'd to which she replied "Bullshit", meaning I don't do things for her. 
I held out some small hope she would actually buy something but she didn't, though she did confess to looking at skirts so the idea I planted apparently stuck long enough for consideration. Anyway, Frumpzilla was the order of the day all the way to the bedroom. I've got about a 30/60 success rate on pushing her to wear something sexy (the 30 being the success part). She'll lay on the bed and await me to 'perform'. This is a constant no matter if I initiate or not or initiate hard/caveman anywhere in the house. This, her frumpyness and restrictive times for sex (5-7pm weekdays, one day on a weekend but never both) have turned my level of attraction for her down to Don't Give A Shit.

Don't Give A Shit has been a powerful tool for me to maintain frame early in my MAP but now sex with her has become notably insignificant from my side. I still want to have sex, but it just doesn't excite me to have it with her. Attraction can't be faked, and I don't feel like faking it. I managed to have decent sex last night but there was a period of several minutes where I lay there in bed thinking I'd rather be doing X Y or Z right now. I have achieved the ability to have sex when I want it but...I no longer want it that much. Not sure where to go with this.

Digger

Lately, I have also been feeling less attracted to my FO. I've been working hard to stop using the amount/quality of sex I have as a way to evaluate my life. The result, I'm less into sex...

Looking forward to following this thread. Anyone else dealt with the wife-goggles falling off?

NewMe

I have a thread on exactly the same issue....  

AlphaZulu

>>she replied "Bullshit", meaning I don't do things for her. <<

Wow! With that attitude coming at you, I understand your lack of desire!

I've followed your progress for the year or so that I've been on the site, so I'm sure you know the right way to handle this. But I'll tell you what I would say if I got that kind of comment.

"This morning you implied that I don't do anything for you. I take that accusation seriously, because marriages fall apart when people stop making an effort. So I made a list of all the things we do for each other. If I've left anything off the list, I want you to fill it in. Down here at the bottom of the page, there's room for both of us to fill in what we wish the other would do more of. This isn't a contest. The lists don't have to match item-by-item; but there should be a good balance. When we're done, I want to know if you still feel like you did this morning. If not, I'll ask you to stop minimizing my contributions to our relationship. If you still feel the same as you did this morning, we'll need to have a more serious discussion of expectations."

Of course, this only works if your MAP is going well and you're being a good captain!

LadyOrTheTyger

Flip it on its head here.  What you're going through is, in large part, what your wife has been going through up until this point-- you love her, you care about her, and you want to want her but you're just not attracted.  What would you tell her to do?  What do we tell un-attracted wives to do?

Mongrel

Requesting the skirt or heels or whatever is asking her to up her girl game. She's not interested. Couple that with her increased weight and I'm just not turned on.

I don't see Mrs M responding well to some comparison list. That will just kick her hamster into overdrive.

AlphaZulu

>> I don't see Mrs M responding well to some comparison list. That will just kick her hamster into overdrive. <<

I understand you might not get a good reaction to forcing the issue. But I don't think you want to just let her dismiss you with "Bullshit!" and make that the last word on the topic. I have a lot of respect for the work you've done so far, so I'm interested in hearing how you handled it, or what you plan on doing.

JellyBean

Maybe the time has come to be more direct with her. You can do it in a jokey way. 

"Oh yeah, your stained stretch pants and scrunchie bun are making me so hot."

"Mm hmm, that's right. Those gnarly feet are such a turn on."

or just be direct. When she looks like a shlub, say, "you can do better than that. Not sexy."

If she starts putting the moves on you, say, "girl I want to get jiggy with it, but first you need to shower and brush your teeth."

_io

.

frillyfun

What do you think would happen if you bought say- the alleged dress, and gave it to her?  
I think there are a few levels of attraction- one where you can get sex, the second where you can get lingerie sex if you do the footwork, and then the highest level where they're handling the lingerie, and seducing you.

42andatowel

Mongrel said:

Even though she is initiating (verbal only) it still befalls me to 'get her warmed up' before having sex in the same room in the same bed. Once the game is on there is some variety (whatever I choose) but leading up to that I felt like many women have expressed here:  sex is just another task on my to-do list.

I'm in the same boat here.  I'm rarely rejected when I initiate, and can almost 100% of the time get an assist with taking care of myself if she does reject sex.  However, the few times she does initiate, it's either very subtle, or just verbally, and I have to do all the work to get her going before we start.  Of course I'm nowhere near you in terms of mapping and have chalked it up to still needing to significantly increase my attractiveness.

Mongrel said:

I've got about a 30/60 success rate on pushing her to wear something sexy (the 30 being the success part). She'll lay on the bed and await me to 'perform'. This is a constant no matter if I initiate or not or initiate hard/caveman anywhere in the house. This, her frumpyness and restrictive times for sex (5-7pm weekdays, one day on a weekend but never both) have turned my level of attraction for her down to Don't Give A Shit.

This has been my life for a while too.  I still have a long ways to go in mapping, I'm more at about 10% success rate when trying to get/encourage my wife to wear something sexy.  We've been doing a major de-cluttering and cleaning out of the closet.  With some protesting I managed to get her to keep one skirt that was above the knee.  I was not successful in fighting for the boots, wedge sandals, or my favorite short dress.  I don't have the time constriction you seem to, but for me too it's limited to the bedroom, and me to start the show.  I'm hoping to make some progress here as my MAP continues to improve.  I also really need to work on stoking her responsive desire, as I still don't do that very well.

Mongrel

The time constraints are her self-imposed ones. There are many, many additional hours potentially available.

I do not stoke desire as much as would be recommended, probably for two reasons. One, it seems like a lot of work just to get the same old, same old. Two, getting the green light isn't the problem anymore.

There is no passion. Maybe if I pour half a bottle of wine down her neck there is. OTOH I don't feel any for her either. I'm tremendously flexible and have offered/suggested role playing, bondage (which she sort-of likes) and other variety but she is indifferent. She's indifferent about a lot of things in life and this just carries over to sex.

My sex drive may have gone down as I've gotten older (and more successful at closing the deal) but I find that there are a lot of women I'd rather have sex with than her right now. She may fuck my body but she doesn't fuck my mind at all. I wish I didn't feel this way but I don't know what power I have to alter it.

LadyOrTheTyger

You don't stoke RD, so she's un-enthusiastic, so you get the same-old same-old, so you don't stoke RD, so she's un-enthusiastic, so you get the same-old same-old, so you don't stoke RD. . . ..

Mongrel

Good post. I'll re-read that one a few times.

If I find myself in this position again--willing but no effort, refuses to add props or whatever to stroke my desire--can I just refuse sex? Its sort of a rule around here to never turn it down but aren't I at the point where sex with me is a more valuable commodity? Why should I agree if she can't be bothered to show me that it is something of value (that I am of value)?

Girls, chime in here. Because this would be rejection and the hamster never likes that. @Katt @Angeline @HildaCorners ;

Mangue

It's not really turn down sex. Your point is "i want sex, i want it like this and this", if she refuse it's her turning down the kind of sex you demanding. Obv it's easier to have this attitude when you're the one who initiate.

HildaCorners

Mongrel said:

If I find myself in this position again--willing but no effort, refuses to add props or whatever to stroke my desire--can I just refuse sex? Its sort of a rule around here to never turn it down but aren't I at the point where sex with me is a more valuable commodity? Why should I agree if she can't be bothered to show me that it is something of value (that I am of value)?

Girls, chime in here. Because this would be rejection and the hamster never likes that.

There's no rule that you *must* have sex or that you can't refuse sex. In fact, the suggestion for women with lazy bear husbands is usually the exact opposite — only have sex when you want to, and stop if you stop feeling it.

Not refusing sex rewards your spouse for whatever behavior got you to have sex in the first place. So if Mrs Mongrel gets her sex and O merely by saying "I'm willing" and lying in bed with her sweatpants off, you're programming her to keep doing exactly that.

When you see this behavior, say "Not sexy" and walk away (with OI), you are sending a powerful message: she has to work to get sex with you. And that's what you want.

Reward her good actions and ignore the bad ones. Have sex only when you feel the urge. If she does something sexy, let her know by your response ... if she turns you off, do nothing. Soon, she'll be doing minimal things that turn you on.

The rewards should be on a sliding scale ... your expectations increase as she improves. We went through this on her clothing a while back ... 1) reward her for wearing clean old sweats. When that becomes common ... 2) reward her for wearing new clean sweats ... 3) buy her yoga pants and reward her for wearing them instead of sweats ... eventually you'll get her wearing sexy loungewear. With sexual response, the pattern is the same: star by rewarding her for tiny progress in the right direction, them move the goal post slightly until she's responding the way you want.

TL:DR  Don't have sex if you aren't feeling it. Make her work for sex.

Husband3point0

Could I ask about not stoking her RD for a minute?  Why do you choose to avoid that?  How is that conscious effort beneficial to you?

Maybe I'm weird or different, but... I find myself stoking RD as a consequence of NOT nerfing my natural inclinations to come onto her. How and why is it work to basically go around the house making innuendos and grab-amassing her? Isn't that what you want to do already? 

I understand how frumpy wife is not as attractive as hot sexy wife, but if you don't lead and she's left to her own devices, then she will calibrate herself accordingly. 

Katt

My thoughts are still along the lines of something I posted in your MAP thread some time ago (pasted below).   I think positive energy outside the bedroom breeds positive energy in the bedroom.  I know I am far more open and enthusiastic sexually when we've been playful, having a good time, when he's been making me laugh.  



Katt said:

I'm still not sure much is being done to inject positive energy into the relationship.  I feel much more positivity / affection toward my husband when we've been spending some QT and having fun together.    Date nights are great (especially if we try a new activity or even a new restaurant - something different), but so are simple things like working on a project or cooking a meal together, playing a game, play wrestling.   It's easy to feel same old same old when everything really is the same old same old.

Mongrel

Thanks girls. I appreciate the replies.
Also @Husband3point0 in regards to the responsive desire. Let me elaborate about how things are here. I fondle, grab and spew innuendos daily. That is part of my routine and who I am. To me I'm not 'stoking' because I don't go beyond that. I don't send flirty texts or consciously, actively to things to try to increase desire. I've let it be what it is I normally do (which I suppose is working in that my frequency is up). Perhaps my efforts are actually effortless but I don't feel as if I'm doing anything 'extra'. Does that make sense?

@shibari your suggestions about play time are valid. We have a lot of that 'equipment' and I've used it in the past. I got a little sour on it because she started to want it all the time and it is also something I must do for her...again. Its sorta-kinda fun sometimes for me but I'm not really into the advanced stuff. I've suggested corsets and other things and she just refuses. When I suggest I say "You should try one. I know you would look hot in it" vs "please please please won't you give it a go?". Its hard enough to get her into some heels.

She knows she's fat and she thinks all of the costume stuff is stupid and makes her look ridiculous.

I think I'm going to utilize the 'not sexy' thing. I've done it simply addressing daily Frumpzilla stuff but if I bring it into the bedroom and actually turn her down for sex it should generate an interesting response. I'll be OI no matter what because I'm already not terribly interested in boinking her when she's like that.

CartB4Horse

Mongrel said:

Good post. I'll re-read that one a few times.

If I find myself in this position again--willing but no effort, refuses to add props or whatever to stroke my desire--can I just refuse sex? Its sort of a rule around here to never turn it down but aren't I at the point where sex with me is a more valuable commodity? Why should I agree if she can't be bothered to show me that it is something of value (that I am of value)?

Girls, chime in here. Because this would be rejection and the hamster never likes that. @Katt @Angeline @HildaCorners ;

This may be sacrilege here, but why don't you just PASS?

I'm no where near you in my MAP but I do get that same damn feeling once in a while.

Maybe it's a little needed dread.  Wife sees you pass up starfish?

Angeline

Initiate if you want sex, don't have it if you don't want it. But I think it will be hard to not anticipate and look forward to turning her down as payback for disappointing you.

Your "suggestions" for lingerie are not nearly strong enough. If you're interested in it, buy it for her or take her shopping. 

How much do you think not assertively going for what you really want out of life in multiple areas affects this? If you went for the job you really wanted, and lived in the place you really wanted, maybe you'd have the passion and piss and vinegar to confront your wife about her physical appearance, and have the marriage you really want.