Is this the end? Faith related crisis!

Adam_S

From what I gather, at least some Christians seem to struggle with the idea that if somebody doesn't believe in God then they have no reason to act as a decent or moral person. I think she needs to know that you're still the same person and that you're still the captain of the ship.

I think the advice others have given about not mocking or being hostile to her faith is good as well. You're asking her to accept your (lack of) beliefs so you need to show that you still accept hers too.

Oh and @tennee is right, the gnostic gospels are a fascinating area of study. They actually made a great deal of sense out of Christianity for me, at least when you start to figure out what the hell they're on about.

Athol_Kay

Adam_S said:

From what I gather, at least some Christians seem to struggle with the idea that if somebody doesn't believe in God then they have no reason to act as a decent or moral person.

They don't struggle with it, it's a fairly direct teaching in many churches.

If there's a struggle, it's that if non-believers can live an essentially good and moral life, believers are expending a lot of time, money and effort on something that may not actually be providing them with the advertised benefits of being a more moral person.

MrGrimm

From my point of view as a Christian, and especially if your wife looks to you as the leader, the biggest point of contention is probably the affect on your kids. For a many of us, making sure we do a good job with raising our kids in faith with the hopes that they receive eternal salvation is as important, and maybe even more important to us than our own salvation. 

Your wife is most certainly concerned that your lack of faith is going to have a huge affect on your kids and their attitude toward church/religion. 

BlueWolf

I´m really grateful for all the feedback and help in this thread! I will be back with more and would like to give some response to several posts. But for now I´ll give some feedback on my situation, It was awfully painful and we didn´t talk much from wednesday night until saturday. I met with friends thursday nigh and got some support there and from you awesome people. Learned today that W reached out to a person in church. Then we started to talk, she was scared, angry and hostile. I couldn´t take that and several times told that we couldn´t communicate if we were going to talk like that. I lost it a couple of times but finally we could start talking. It was painful but honest. I was tempted to sugarcoat it but managed not to. I t wasn´t as bad as she feared but still earthshaking for her. She was at least pleased that I was honest and wanted to share my life and thoughts with her. W has felt like me shutting her out and not sharing my thoughts and feelings with her. I have done a stealth map so thats not totally wrong I guess. I didn´t tell her everything but I shared some thougts on how I view relationships, how people work and some stuff about the lovelanguages. Talked about the importance of sex to. She admitted that she believes that sex can work and be pretty ok if e can keep the connection between us. We talked about how I view faith, she was both hopeful and scared at the same time.

Anyway we slept in the same bed. We continued to talk at sunday, could spend time in the evening and watch tv togheter. Both felt relief to have connected again. I was dead tired and fell asleep in front of the tv. I had not eaten properly and slept really bad during this few days. W woke me and we got to bed. We started to cuddle and great sex followed. I was really suprised, in my head we had divorced several times during this days. Monday morning she came and gave me breakfast on the bed.... she rarely does this. I had accepted us never togheter like this again. Hope is renewed, the mapping will start again so I can keep this momentum going. Thx for all advice and support that made me hold it togheter.

Blackwulf

You held frame and you stuck to your truth.  Great job. Where you stand on your faith is now open for you to explore and discuss with your wife.  That can be a bonding experience for the both of you even if you don't agree.  Honestly the best thing in a marriage in my experience is being able to be honest on things that matter, and both of your beliefs matter.  

BlueWolf

JellyBean said:

This happened to me as well, sort of. 

It is a fine balance. You're still the awesome self you have always been. But the foundation of your worldview has changed radically, and it has shaken hers as well. She may wonder since you're no longer a believer if you will start acting in ways that are proscribed by your former religious tradition. For example, will you start cheating? Will you start doing drugs? Will you become an anti-faith advocate? 

It would be a DLV mistake IMO for you to allow her to bully you into remaining closeted about your changed beliefs. At the same time you should continue to support her and be respectful of her continued faith.  

Great insight, I think she was worried about me becoming anti-faith advocate and fear that I would start to drink to much among other things. The bolded part is true and very important in the future also. Demands som courage from me to say what I think without fear of judgement or upsetting W. 

BlueWolf

Blackwulf said:

I left Christianity 22 years ago though I only really realized that about 3 years ago.  There is a difference between not having faith in the institutions and another in the beliefs themselves.  In my case my wife was raised Buddhist and Taoist so it wasn't really an issue but once I found another faith and started practicing it seriously then I had to explain how my values work, their source, etc.  

I would advise you have a talk with her about the marriage vows especially.  In my case I had lingered  belief about the vows being something in my mind that truly had much more force than the reailty of getting and maintaining my wife's personal commitment and my own.    

For me this has happened over a long time really. Yes I also have a lot the values still with me but a lot of the beliefs has faded.

BlueWolf

Tiger_Lily said:

I'm sorry you're going through this!  It's really tough.

The faith itself, though, is Athol's third brand of relationship comfort: shared values.  If you both married as believers, then you both consciously entered into a world where the husband was expected to lead in that, to be a spiritual head of the household, and where the two became one flesh so that each partner's faith was not only his or her private business.  Sounds like it has remained one of her hard requirements for RC, and if she wasn't aware how much this has changed for you - or has tried to avoid seeing it - it's a decent-size hit to her sense of security.

Thx, your compassion & prayers is appreciated.  You´re right the common faith was a cornerstone in her RC. I have to work extra hard to compensate for that loss and really be clear that I still have values and are thrustworthy still.

BlueWolf

SignorePillolaRossa said:

above all else, maintain frame in both your actions and any conversations you have with her

This was hard when it´s a sensitive and personal subject, but it´s still true and solid advice.

make it clear that you still honor your vows and expect her to do the same ... reinforce that you intend to live a life with a fulfilling marriage and expect her to do her part ... call her out if she uses negative tactics (like guilting or mocking or shaming or whatever) to try to get you to comply or to show disrespect towards you ... make a concerted effort to be seen/heard by her defending people of faith who act/live in good will towards others

Thx, that´s great advice and really important now and in the future.

live your truth especially the reality of your searching and acceptance of uncertainty

BlueWolf

DaddyOh said:

You're getting great advice here.

 Have a feeling your wife is also concern about the kids. Sooner or later they will question your motives and their own. "Why do I have to go to church, if daddy is staying home?"

True, I want the kids to have the chance to choose their own path and not be forced into one. Not easy no matter how you put it. But I came to a Place where I Think it´s better to be honest - so honest you can be anyway with them. I don´t want to lie or be a hypocrite.

I'll definitely follow this thread. Hang in there. 

BlueWolf

Athol_Kay said:

I personally took the approach that I had indeed essentially bait and switched @Jen_Kay and was for lack of a better term, the... er... unfaithful person in the marriage.

It's hard to describe how terrible it feels to hurt the person you most love, from a place of genuine lack of belief.

I stayed pretty quiet about being an atheist for 14 or so years after that.

Personally I think I'm a better person for lack of belief. I'm kinder, less judgmental and more generally open to people as a whole. I remain essentially moral, prosocial and committed to my family.

I think all you can really do is frame that this is coming from a place of genuine honesty of viewpoint. Don't try and force them to change their viewpoint to yours. Don't roll your eyes when they go to church etc.

In time they may come around to your point of view. They might endlessly attack you for your lack of belief. They may lose attraction to you. They may leave you.

I was extremely worried I was effectively ending my marriage when I came out as an atheist. But after a certain point, I just hated not being honest about it all.

Thx for sharing that, meant the world to me in the time of crisis. Not completly out of the woods yet but it´s looking so much more hopeful now. Good advice, I´ll try to follow it. I was somewhat suprised how much of a moral person I remained after losing my old form of faith... so I share your experience in that regard. ( Even though I have some caveat, some christian persons are extremly generous and unselfish with their time & money compared to the average person. If that only is good I don´t know. ) 

BlueWolf

LadyOrTheTyger said:

The Apotle Paul is extremely clear that  woman who is a Christian should NOT leave a man who is not a Christian.  So as along as you aren't being hostile (which it sounds like you're not), she really doesn't have a leg to stand on if she ends the marriage based on your leaving the faith.   May I suggest that you suggest that she discuss this with a trusted clergymember?  Also, neither one of you should make hasty decisions.  You can live together as husband and wife for a year or so while she's an active Christian and you're not, to see how it shakes out.  Anything can happen.  

I learned afterwards that she had in fact reached out to a counselor in Church. I´m not crazy about that woman but she truly cares for my W and apparantly gave good advice. Good advice. I haven´t made a point of me not calling myself a christian, but I was pretty clear about how I dont believe as I used to.  

BlueWolf

Templar said:

   

The bolded section is the most important. My wife "believes in Christ" but is not a baptized Christian and seldom attends church. She has always been this way. I am a very practicing Catholic and rather a traditionalist. Though there are occasional issues, we still have a very loving relationship, have raised 3 children who are good, solid citizens and Catholics. Would I prefer she believed as I do? Absolutely! Do I love her less because she does not? Absolutely not!

Fear of the unknown - what your "lack of belief" means for the marriage is probably her biggest concern. Remember the love and give her RC. You need to be the calm and steady one. This was a process for you. She needs to go through her own process to understand and accept this. If she brushed it off as no big deal, she probably wouldn't be the woman you love for a number of reasons.

Insightful and intresting to hear about your marriage and how you make it work.

Athol_Kay

BlueWolf said:

Athol_Kay said:

I personally took the approach that I had indeed essentially bait and switched @Jen_Kay and was for lack of a better term, the... er... unfaithful person in the marriage.

It's hard to describe how terrible it feels to hurt the person you most love, from a place of genuine lack of belief.

I stayed pretty quiet about being an atheist for 14 or so years after that.

Personally I think I'm a better person for lack of belief. I'm kinder, less judgmental and more generally open to people as a whole. I remain essentially moral, prosocial and committed to my family.

I think all you can really do is frame that this is coming from a place of genuine honesty of viewpoint. Don't try and force them to change their viewpoint to yours. Don't roll your eyes when they go to church etc.

In time they may come around to your point of view. They might endlessly attack you for your lack of belief. They may lose attraction to you. They may leave you.

I was extremely worried I was effectively ending my marriage when I came out as an atheist. But after a certain point, I just hated not being honest about it all.

Thx for sharing that, meant the world to me in the time of crisis. Not completly out of the woods yet but it´s looking so much more hopeful now. Good advice, I´ll try to follow it. I was somewhat suprised how much of a moral person I remained after losing my old form of faith... so I share your experience in that regard. ( Even though I have some caveat, some christian persons are extremly generous and unselfish with their time & money compared to the average person. If that only is good I don´t know. ) 

Give that viewpoint some time to think about.

Unusually generous people exist in all faiths and lack thereof. It's not limited to Christians. Also for many of those super generous, it's actually a form of dysfunction. It is possible to give too much and not have enough for yourself or family as a result. Balance is important.

Also there's often an awful lot of extra moral credit given to Christians, simply for being Christians, and the good that secular people do is often discounted as somehow being worldly and defective by default.

If you judge people by what they actually do, not what they say they believe, results tend to be more accurate.

Husband3point0

I want to echo the sentiment of @Tennee and recommend that you do some self-reflection and decide whether it is faith in general you're leaving behind, or a particular institution. 

For my case, I grew up in an awful Catholic Church environment and left religion entirely when I went to college. (Translation -- I escaped Catholicism when I escaped my parents' house.) As I've grown older, I've adopted my wife's much more progressive religion. In the nutshell, I generally agree with that Jesus guy. I just didn't agree with the nuns and priests who were running things, if that makes sense. 

If religion isn't your thing, then it isn't your thing. But, make sure you're not conflating the general concept of faith with the administration and/or logistics of a particular institution. 

I get the sense that many people conflate the two. 

MrGrimm

I agree with the above.  A lot of people turn from faith because of the actions of other, less than perfect people.  To me that is completely misguided.  It's like me saying I'm never going to buy a GM car again and bad mouthing them because I had a bad experience with the local GM dealer.  A poor experience with a dealer (or church) is just a reflection of the imperfect people that work there; not the product being sold.  We're all imperfect; and as we all know, even "those perfect Christians" are going to make bad choices.  That just reflects on us, not who Jesus is.

Husband3point0

I should clarify too -- I'm not advocating for a particular religion, or religion in general for that matter. I'm simply pointing out that I think many people, myself included fell/fall into the trap of mixing up the concept of faith with a specific institution, or its leaders. 

TLDR version: When I was 19, instead of going overboard and saying "fuck Jesus and this church bullshit", I probably should've said "fuck Father Mike and Sister Mary and their bullshit" instead. **

** Then again, if Father Mike had dropped the bullshit and fucked Sister Mary, maybe things would've been a lot different. That's a possibility too. 

AlphaVsBeta

That made me laugh, because as it turns out in my Catholic School (1st - 8th),  Sister Mary wanted Sister Claire...

(Just to qualify, I loved by Catholic School experience)

Mongrel

I'm sure BlueWolf knows if his departure is from the institution or faith in general. What I'm wondering is if he relayed the same information to his W.

My W would be far happier if I simply didn't like her church but still had faith. Unfortunately for her, I'm okay with most churches (most mean well, some actually DO well). I think the sense of community and charitable outreach can benefit members and outsiders alike. I've tossed aside faith; never really believed it since I was a pre-teen despite my upbringing. Believers are too ready to dismiss losing faith as a simple, knee-jerk reaction to something. I'd argue that losing (or actually facing a lack of) faith is really quite difficult. Being secular in the US isn't easy or popular. You are a minority. You don't go atheist to gain popularity, I assure you.

I'm wandering off a bit, sorry. Whichever it is with BlueWolf I hope he has adequately explained to his W that views of morality need not change. That is the toughest thing to sell. I equate it with the popular definition of character:  its how you act when no one is looking. If you can sell the character/moral person issue it may diminish much of the blowback.

BlueWolf

codename_duchess said:

http://www.recoveringfromreligion.org/hotline-project/ 1-84-I-Doubt-It (1.844.368.2848) is set up to provide assistance for times like this. They will help you to find the resources to help you through this. They aren't there to convert, but to provide a non-judgemental ear during a time that many find difficult. One of the first things that they list is dealing with marital issues when someone no longer believes what they used to believe.
I understand that this is hard and that it's easy to get into arguments which seem so personal. I wish you good luck.

Thx, will keep that in mind. Seems like a good resource, have a couple of good friends I can talk with for now but thx it´s appreciated.