Is this the end? Faith related crisis!

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  • BlueWolfBlueWolf The grasslandsSilver Member Posts: 606
    Roses said:
    At some point, you chose to be baptized or confirmed, depending on your Church, right? Some solomn vows, taken before God and the congregation. At another point, you chose to take some solomn vows to your wife before God and the congregation, right?
    You just told your wife that you aren't keeping the first set of vows anymore, or at least it sounds to this internet stranger that you think she heard you say that. Any wonder she's not confident you're going to keep the second set?
    What sort of reassurance can you offer that would mean something to her? I'm sure she had some suspicion something was off, but didn't know what it was. It sounds like, from what you reported, that she is worried about what changes you will make in your lives and if you intend to stay or go.

    Point taken. This view helps me understand how big this seems to her even though I now Thinks it´s unrealistic that we dont change in some ways during life. But I totally get that some Changes can be major and many others minor.

    "The male lion doesn't get pissy." Tennee        

    "In the middle of winter I at last discovered that there was in me an invincible summer."  A.Camus

    "Be the change you want!" Forum-wisdom

     

             

  • BlueWolfBlueWolf The grasslandsSilver Member Posts: 606
    Mongrel said:
    I've gone through this scenario but (luckily) at a much lower level of angst. I got married as a lackluster Christian and over time came to understand and accept I never really believed in any of it. My wife still follows her faith haphazardly...in my observation it is mostly out of duty to family and her own way of dealing with life. She is not the type of person to ask hard questions about much of anything, so confronting the question of faith is something she would shy away from.

    My problem is that I wasn´t a lackluster christian. I was not happy but I was sincere and devout. So I can see that my change can be seen more of a bait & switch. My W doesn´t ask to much hard questions either, problem is that I do.

    It has leaked out to most people that I am an atheist. Her family is disappointed, which makes her disappointed. I show up for the occasional service to keep the peace and provide relationship comfort. It took me awhile to get over feeling hypocritical about it. The topic has become a subject we just don't talk about and for us it seems to work.

    I can relate to feeling hypocritical, now when it´s out I dont feel so disturbed by going to Church strange enough. But I dont long to go there either.

    I think the outward appearances are probably a huge driving factor to how your wife is reacting. She's embarrassed and afraid of how her family and congregation will view HER if word gets out. Certainly her views on faith and the afterlife contribute to the angst but I think the embarrassment is really one of the biggest factors to your disharmony.

    Thas probably a ascpect of it but the biggest was probably that her dream of a future with us in joint service shattered. I tried to calm her that I still want to to good things but not necessarily religious stuff all the time.

    My only advice is to just be careful on how you treat religion around her. You can't make fun of it, roll your eyes or be anything less than silent when it comes up in conversation. Someone's faith is sort of like their child and most people won't tolerate any lack of respect about it. This can be hard when your outlook is that religion is absurd and prayers do nothing (you may not be that far along) and you find it impossible to comprehend how otherwise intelligent people believe in a celestial Santa Claus. That is how I view it, but you can see how my voicing any of that would create a shitstorm with even a casually religious person.

    Yes I will heed that advice.  

    The thing is that your faith - or lack of it - is a very large part of being true to yourself. This is something you cannot lie to yourself about. It is a very narrow seesaw between being a man and faking it for the benefit of your spouse and marriage. The same rules apply:  calm, assertive Captaining but with a understanding that your wife has lost something in her relationship foundation. It is possible to co-exist with two opposing viewpoints but only if BOTH of you are willing to make the compromise. Half of this will be on her.

    I have found this to be true, all of it.

    "The male lion doesn't get pissy." Tennee        

    "In the middle of winter I at last discovered that there was in me an invincible summer."  A.Camus

    "Be the change you want!" Forum-wisdom

     

             

  • BlueWolfBlueWolf The grasslandsSilver Member Posts: 606
    Tennee said:
    I generally try to avoid discussions like this...which obviously I didn't do this time.   Disclaimer:  I am a Christian; often a really crappy one too.   That said...

    "I´m not hostile and have some kind of faith in God even though I have a hard time to believe like the church in all things."

    I would make sure you tell her this.  If its not directly a disbelief in God - but more a disillusionment of the institution of the church- communicate that.  Because those are two vastly, vastly different things.  One is a complete rejection of a belief system, the other is directed at the interpretation/application of said belief system. 

    You're now on a journey, at least from what I take from what you wrote above, to interpret the belief system.  Rather, how you will apply your Faith. 

    Warning:  I'm now going to discuss religion.  Avert your eyes as necessary. 

    Research the term Gnostic and Gnosticism and start reading.  Also, read about the Nag Hammadi Library (very different from the 'Dead Sea Scrolls'), particularly the 'Book of Thomas' or the 'Gospel of Thomas' (GTh).   These are ancient texts, obviously connected to the very earliest of the Church's origins.  They frankly upset the apple-cart of the organized Church; so much so that many within the power structure decry the texts as heresy. 

    I have problems with the institution sometimes.  Of course, the institution is run by humans - rife with our frailties and weaknesses.   So, maybe your journey is about exploring the options outside of the institution. 

    Some of you will think I had several Bloody Marys at breakfast today, cause now I'm gonna quote scripture.  From Luke 17:21:  "...for behold, the Kingdom of God is in the midst of you."   My bolding for emphasis.  

    I really like something from GTh a lot, and I first heard it in a movie of all things (Stigmata from the 90s), which is what got me reading on this whole Gnostic thing a long time ago.  From GTh (77):  'Jesus said "...split a piece of wood and I am there.  Lift up a stone, and you will find Me" '.

    So, maybe its about figuring out your own personal application of faith, vs. an institutional application. 
    Some intresting stuff & thoughts in there. May look into that in the future when I feel the need to explore more.

    "The male lion doesn't get pissy." Tennee        

    "In the middle of winter I at last discovered that there was in me an invincible summer."  A.Camus

    "Be the change you want!" Forum-wisdom

     

             

  • BlueWolfBlueWolf The grasslandsSilver Member Posts: 606
    _io said:
    I am empathetic to both your viewpoints.  For a wife losing her spiritual head, it can be devastating.  She no doubt feels all of a sudden unmoored and adrift when she thought she was safely anchored.  Fear often manifests as anger, so I would be prepared to hold tight to an absolutely solid frame.  She's lost you in the religious sense; she'll need you to be strong as simply her husband even more.  Strong but compassionate.  Now is not the time to get defensive, sarcastic or dismissive.  You've had a loooong time to adjust.  She hasn´t.

    Great insights, seems to be true all of it.

    I'm not married, but I have some experience with what she's going through.  When I was very young, about 6 or 7 I think, I overheard a comment that made me realize my father who occasionally attended services and socialized with the people in our religious group wasn't actually a believer.  It was no secret.  I just had no idea.  I can hardly express my feelings in that moment.  But seismic is not too strong of a metaphor.  My entire universe was reordered.  In fact, 40 years later, remembering that moment, I actually started crying.  It must be body memory because this is not anything that bothers my anymore and hasn't for decades.

    Thx for sharing, really insigtful actually.

    Regardless of the hurt, it's better to be honest.  You couldn't keep lying to her.  It wouldn't be fair to either one of you.  Lying creates distance and even contempt.  This is a very uncomfortable situation that you're just going to have to endure until things calm down.  Unless she actually serves you with divorce papers, just reassure her you still love her and support her in her beliefs even though you don't share them.

    Thx, really appreciate the compassion and wisdom.

    I'll pray for you.  ;)


    "The male lion doesn't get pissy." Tennee        

    "In the middle of winter I at last discovered that there was in me an invincible summer."  A.Camus

    "Be the change you want!" Forum-wisdom

     

             

  • BlueWolfBlueWolf The grasslandsSilver Member Posts: 606

    I agree with @athol_kay. Go about your normal way right now. Maybe try to be funny if you can when the moment is right. Just give her time to see you haven't changed much if at all. 

    The problem is that I have changed in some ways, but I will make an effort to show that I´m still a reliable and moral person.


    "The male lion doesn't get pissy." Tennee        

    "In the middle of winter I at last discovered that there was in me an invincible summer."  A.Camus

    "Be the change you want!" Forum-wisdom

     

             

    Roses
  • BlueWolfBlueWolf The grasslandsSilver Member Posts: 606
    Maria said:
    This can be a real concern. What denomination church are you in out of curiosity. My advice is to not let the lack of religiousness show. Don't go out and start drinking (if your church forbids it) or getting a tattoo (if also frowned upon). Keep your outward appearance and actions with what is consistent with your church. This will be very important. 

     
    I'm not sure I agree.
    Certainly, don't start drinking and don't get a tattoo out of contrariness. That would be childish, immature and inflicting unnecessary pain on your wife.
    But one's outward appearance and actions should primarily be consistent with one's views and taste. We need to be true to ourselves first and foremost. While it's important to take one's partner's opinion into account, superficially submitting to the rules of a church you don't belief in anymore is basically hypocrisy - especially if these rules go way beyond what is deemed basic decency. And it's going to suck your energy.

    Thx, this is how I feel.

    Be the ethical man you are. Tell and show your wife that you love her, that you are reliable and moral. Reassure her that you respect her religion and support her in her faith. But don't fake anything and don't put on a show for the sake of others.

    Really good advice, will try to follow it.

    I'm sorry things are so tough for you now. Thx.


    "The male lion doesn't get pissy." Tennee        

    "In the middle of winter I at last discovered that there was in me an invincible summer."  A.Camus

    "Be the change you want!" Forum-wisdom

     

             

  • BlueWolfBlueWolf The grasslandsSilver Member Posts: 606


    I can only reiterate that you need to stay calm and in your own frame while all this is going on. You still seem to have some level of faith and have worked hard to be a great husband and these are things I think your wife needs to understand. Also don't give up hope, I think your wife is like mine, the initial anger can feel like a hurricane and it can feel like things are going to end, been there a couple of times myself. Subjectively however it's a much harder path for her to follow to nuke her family and then face the, at least tacit, sanction of her church community, than to work on her marriage to a nominally Christian husband who just doesn't go to her church.

    Thx friend. Yes it certainly feels like a thunderstorm. True and good insights.


    As to the "bait and switch," the advice Athol gave is great, the best way forward is to accept the outward responsibility as the Captain. However be aware this is not entirely your fault so you don't need to feel guilty for this. From where I am sitting, based on what you have said, your wife has put both feet firmly into the trap of "unstated expectations are premeditated resentments." I think you need to see this as a covert contract of hers you have discovered.

    This a tricky one, at some Point it wasn´t covert. It was spoken and agreed upon. That it may be unreasonable to not change at all during life is Another matter.

    Part of the challenge you face is that you can't confront her with any of the above information. She is too fragile from past trauma and not self aware enough to not just shoot the messenger.

    Stay strong Captain Blue_Wolf. Thx friend!



    "The male lion doesn't get pissy." Tennee        

    "In the middle of winter I at last discovered that there was in me an invincible summer."  A.Camus

    "Be the change you want!" Forum-wisdom

     

             

  • BlueWolfBlueWolf The grasslandsSilver Member Posts: 606
    WhereWasI said:
    @BlueWolf, kudos for bravery and putting this out there.

    I think there is a way for you to put this in a light that gives her peace. But it really depends on the strength of her faith, not yours. If she truly believes and trusts in God and that He has control, then she can let you go.  You were always His anyways.  This is just you finally getting to your real doubts and issues. If God is real and wants you, then there was never anything for her to do with your faith anyways.  She may be afraid of giving up her illusion of control.

    This is really good, I feel strongly this way. Just not sure how much she can see it in this light.



    Good luck riding this out and finding resolution. 


    "The male lion doesn't get pissy." Tennee        

    "In the middle of winter I at last discovered that there was in me an invincible summer."  A.Camus

    "Be the change you want!" Forum-wisdom

     

             

  • BlueWolfBlueWolf The grasslandsSilver Member Posts: 606
    Adam_S said:

    From what I gather, at least some Christians seem to struggle with the idea that if somebody doesn't believe in God then they have no reason to act as a decent or moral person. I think she needs to know that you're still the same person and that you're still the captain of the ship.

    True and myself struggled with that concept once upon a time.

    I think the advice others have given about not mocking or being hostile to her faith is good as well. You're asking her to accept your (lack of) beliefs so you need to show that you still accept hers too.

    Oh and @tennee is right, the gnostic gospels are a fascinating area of study. They actually made a great deal of sense out of Christianity for me, at least when you start to figure out what the hell they're on about.

    Sounds like it´s worth a look. Out of curiosity if nothing else. 


    "The male lion doesn't get pissy." Tennee        

    "In the middle of winter I at last discovered that there was in me an invincible summer."  A.Camus

    "Be the change you want!" Forum-wisdom

     

             

  • BlueWolfBlueWolf The grasslandsSilver Member Posts: 606
    edited April 13
    Athol_Kay said:
    Adam_S said:

    From what I gather, at least some Christians seem to struggle with the idea that if somebody doesn't believe in God then they have no reason to act as a decent or moral person.

    They don't struggle with it, it's a fairly direct teaching in many churches.

    If there's a struggle, it's that if non-believers can live an essentially good and moral life, believers are expending a lot of time, money and effort on something that may not actually be providing them with the advertised benefits of being a more moral person.


    May be so, i will chew on that one for a while.

    Athol_Kay said:
     

    Give that viewpoint some time to think about.

    Unusually generous people exist in all faiths and lack thereof. It's not limited to Christians. Also for many of those super generous, it's actually a form of dysfunction. It is possible to give too much and not have enough for yourself or family as a result. Balance is important. I have found this to be true.

    Also there's often an awful lot of extra moral credit given to Christians, simply for being Christians, and the good that secular people do is often discounted as somehow being worldly and defective by default.

    This may be true, I will give it some more thought.

    If you judge people by what they actually do, not what they say they believe, results tend to be more accurate.

    Can´t really go wrong with those wise words. Simple statement but so good and effective.. 


    I really rather not turn this thread into a discussion about christian faith. I would like it to remain about my personal journey. But with that said I honestly appreciate all posts here so far. Intresting and lot to think about.  

    "The male lion doesn't get pissy." Tennee        

    "In the middle of winter I at last discovered that there was in me an invincible summer."  A.Camus

    "Be the change you want!" Forum-wisdom

     

             

  • BlueWolfBlueWolf The grasslandsSilver Member Posts: 606
    MrGrimm said:
    I agree with the above.  A lot of people turn from faith because of the actions of other, less than perfect people.  To me that is completely misguided.  It's like me saying I'm never going to buy a GM car again and bad mouthing them because I had a bad experience with the local GM dealer.  A poor experience with a dealer (or church) is just a reflection of the imperfect people that work there; not the product being sold.  We're all imperfect; and as we all know, even "those perfect Christians" are going to make bad choices.  That just reflects on us, not who Jesus is.
     I wont delve to deep in my reasons but they´re a little more complex than just that. But you´re point is valid if that was the only aspect in play.

    "The male lion doesn't get pissy." Tennee        

    "In the middle of winter I at last discovered that there was in me an invincible summer."  A.Camus

    "Be the change you want!" Forum-wisdom

     

             

  • BlueWolfBlueWolf The grasslandsSilver Member Posts: 606
    I should clarify too -- I'm not advocating for a particular religion, or religion in general for that matter. I'm simply pointing out that I think many people, myself included fell/fall into the trap of mixing up the concept of faith with a specific institution, or its leaders.  True enough.

    TLDR version: When I was 19, instead of going overboard and saying "fuck Jesus and this church bullshit", I probably should've said "fuck Father Mike and Sister Mary and their bullshit" instead. **

    ** Then again, if Father Mike had dropped the bullshit and fucked Sister Mary, maybe things would've been a lot different. That's a possibility too. Funny but probably very true. To be such a educated and talented guy you can be very funny & even a bit raunchy... ( a good spirited jab if it wasn´t clear enough! ) 


    "The male lion doesn't get pissy." Tennee        

    "In the middle of winter I at last discovered that there was in me an invincible summer."  A.Camus

    "Be the change you want!" Forum-wisdom

     

             

  • BlueWolfBlueWolf The grasslandsSilver Member Posts: 606
    Mongrel said:
    I'm sure BlueWolf knows if his departure is from the institution or faith in general. What I'm wondering is if he relayed the same information to his W.

    Thx and you´re right. My reasion is more complex than just some random dissapointment.


    My W would be far happier if I simply didn't like her church but still had faith. Unfortunately for her, I'm okay with most churches (most mean well, some actually DO well). I think the sense of community and charitable outreach can benefit members and outsiders alike. I've tossed aside faith; never really believed it since I was a pre-teen despite my upbringing. Believers are too ready to dismiss losing faith as a simple, knee-jerk reaction to something. I'd argue that losing (or actually facing a lack of) faith is really quite difficult. Being secular in the US isn't easy or popular. You are a minority. You don't go atheist to gain popularity, I assure you.

    Thx, Í´m actually quite moved by those words. This process has been scary, painful and made me feel like loosing my own identity at times. Where I live atheists is majority but I more of a agnostic or maybe christian in the much broader perspective. Still in my circle and famuly I´m now in minority. Or there are many more like me that just dont speak about it. And like you I can see both good things with the church along the bad stuff.

    I'm wandering off a bit, sorry. Whichever it is with BlueWolf I hope he has adequately explained to his W that views of morality need not change. That is the toughest thing to sell. I equate it with the popular definition of character:  its how you act when no one is looking. If you can sell the character/moral person issue it may diminish much of the blowback.

    I have tried to be as honest as possible even though it´s hard to just pour out it all. She has to process it. I put the emphasis on more of our common ground than my biggest daughts, but just to open the door to this is huge.




    "The male lion doesn't get pissy." Tennee        

    "In the middle of winter I at last discovered that there was in me an invincible summer."  A.Camus

    "Be the change you want!" Forum-wisdom

     

             

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