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Intro & My Triage - Losing Attraction to my Fiancee & Don't Know What to Do
htx2008
Silver Member Posts: 24
Hi all, long time reader of MMSL, and I first read MMSLP 4 years ago when my girlfriend (call her Jane) and I hit a rough patch. I started running the MAP and things got much better. We moved in together and are getting married in 4 months. Problem is, I just realized that I’m not attracted to her anymore and feel ‘ILYBINILWY’ toward her. I don’t want to throw in the towel and really want to make it work, but it’s getting harder and harder by the day.
I’m just waking up to it now, but this has all happened over the course of the past year. Sex has declined to about once a week because I stopped initiating as frequently. I’m just not as in to her anymore. My sex drive is very high, and I look to masturbation and porn for satisfaction (porn is on and off, don’t consider myself an addict). We can get going when we kiss and start foreplay, but it’s harder for me to be into her. We bicker about little things around the house more and more, and I’ve basically stopped caring. I spend less time alone with her because it reminds me how much I’ve lost attraction and am not happy in the relationship. I keep a busy and active social life outside, and she often comments that she wishes we could spend more time together.
I didn’t realize what was happening, and only recently woke up to it all when another girl flipped my dopamine switch… my fiancée’s younger sister (Kate). I’ve known Kate as long as I’ve known Jane and always found her attractive but never had any further thoughts or temptations because I was in love with Jane. Kate was in college when Jane and I first started dating, but is now 26 and has matured into a very attractive young woman. She moved to the same city as us and we have become a lot closer as friends in the last year. She is very similar to Jane in a lot of ways, but also more attractive. I now get the giddy ‘in love’ feelings when we hang out and want to spend more and more time with her. I pick up occasional flirty vibes from her, but don’t put much thought into how mutual the attraction is. Obviously making a move and isolating/escalating to find out is out of question. She has a serious boyfriend of over a year who I really like, but she mentioned to me recently over a few drinks that she’s concerned because the sparks are fading and he hasn’t been a great kisser. I also notice her shit testing him on a regular basis. Talk about temptation.
I think the driver of this whole thing is that the MAP has worked very well for me over the past 4 years. I was 25 when I met Jane, 26 when I started the MAP, and had always been more of a beta. I worked on the alpha traits, and I’m now 30 and hitting my prime. I increased SR from a 7 to an 8, and am trying to get to a 9 or as close as possible anyway. I work out 5+ times per week, lift heavy weights with my guy friends, play sports and am in the best shape of my life. My career has also advanced. I have a better job at a name-brand consulting firm and am up for a promotion and raise in June. My confidence and assertiveness have increased, and I’m now the AMOG in my social circle. Jane compliments me often and tells me I’m more attractive and sexier than ever. She reacts positively when I initiate sex and I’m rarely turned down. She and her girlfriends have told me that my guy friends look to me as their older brother (huge compliment as I’m an only child). They also see me as their protective older brother.
Jane is still objectively attractive but has become grumpier and frumpier over the last year. I look at old photos of us, and it’s a night and day difference between her clothes and appearance. Lot of bickering about little things around the house (leaving a dish in the sink, forgetting to hang up a shirt, etc.). Constant complaining about work. No more sexy clothes. I gave up on buying her sexy lingerie as it never leaves the drawer. I think at some point after we moved in the nagging hit a tipping point and I just stopped caring… she basically became a 2nd mom.
When we met I was a 7, her an 8. Now she’s a 7 and I’m an 8. I’ve always gotten interest from decent looking girls, but now much more attractive girls are showing interest. Girls that were out of my league a few years ago are now in play. I live in a big city full of young people. I’ve never cheated or been severely tempted, but her sister Kate really has tripped the dopamine switch and I can’t get her out of my head.
So here I am today, 4 months away from our wedding date and have no idea where to go. Deposits have been put down, dresses/tuxes bought, honeymoon planed, the whole 9 yards. If we weren't engaged then I'd ask for some space/time apart to figure things out. Basically I either have to call the wedding off ASAP or go all in to try to salvage the relationship. I want to tell her that I'm losing attraction and falling for someone else… honestly it would be such a relief to get off my chest. However but that's clearly not an option given that it's her sister.
We’re going to a relationship counseling session next week about the common bickering but there’s so much more to it than that. What do I do from here? I want to fix the relationship, get married and be happy together but it’s getting harder every day. I really want to tell her that it’s harder to be attracted to her now but feel like that would be devastating. The thing with her sister also makes it hard to get it off my chest.
Triage:
Q1: We’ve been together for 5 years, engaged for 5 months. I’m 30, she’s 27. No children. When we met I was a 7, her an 8. Now I’m an 8 (maybe 9 if I were taller), she’s a 7. She’s 5’6, 130lbs. I’m not a tall guy at 5’8, but am at 170lbs with a good amount of muscle and a defined build.
Q2: No significant medical issues. She’s generally healthy and has always had a healthy sex drive. She does have ongoing acne issues but nothing severe. I am prone to recurring depression, but keep it in check with medication and therapy. It’s never caused me to miss work or social obligations, but puts me in a gloomy mood for a few weeks at a time. I don’t take SSRIs or any meds that interfere with my sex drive.
Q3: No major structural issues. Both of us are debt-free and make good money. Her salary is ~4% higher than mine which is a dent in my ego but not a sore subject between us. Both of us are in in good health and good shape, though I’d wish she would trim down a bit and buy sexier clothes. I got laid off from a job about 2 years ago and was unemployed for a few months. She wasn’t financially supporting me, but was very emotionally supportive and helped me get my current job, and we now work for the same company.
Q4: Nothing major I’m aware of. I travel 3 days a week for work now and spend a lot of time with my friends. She has told me she wants more attention, affection, cuddling etc.
Q5: I’m 100% certain she’s not seeing someone else, nor am I. I use porn but not excessively (once per week tops)
Q6: I’d say 1.5 years ago. It was a slow decline, and I grew bored and have become less attracted and basically gave up on trying new things as they were met with little to no success.
Q7: Fantastic. Couldn’t keep our hands off each other. She was a virgin when we met.
Q8: We broke briefly 4 years ago. The honeymoon period ended, sexual chemistry had faded and she gave me the ILYBINILWY line and we broke up for a week. It came out of nowhere from my perspective so I was devastated. She came back a week later wanting to get back together. I got back together with her, but definitely put her through the ringer for a bit afterward. I verified that there was not another man involved. She also experienced depression/anxiety during this time and took meds for a few months.
Comments
Q9: I’m the leader and we have a good C/FO setup in our relationship.
Q10: I loved spending time with her. I’d blow off texts from my friends to spend time with her. We had tons of fun together and couldn’t keep our hands off each other, having weekend sex marathons.
My response has been a mix of compliance with reasonable requests (e.g. don't leave dirty dishes in the sink), but to push back when I felt like she was getting ridiculous or overly aggressive. The nags have declined over the past few months and we have more proactive conversations about keeping the house tidy, and have worked together to throw out things and de-clutter. She has commented recently that things are better around the house and she seems happier.
I guess at somewhere along the line a switch flipped in my head and I started losing attraction. She doesn't reject physical contact, quite the opposite. Now she laments that I don't cuddle and provide enough affection. When I initiate physical contact, kissing or sex she normally responds positively and I'm rarely turned down. I'm just losing the interest to initiate... Perhaps she doesn't feel I'm providing enough comfort-building beta presence?
Only worse when when kids come along.
Something tells me if she continues this after wedding you'll soon find yourself cheating on her. You already have an eye for her sis. And if you are a SR 8 you'll be tempted by other women.
So dating that long, did she pretty much say marry me and stop getting milk for free??
This is a concern. She might not have an incentive to sexy up when youre gone 50% of the time.
As as stated above, she's in mommy mode (nagging). While I agree that there might be a lack of captain'ing on your part, there are women (very low minority) that will nag no matter what. Think long and hard. We're there red flags before you moved in?
And yes, it will not improve at all once you walk the aisle. There might be a spike, if you give her the truth, but for the most part this is it.
Danger, Will Robinson! Danger! Just say no to any thoughts about her sister. PREVENT yourself from being in an isolated situation with her.
Deal with this relationship, first, and if it ends/is ended, take a breather before going anywhere near her sister.
Porn and you have someone that would rather have your sexual attention right there and eager. Not a good sign.
My two cents on your situation. If you are having major attraction issues before she has had children, grown older, frequently declined sex, where will you be when those are any other of a host of chronic relationship problems crop up as they are want to do. The engagement and first year or so of marriage are typically (not always) the glory years of a relationship. If this isn't just engagement jitters, you have a major problem. It will be better to end it now than the week before the wedding or 7 years after you get married. Engagement is NOT marriage. Once the vow is made, are you going to be able to live by it?
Be sure this isn't pre-wedding jitters and make a decision.
"So dating that long, did she pretty much say marry me and stop getting milk for free??"
No ultimatum was given & I wasn't pressured into proposing. We met when she was 22 and we were in no rush. The timeline felt very natural for both of us.
"As as stated above, she's in mommy mode (nagging). While I agree that there might be a lack of captain'ing on your part, there are women (very low minority) that will nag no matter what. Think long and hard. We're there red flags before you moved in?"
We have had a few tiffs and one major blow up about the cleanliness of my bedroom at my last house before we moved in together. It was an ongoing sore spot for her and it's basically the only thing that we fought/fight over. Last I talked to her about it she said she's been happy with the house recently.
I also spoke with her over dinner tonight about the travel and asked if she felt it was putting a strain on our relationship. She said that it's fine and she sometimes feels very connected because we always make time to talk on the phone every night when I'm away. She said it was harder getting my attention when I'm at home with her. My company also just reduced my travel to 2 nights/3 days per week, so I'm back in bed with her 5/7 nights, and it's going to cut down even more in the coming months.
Basically, my worry is that I've hit a point of no return. Somewhere along the line, I lost attraction and turned my sexual attention elsewhere. Now I need to figure out if I can bring it back to her.
While we are not asking you to "eject" tonight, the forum wants you to reasses your situation. Delaying the wedding sounds like the right move.
It's nice that you had this talk with your fiancé. But one thing I've learned on this forum is action over words. Your woman will prob tell you what you want to hear. She doesn't want to loose you. Remember, according to you, you're higher SR.
Has there been any changes in birth control over the years?
but don't admit to being attracted to another woman and DON'T say who it is - then work on yourself to put her out of your head entirely ... make it the same as a teenage boy looking at the swimsuit models in SI - just a fantasy not related to real life ... i mean, face it, you'd NEVER have a reality-based chance with the sister if you break up with your fiancee ... and if you did, it would be a world of drama forever... so coach yourself thru it and let it go
make it come out that you are losing attraction to her because of her choices
make it come out that the nagging has to stop - do your part by maintaining frame and refusing to bicker back if she starts ... let her know that you will always respond with respect to a reasonable request made in a reasonable way, even if your answer to the request is 'no' but let her know that anything unreasonable or said in an unreasonable way will be met with an impenetrable brick wall until she corrects her approach ... lead the conversation about cleanliness standards and division of labor, then be above reproach in the timeliness and quality of doing your fair share
make it come out that the frumpiness and lack of attention to girl game is a factor and express that you believe maintaining max possible attractiveness for life is on both of you
let it come out that you have worked to improve yourself dramatically and consistently for the last several years and fully in tent to continue to improve to be an ever improving version of yourself expect her to do the same - let i tbe clear that it is not acceptable to you for her to have the 'i got my man now i don't have to put any effort/energy into the relationship any more' attitude
oh yeah, stop porn entirely ... i wont get into if you are or or not 'addicted', i'll just share my opinion that it sets up a comparison in your head between unreality and your reality that leaves you unhappy
you might even go so far as to say that if she thinks she can find a better man than you who would also accept her being less and less over time, that she should probably call off the wedding to go try to find him ...
be able to describe the things you fell in love with her for and how they have gone away over the last few years and expect her to be putting the effort in to keep things up, not let them disintegrate further
encourage her to get herself back to her highest potential attractiveness and put energy into doing fun things in balance with necessary RC ... but dont reward her for being less and less over time
good luck
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Fuck Culture. Live your life - Beatrice
Where does this fit into the timeline? Did she frump up after this? I'm wondering if there's been a loss of respect and thus she may no longer find you 'worthy' of such effort (girl game, etc).
"Where does this [unemployment] fit into the timeline? Did she frump up after this? I'm wondering if there's been a loss of respect and thus she may no longer find you 'worthy' of such effort (girl game, etc)."
Likely part of the problem. Though the frump didn't happen during unemployment, the experience was a huge ego blow and a pretty tough time for me. Until that point I had been the 'leader' RE our careers. She was in grad school when we met and I helped her interview for and get her first job, which happened to be at the company where we both work today. I was in a great place then and had just negotiated a 25% raise at my company. I later accepted a new job at a tech start up that was supposed to be an upward move, but didn't pan out and I was laid off in early 2014. Since then she's made slightly more money than me even though we're now at the same level at the same company. I'm up for an early promotion and raise this summer which will put me 'ahead' of her. I probably put too much into it, but it's an ego sore spot for me and she knows it. She also bore the brunt of my complaining/venting during the period leading up until and after the layoff which was probably a DLV.
I think I also lost my frame after we moved in together and unknowingly enabled the nagging. She became more demanding about the dishes, cleaning, etc. She became more snappy and impatient. My response basically was to blow it off/ignore her at best, or engage in bickering at worst. Example: she would complain about the kitchen, the house, work, etc. I'd tune her out at first, then she would become aggravated and start an argument. Things would devolve from there. I sometimes mutter, "what am I in trouble for this time?" Probably a DLV that I've just gone along with the nagging.
If I had a lower SR than her, I'd just comply and try to keep her happy, jumping through the hoops hoping it leads to more sex. Instead, I just stopped caring all together and lost attraction to her. I comply her requests to keep her from nagging me. Or sometimes I just don't care and blow them off. Basically, she made the jump from girlfriend to mom in my mind, and I started seeking sexual satisfaction elsewhere... porn, her flirtatious sister, etc.
Socially I spend more time with my guy friends and stay out late while she stays at home. I gave up on trying to arrange social plans for us Friday/Saturday evening because she never wants to stay out. Heck, I hang out with HER friends more often than she does because she's always tired and crabby.
Meanwhile she largely seems happy in our life and relationship, though she's lately been pining for more attention. She compliments my looks, touches me, definitely shows a desire for affection. Problem is that it falls on deaf ears because I'm mentally checking out. I'm just not attracted because she still nags and the girl game has gone away.
All of these problems aside, we've had a great relationship together. We always have meshed very well and our personalities are very complimentary. We travel very well together and have taken international trips. There used to be sparks and magic, it just has dissipated and I really would rather get it back then call the wedding off.
First day of RC is Friday afternoon. Thanks again for all the help--your comments and feedback have made me think deeper and provided much needed insight.
Towards the end of my marriage with my ExW we took plenty of exotic trips. They were awesome. Every single time we came back we started googling new locations.
The trips were spikes/highs in our marriage but they were also a cover mask for all of our problems. We masked our marriage issues with margaritas and hotel sex.
Our marriage, at the end, was nothing more than an anticipation for a new upcoming trip or reflection of a recent one.
Just my own 8 centy (2 pennies)
It's obvious why you're losing attraction.
She's not being attractive
A girl letting herself go (becoming frumpy) will do exactly the same thing to to a guy . . . as a guy turning into a whining beta will do to a girl . . . kill attraction.
Of course you're losing attraction.
From the way you've been writing, I would say attractive, sexy appearance is one of your key requirements in a partner.
I'd also guess from the way you've been writing, that you've been beating yourself up a little about this.
That's understandable. American culture is full of self-abegnating cliches about how we should ignore supposed "superficialities" like appearance and be admirable to others by looking at the "deeper" "soul" of a person. "Beauty is only skin deep" is one of the cliches.
Fuck that shit. Own who you are and admit you've got a deep-seated requirement for your woman to be beautiful, and to show that she admires you by taking care of herself and wants to turn you on by wearing sexy stuff.
Also, the very first step to you regaining your mojo and becoming the Alpha you need to be again, will be to set that as a requirement for any woman to be with you.
She may not have genetic 10 features, but every woman has a beauty she can cultivate or wreck, and believe me, when she wants a man, she'll cultivate it. Helena Rubenstien said something relevant here: "There are no ugly women, just lazy ones"
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Now, on to the fact that she has requirements of her own for a partner.
She's a neat freak. You're not a slob, but not as particular as her. And you have a mismatch.
Fine, everyone has their own level of desire for house appearance.
Here's a difference between her and you, though.
She has definitely owned her requirement for an immaculate house with nothing left askew even for an instant.
She's more assertive, though, and started trying to take charge and get you to cooperate with her housecleaning agenda the only way she knows how, by nagging.
She's also feeling somewhat entitled to ignore your requirement for sexyness. She clearly has to know you desire it, since you've tried gettting her sexy things.
But does she know it's a requirement?
She won't until you take charge, in an Alpha, male way.
Sear this into your brain:
Bickering is beta
Bickering indicates your submission to her "frame"
You're an Alpha man. you know what you need to do in your life, and you lead.
How to lead when a woman is trying to dominate you, or bully you is a big topic, but I'm sure you know what to do, based on your past MMSL accomplishments.
Fighters have an expression for when a guy gives up, stops fighting, and becomes willing to take any punishment inflicted on him. They call him "whipped"
Becoming whipped (having the fight taken out of you) is deeply betaizing for a guy to a woman.
This isn't going to get better until you pick yourself up and take charge again.
The very first step in rcovering, though, is to decide that you're willing to lose it all. That you're willing to cash in the chips and not accept something unacceptable if she's not willing to come to a meeting of the minds and hearts.
Ah, yes. The old sunk costs fallacy.
The stakes are definitely high, my friend, now that commitments to suppliers have been made, and cash has been laid down.
You're setting yourself up with false choices here.
Firstly, calling the wedding off is different from postponing the wedding.
But I know even a postponement will require growing some balls to do. Not trying to minimize the gravity of what that would mean.
You're going to lose a lot of money.
The posponement will also advertize to everybody that there are problems in your relationship. Definitely a fearful prospect if you are the kind of person who fears what people will think.
But this is fear-driven. And fear is betaizing to a woman.
Re-frame this as an opportunity.
An opportunity to re-grow your balls, to take charge, to assert your requirements in a clear way.
And, of course, you know it's actually cost-effective for you to lose your deposits.
Think about what a divorce 7 years down the road will cost if your "trying" to salvage the relationship fails, but you go ahead with this marriage anyway out of fear.
Now re-visualize the lost deposits as a Good Deal.
Also, "trying" to "salvage" the relationship is not the only alternative to "calling off the wedding," but I think you know that in your heart.
Ask?
Let me Alpha-ize this line for you:
"We may be engaged, but because I care about our future, I'm going to take time, and space too if that's also required, to figure this out, the right way.
I know where you're coming from. The brass ring looks like it's so close.
It's what you're heart's desire is. And you really care for her.
It's so tempting.
But you don't know yet whether it's a mirage, whether it's for real or a fantasy.
Classic "nice guy" issues.
You self-abegnate because you're afraid of "hurting her feelings"
Have you read Robert Glover's book, "No More Mr. Nice Guy?"
Do not do that.
If you solve this dilemma and get married, the fact that it was her sister would be an impossible thing to have hanging over your heads, and her sister's head, for that matter.
In this case you'll have to own your shit and deal with it like a man. Get help from some guy friends if need be.
Just to finish off:
She has no problem being assertive and telling you what her needs & requirements are.
Would you be up for getting more open with her, especially about how your attraction is being killed?
Also, realize that nothing will present her with a bigger wake-up call than to have the wedding date postponed.
2x4 therapy applied. Hope it has helped.
In the past week or so there were a couple (few) posts from noobs who are on the brink of marriage with reservations. The fact there are on this site with reservations is a good sign.
I'll like to add one more thing.
A friend of a friend got married with reservations. I asked why?
Her response. "Everything was paid for. I did not want disappoint the family. And we posted everything on Facebook, How happy we were"
The last one caught me off guard.
Facebook should not be the reason why you get married.
Im just saying this, because FB makes the world appear...Perfect. There's a reason why it's also called Fakebook.
"Sometimes the right thing and the hardest thing are the same"
You failed the initial neatness fitness tests. You displayed low value when you complained and vented to her about your old job. This was not "probably" a DLV. This was a massive frame loss and it undoubtedly affected how she viewed you. You went from super confident, handle anything guy to whiny frustrated guy. Then when things started really going downhill, you have just passive-aggressived your way through without proactively taking charge.
You haven't been giving her anything positive to respond to.
Right on. I'm now realizing the trap I've fallen into since we moved in together over the past 18 months.
I have read "No More Mr. Nice Guy" a few years back but will be re-reading again this week. Also dusted off the MMSLP and re-read the MAP chapter on the way back from work travel Thursday.
Update: I did get some good progress over the weekend. I came home Thursday evening after being gone a few days for work, and embraced the alpha attitude. I made the executive decision to have cocktail night on our back deck. She loves our deck and talks about wanting to spend more time together there. I stopped at the liquor store on the way home and picked up cocktail ingredients. When she came home, I told her what we were doing that night... I didn't "ask," I simply told her and she was pleased. She started getting crabby/naggy at one point, but I shut that shit down ASAP. "No, we're not going down that path now, we're going to enjoy our nice evening together." Bam. Date night back on track. Later, I told her to get in bed and to get under the covers. She seemed perplexed, I told her to shut the bedroom door and be under the covers in 10 seconds and started counting down. She complied, I joined her in bed, instigated, escalated and we enjoyed a great end to the evening.
Friday, I told her that we were going to have our friends over. In the past, I'd ask, "do you want to have people over tonight?" She would always hesitate, come up with excuses, etc... "the house isn't clean enough (seeing a pattern here?)", I'm too tired, etc." This time I said, "the weather is going to be nice, so I'm going to invite our friends over and fire up the grill." There was some initial hesitance, but I steamrolled forward. Note, despite her perpetual hesitance to anything fun, she always winds up enjoying these things. We had a very nice evening. My happiness level was much better.
First session of relationship counseling went pretty well and I felt better after. Given some recent realizations RE losing frame around the house, I didn't get into the nitty-gritty about her not being sexy anymore as I thought it would be counterproductive. We did talk about the household cleanliness. I indicated that I am happy to uphold my fair share of chores to keep the house to a level of cleanliness accepted by both of us, but that there will be no more arguments about the subject.
@_io, agree with the analysis. Sucks to hear, but true.
Good news is... overall things could definitely be a lot worse.
I've got my career back on track and have kept myself in great shape physically. I'm realizing through this thread that the big area of improvement is to remain alpha and maintain frame. I will NOT entertain anymore bickering or arguments about household cleanliness.
I'm not ready to postpone the wedding just yet. I want to see how her actions change given the change in mine. However, if things don't show improvement with my changed actions in the 1-2 weeks then that is the next step.