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Comments
@Kiche
I call BS. Don't rewrite history.
Jan 15th from your other thread. It was written on the 15th but I said sex was on Tues. Tues was the 12th. I have a calendar of it all. Sex was on the 7th, 8th, 10th and 12th.
And I find it kinda weirdly interesting you're willing to give your teeth more time (mentioned in your first Map thread) and space to adjust than your wife. Its a 15 month program, I don't have a choice. (Well, I can choose to NOT correct my teeth). Please tell me you aren't suggesting I accept 15 months of no-touch marriage
No offense taken. I'm not trying to place blame - just that I'm not seeing a light at the end of the tunnel. Thoughts keep creeping in about planning an exit strategy. I guess I need to trust those of you who are saying you think "I'm so close" even though it looks a million miles away.
It sounds like you're getting close to a Phase 4 statement of expectations. You're getting as mad as hell, and not going to take it any more.
You have the MAP book? If so, review how to conduct a SoE and file the info in your mind ... then, when the SoE moment happens (it's often unplanned), you can tell her your expectations with respect.
Like women with Lazy Bear husbands, it may take going all the way to Phase 6 before your wife understands the full consequence of a sexless marriage. You need to understand that you're in for a long slog until that day ... your MAPping can speed the process, but only to a point. Deal with it.
By the way, to give a straight answer to your title question ... a lot longer than you, and I'm not pissy.
Enneagram 5w4. I'm researching what that means, before designing t-shirt art about it.
"I feel no shame in making lavish use of the strongest muscles, namely male ones (but my own strongest muscle is dedicated to the service of men - noblesse oblige). I don't begrudge men one whit of their natural advantages as long as they respect mine. I am not an unhappy pseudomale; I am female and like it that way." RAH
Know what you want and go get it.
You come off in your posts writing style as low value, Perhps that is how you intereact in person. Confidence Is Sexy.
You are NOT projecting confidence. Therfore....no sexyum for you
Go watch the videos
Fate favors the prepared.
@HildaCorners
What phase of the MAP do you think you are in? I'd call myself Ph. 3
It sounds like you're getting close to a Phase 4 statement of expectations. You're getting as mad as hell, and not going to take it any more.
You have the MAP book? If so, review how to conduct a SoE and file the info in your mind ... then, when the SoE moment happens (it's often unplanned), you can tell her your expectations with respect. Yes, two books and the video series. I'll take your advice
Like women with Lazy Bear husbands, it may take going all the way to Phase 6 before your wife understands the full consequence of a sexless marriage. You need to understand that you're in for a long slog until that day ... your MAPping can speed the process, but only to a point. Deal with it.
By the way, to give a straight answer to your title question ... a lot longer than you, and I'm not pissy. You and my wife have a lot in common! And a lot less testosterone!
If she is like me, and would like to have sex but isn't attracted ... well, that's something you can work on.
Enneagram 5w4. I'm researching what that means, before designing t-shirt art about it.
"I feel no shame in making lavish use of the strongest muscles, namely male ones (but my own strongest muscle is dedicated to the service of men - noblesse oblige). I don't begrudge men one whit of their natural advantages as long as they respect mine. I am not an unhappy pseudomale; I am female and like it that way." RAH
@SaigoTakamori
Know what you want and go get it.
You come off in your posts writing style as low value, Perhps that is how you intereact in person. Confidence Is Sexy.
You are NOT projecting confidence. Therfore....no sexyum for you
I am not trying to discount your comment, but if I had all the answers I'd be giving the advice rather than asking for it. There may be some truth in what you say but I can honestly say I'm better in person. My W has been coming to me with questions and for decision-making virtually every day with stuff she would have never done so with in the past. I don't think this momentum would have occurred if I was not projecting a certain level of confidence, value, etc.
As a side note, I work alone from home so my primary interaction with other adults is at the gym every morning. I see 'regulars' who seldom ever interact with anyone and by default I would normally be that way. I, on the other hand, pushed myself to approach others and now I know lots of people there. I've had people come to me and ask training questions. I get invited to training events, pig roasts, and birthday parties. Just this week I've met two new members and a new instructor just because I was proactive. I also ended up talking to a beautiful girl in the weight area which was just a nice brief conversation about certain classes and instructors. I saw probably a dozen guys watching out the corner of their eye so I'm sure she noticed their 'looks' too. But I bet I'm the confident high-value one she'll remember! A little later we ended up in another part of the gym near each other. When I turned and saw her looking at me she did the quick look-away thing. My point is that all is not always as it seems on the internet but I still appreciate your reply
That is fantastic. My point is : You Are Not getting the results you want?
1)Why?
2) Go Get It
Sounds to me like....You drive down the field (ba bam)...you are getting into the red zone(Ba Bam)........going 3 downs and kicking the field goal.(ba ba bum)
Fate favors the prepared.
The truth is that unless you move beyond improving superficial or already green items (such as health/fitness when you're already a fit triathlete) and really confront head-on the tough issues like disrespect or life imbalance or lopsided chore responsibility, you aren't MAPping, you're coasting. The more toxic and entrenched the bad behavior is in the marriage, the harder you have to work to disrupt things to make the changes YOU want. Whining about why someone else won't automagically change into what you want is pointless and unattractive.
Remember to play!
Do the right thing, whether anyone is watching or not.
Be married, until you are not.
Email address: angeline.greenwood@att.net
Back from a 3 day family mini-trip. Maybe its the lack of sleep, maybe its too many hours behind the wheel over-thinking things, but scheduling a call with the big guy may be in order sooner than later. I'm not in a good place.
@Angeline Coasting, really? I can't take the time to spell them out (nor would you want to read it all) but you have no idea how many 'improved self' things I did just the past few days alone.
Spending time in a large public venue made me realize what out of shape, inconsiderate, obnoxious slobs many people are. I'm not even 'hot' and I still probably ranked in the top 2% there. Even with my current short-comings its dumbfounding to understand how I'm so repulsive to her. It is what it is. I frankly don't care anymore. I'm going to assume I will never regain intimacy with her. No more seeking it or being hopeful. No more trying to give a kiss and getting pushed away. No more planning romantic things just to be turned down. I just get kicked harder in the nuts every time I try.
I know it can be hard, but you have to get out of the angry fog you're in. Because boy, are you pissed. Honestly, I've been following your story for a while, and you did not sound this angry when you started posting here.
In a way, it makes perfect sense. After a very long time without sex, you got some, you finally started making progress... and now it's gone again. I see your anger as coming from despair at the idea of going back to how it used to be. I honestly sympathize, but it's just not helpful.
At the same time, if a bunch of strangers that cannot even see you or hear your voice can sense your anger... how much of it do you think your wife can see?
I think it's normal and healthy that you want your wife to know you're dissatisfied with the amount of sex in your marriage. What is not healthy is that you still blame her.
From your statements on this thread alone, it seems that:
1. Your MAP is a covert contract.
2. Deep down, you still believe your wife has the obligation to fuck you regardless of her level of attraction or external factors that may affect her desire.
3. You think 'assuming good intentions' is for fools who want to get taken advantage of.
Forget your wife for a minute. Forget about the sex (difficult, I know). Are YOU happy with who you are and the way you interact with the world? Not how you APPEAR to the world, but how YOU feel in it. Now think about how that affects your marriage. If you blew up your marriage, then what? What would your life look like? I don't have answers, BTW, it's just a little more food for thought.
Ah, one more thing. Here's some information that may help you understand why your wife doesn't even want to think about sex right now. Don't resent her her grief. Don't assume she should be over it by now: real life grief does not follow a neat script like we're led to believe. Give your wife a little more space to mourn her sister - not because you want her libido to return and so you're providing RC, but because the mother of your children suffered an important loss that she hasn't got over yet.
One of the things that prompted all this is that W refused to sleep in the same bed on our trip. Had a 2 room suite but she chose to sleep with the kids. Even taking sexy time out of the equation, who does this? (Had been zero fights, everyone had a fun/happy day). Same thing the 2nd night. This, among other things, sends me a message of how little attraction there is.
I didn't think too much of it at the time. On the long drive home I started dwelling on things and concluded that nothing I am or will become will probably ever pull her along (based on the success rate to date) and create the life I want (@jellybean). If that's true then I have two of the three outcome options left, which is really only one. If along that path I am proven wrong and things change, then great. As @Leticia said, I think I have to forget about my wife (and sex) and focus on how my life outside of marriage would look. Maybe this disconnect would help take away any deep-seeded covert contracts and blame-placing even though this mind-set goes against what @amblrgirl said. It does seem risky though. If marriage change is not the goal and sex is off the table, it takes away motivation to do responsive desire and relationship comfort items.
I have a request in to schedule a one-hour call.
@Leticia
what are your REDS at the moment? What are you doing about them? How much do you think they are impacting your wife's attraction? In my MAP thread
I know it can be hard, but you have to get out of the angry fog you're in. Because boy, are you pissed. Honestly, I've been following your story for a while, and you did not sound this angry when you started posting here.
In a way, it makes perfect sense. After a very long time without sex, you got some, you finally started making progress... and now it's gone again. I see your anger as coming from despair at the idea of going back to how it used to be. I honestly sympathize, but it's just not helpful. True.
At the same time, if a bunch of strangers that cannot even see you or hear your voice can sense your anger... how much of it do you think your wife can see? The anger set in after we got home. Busy unpacking and then all going to bed. I only slept a few hours with all this racing in my mind. Back to the daily rat-race the following day so we've barely seen each other - she hasn't seen any of it.
I think it's normal and healthy that you want your wife to know you're dissatisfied with the amount of sex in your marriage. What is not healthy is that you still blame her. I don't know if blame is the right word. I'm more disappointed. I'm a better person than when we dated, yet she was attracted to me then and not now. Income has quadrupled, much better physical shape, dress and groom better, am more confident and a better leader, etc. I cant think of one area that has digressed, yet 25 yrs ago she would kiss me and sit close to me, have quickies in crazy places, even an occasional BJ (taboo now). I guess the biggest difference is now we both have more responsibilities and less free time. This is why I now question how any more improvement on my part will create a 180 turn around. If I'm 90% improved (or whatever) and still sexless, how would the last 10% really matter? Yet I keep busting my ass trying to 'get' all this.
From your statements on this thread alone, it seems that:
1. Your MAP is a covert contract.
2. Deep down, you still believe your wife has the obligation to fuck you regardless of her level of attraction or external factors that may affect her desire.
3. You think 'assuming good intentions' is for fools who want to get taken advantage of.
Insightful. I believe you unpacked it quite well. thanks
I think you made the right move by scheduling a call with Athol. You'll gain a lot of clarity there.
Some of what I've read in your thread makes me very hopeful for your marriage, and I am rooting for you!
The only thing I want to reiterate is the power of grief. I personally was shocked at how it overwhelmed me when my mom died. Honestly, it took about a year for me to really stabilize (not that I was a wreck constantly in that first year, just that the grief could overtake me at any moment and I couldn't maintain control of it with any consistency). I would imagine there is another layer of difficulty when there has been long-term caretaking as well.
So, whatever your marriage looks like at any given moment over the next several months (maybe even up to a year after your SIL's death), may not be an accurate reflection of your wife's response to your MAP or her attraction or comfort levels with you.
Fitocracy: atxchick
Enneagram 6w5, married to a 5
So, how do you avoid pissy? Simple answer is you stop MAPping to get laid and start MAPping to be a better man. Your goal is not to get laid; your goal is to become awesome. Getting laid is a dividend of being awesome. Being awesome when she's laying you like tile is easy. Being awesome when you're high-T and completely starved for physical affection is rather challenging.
It's easy to get down on yourself and use your sex calendar as a barometer for how awesome you are and then inferring that you must suck as a man because your wife has no interest in having sex with you. Sure, you start to think of yourself as completely low value and decide that you must be truly repulsive if your wife has absolutely zero attraction to you. That gets into your head, if you let it. That begins to eat your soul, if you let it. That starts to redefine who you are, if you let it.
The key is that it gets there if you let it.
You have to give your self-worth over to your wife in order for that to happen. And, if you do that, especially implicitly, then that depression is on you. You chose that. You chose to define yourself according to someone else's opinion of you. You've effectively got a one person jury and its your wife's transient and emotionally subconsciously impaired sex drive, without her knowledge or consent too mind you. She probably doesn't even know she's got that power, especially not consciously. And, she definitely didn't ask for it, nor does she want it. So, blaming her for her subconscious decisions that you've projected upon her that she has implicitly rendered as your self-imposed jury of one is neither rational nor healthy, not just for yourself either but your marriage as a whole.
That is true OI. And, you're not close to that. Yet. But, you can get there. Kick her sex drive off your one person jury, find something else positive to do that makes you feel whole, strap yourself in, and become awesome. Then, after the fog has lifted on her crisis, give her time to rubber band back to you and reflect on how awesome you've been throughout her struggle.
Become that guy. And then wait for the real her to bounce back into your arms. And THEN evaluate where you are. Mid-crisis is a shitty time to evaluate virtually any situation, unless you work for FEMA or something...
When I'm reminded of mortality (my own and others'), my thoughts go to my kids. They need protecting from life-threatening things. And they need their family alive to protect them and help them grow. And they need extra comforting and guidance through their own grieving process when someone they know dies.
Maybe she is partly avoiding you. But maybe she is also worried about how the kids are handling all this.
Or maybe her sister's death has awakened fears for your children's safety. After my mom died, I had terrible dreams that my children had died. Though I could logically understand that it was just a dream and subconscious emotional processing, it was hard to shake it off. I had a strong desire to keep my children close at those times.
Fitocracy: atxchick
Enneagram 6w5, married to a 5