Women's happiness index has been steadily dropping over the last 50 years. I'm convinced this has to do with two major factors. One is less satisfying romantic relationships as men and women are taught to behave in ways that work against their body agenda. The second is that most women don't handle promiscuous sex well. They think they can have no strings attached sex "like a man," but they inevitably end up getting emotionally attached. This isn't true for all woman, but it's a large majority.
I feel bad for the OP because she believed the feminist line, that's why I said her past behavior was irrelevant to fixing the problem. There is nothing that can be done about it. It's been done. Now she can only try to fix her future.
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CrashaxePartytown, which is wherever I am.Gold Men Posts: 1,243
I'm pushing back against the framing of her actions as some sneaky bait-and-switch. She did not cheat on her fiance, she didn't break any vows. Her honor is intact. Her only fault is buying into the same feminism-influenced framework that he bought into.
She did not cheat, or bait-and-switch. If not for the ex coming forward, the fiance would probably have been happy as a clam.
I've never been in the fiance's situation. Nonetheless, as a male, when I try to put myself in the shoes of the fiance, no matter how I look at it, I'm left suspecting he feels as though he has been played like a fiddle. Right, wrong, or indifferent, I think I would feel icy cold rage if I were in his shoes.
It is a sad situation...
“I’m going to plead with you, do not cross us. Because if you do, the survivors will write about what we do here for 10,000 years.” General James Mattis, USMC
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WinterThe Island of MisFit ToysGold WomenPosts: 955
edited April 17
His 'icy rage' is of his own doing and I don't see why the OP should suffer or otherwise have to 'make amends' because of his bruised ego.
She has done nothing wrong.
5
WinterThe Island of MisFit ToysGold WomenPosts: 955
I also wanted to add that I can totally relate to the mindset of the OP. I too was scared that my sexuality would scare away my husband (a 'good man') and I kept it under wraps for a LONG time. God men want to marry 'good women'. That's the story they tell us.
However, after coming here I realized that way back when perhaps there was a 'attraction' issue. I was immensely attracted to my husband as a whole package, but some of that 'instant physical attraction' that I had experience with 'insignificant' people wasn't always there.
So my suggestion would be to really step back and think about the 'attraction' issue. Read the primer. See if any of it applies to your SO. Honestly if you have a good base level of attraction to start with, 'good guys' can learn to turn it WAY up. Just like I was afraid of sharing my sexuality, 'good guys' are often afraid of the same thing. My husband has shown me a side of himself I never knew existed, and let's say it matches up with my 'wild side' just fine.
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BlackwulfLeading the pack. Silver MemberPosts: 1,782
Sure his ego is bruised. His perception though has been shattered to a degree of who the OP is. The fact that this relationship was to be built on respect and the OP really down played her experience enough to where her fiance didn't think she was into something he wanted. That is a lack of respect for him being able to handle the truth of who she is as a sexual being.
The OP mislead him on her level of sexual experience. It came back to bite her. She has lied to him and got caught. If sexual past wasn't important to the fiance, why would the OP have down played it to such a degree?
The rage is definitely his own. The question is should he accept and forgive someone who lied to him. That is his call.
2
WinterThe Island of MisFit ToysGold WomenPosts: 955
Sure his ego is bruised. His perception though has been shattered to a degree of who the OP is. The fact that this relationship was to be built on respect and the OP really down played her experience enough to where her fiance didn't think she was into something he wanted. That is a lack of respect for him being able to handle the truth of who she is as a sexual being.
The OP mislead him on her level of sexual experience. It came back to bite her. She has lied to him and got caught. If sexual past wasn't important to the fiance, why would the OP have down played it to such a degree?
The rage is definitely his own. The question is should he accept and forgive someone who lied to him. That is his call.
Sorry but no.
We don't know the extent of the prior partner conversation so to call her a liar is a bit much
A little something to consider.
If you shame the woman you want to have wild and crazy sex with for having had wild and crazy sex you won't get wild and crazy sex.
She doesn't 'owe' him anything. She doesn't need to go have anal sex with him to prove anything. The idea that somehow she should put on a show for him is more distasteful to me than having a wild fling with douche bag guy.
Am I completely off base here?
6
CrashaxePartytown, which is wherever I am.Gold Men Posts: 1,243
Interestingly, if I had been responding to this 3 months ago before being on TRT, I would have said, "Meh.... No big deal."
“I’m going to plead with you, do not cross us. Because if you do, the survivors will write about what we do here for 10,000 years.” General James Mattis, USMC
As I said before, I think a useful way of framing it to him might include Wendy pointing out that the "wild" ex said this thing to him specifically as a cock-blocking maneuver.
Having once been on the receiving end of the same trick myself, I totally agree with @Persephone 's perspective and have found her clear statement of it helpful. It's not a case of bait'n switch but the man may (perhaps unconsciously) feel as if it is, so that impression, even if false, needs to be counteracted.
Enneagram type 5 w6.
If I offer lots of advice, it's probably really me giving advice to myself. That always seems to happen.
That would be unlikely that he would think less of you - especially since you have an established relationship. It is a myth that he would think less of you for doing sexual things with him that he wants to do.
I'm not sure about this. If I was in this situation, and my wife ramped up the sexual activities, in the back of my mind I'd be thinking that she's only doing this because she feels the need to, not because she wants to.
6
BlackwulfLeading the pack. Silver MemberPosts: 1,782
The OP's fiance has a lot to think about and his trust in her is a part of it whether that was her intent or not when she "down played" her past. She has agency in the making of this situation. She doesn't owe him sex in any manner. He also doesn't owe her anything if he decides to end the relationship. He has the right to be angry. He had an impression of her that has been proven false because she "down played" her past.
If she has withheld the truth from him because she's worried that he may think her a slut, then he may be going slow and not be pushing for what he wants. It may be that they are both happy having steamy sex, but she's not willing to admit that because she fears being judged, and he's not willing to admit it because she's never done it before and he doesn't want to push boundaries too quickly. I don't think he should shame her for it, but if they were both interested in non-vanilla and she pretended that she wasn't, then I can understand him feeling cheated. Yes, maybe if he had more game he would have got there anyway, but would he then be on her radar as a long-term prospect?
We don't know the extent of the prior partner conversation so to call her a liar is a bit much
A little something to consider.
If you shame the woman you want to have wild and crazy sex with for having had wild and crazy sex you won't get wild and crazy sex.
She doesn't 'owe' him anything. She doesn't need to go have anal sex with him to prove anything. The idea that somehow she should put on a show for him is more distasteful to me than having a wild fling with douche bag guy.
Am I completely off base here?
Well... I've always used my past as a selling point. It's like a secret superpower. So I'd give him a show. Something special. Not necessarily AS because that requires more planning, but maybe a few things he particularly enjoys all in one night. Maybe those shoes he likes, a little dance, a stellar bj, and some cowgirl action? I don't know, just suggestions off the top of my head.
All I'm saying is, marriage is a contract and he needs a sign of good faith. Talk about it later (if you must ), but re-build that connection immediately.
Is omission not a lie? Take all the game theory out of it and it boils down to a guy finding out details about someone he trusted enough to ask for marriage left out some details that were clearly discussed but omitted. No one would be able to experience this and not come away without feeling some negativity.
"I am engaged to the most wonderful man I have ever met. We just get along and click on pretty well everything (almost everything...). He's not as "experienced" as I am. When the talk about our pasts came up, I told him about my significant past boyfriends and did not talk about the "insignificant ones." I guess I did this to spare his feelings. I didn't want him feel hurt or funny or awkward."
She took it upon herself to create the narrative of her sexual past and it was exposed to be a lie. He is probably wondering what else was omitted to "spare his feelings". The breach of trust needs to be repaired. I am sure on some level he feels duped. The whole rationalization that HE needs to "man up" and MMSL his way into earning the sex he wants is small potatoes in comparison to the integrity issue.
I think it's fairly obvious that she consciously misrepresented her sexual history when he asked about it. There's a reasonable amount of room to debate why she did that, or whether or not she is defensible in doing that, yada yada yada, but ultimately she photoshopped her sexual history
I think she's going to need to apologize for misleading him and generally make a move toward greater honesty with each other about what they are seeking from the relationship and what their true needs are.
We can debate whether or not his reaction is appropriate, fair, or influenced negatively by [insert ideology], but the heart of the matter is he's in a great deal of shock. I'd guess he's experiencing about 70-80% of the level of emotionality that he'd be experiencing if she had literally been just discovered cheating on him. Except she's not actually cheating on him, so he's more paralyzed than expressive, because he's struggling internally about what to do about the situation.
At this point, it's not clear what he's going do. Even bringing him to the forum won't have a predictable result. I'll point out to the OP that there's at least a 50% chance he comes to MMSL, reads the material, decides to pass on marrying you in favor of MAPing to get himself to a better place before deciding to marry anyone.
Jumping to anal sex on the first weekend with douchebag is suggestive of a high sexual impulsivity. It's not clear how sexually impulsive the fiancé is, but there is a potentially concerning mismatch of libidos and/or game here. While that may be tolerable now, later that may turn out to be a significant stressor in the relationship.
It's not clear how physically attracted she is to the fiancé. Several people have asked about it over several days, and we have no response from the OP.
TL:DR You lied and lies fuck relationships up. If there's a way forward, it's going to involve having to be more honest about who you are and what you want from a relationship. Also we're all a bit worried about the baseline level of sexual chemistry here.
"The turnaround is tremendous. And I'm lifting weights, eating better, and tackling projects. I have all this great energy without a vampire sucking my life force. He's a lot stronger standing on his own two feet, as well." - Scarlet
If you're not willing to give your potential spouse your absolute best (whether that be sexual or otherwise, male or female), then don't marry them - for both your sakes.
That would be unlikely that he would think less of you - especially since you have an established relationship. It is a myth that he would think less of you for doing sexual things with him that he wants to do.
I'm not sure about this. If I was in this situation, and my wife ramped up the sexual activities, in the back of my mind I'd be thinking that she's only doing this because she feels the need to, not because she wants to.
If you're supposed to do everything you did sexually in a past relationship with a current one, then, logically, you should pass on the STDs too instead of getting meds or whatever.
Disclaimer: Health risks should always be discussed.
That would be unlikely that he would think less of you - especially since you have an established relationship. It is a myth that he would think less of you for doing sexual things with him that he wants to do.
I'm not sure about this. If I was in this situation, and my wife ramped up the sexual activities, in the back of my mind I'd be thinking that she's only doing this because she feels the need to, not because she wants to.
Sure. But If it ramps up and stays "ramped", I seriously doubt he would complain.
I was in a similar situation as your fiancé. I saw some emails on her AOL (wasn't snooping-was helping her with a school assignment) as well as an instant message from a guy who she slept with previously while I was on her computer. He was actually sending me a message thinking I was her. This was while we were engaged. No indication of anything ongoing as she had no contact with the guy on IM for a long time.
I was angry. I wasn't looking for a hookup with her (yet we slept together on the first date). I was getting everything from her, so she definitely wasn't holding back.
She cut back on things drastically which brought me here to MMSL. Things are much better than they were for sure.
I really like @SMan advice given. He seems to understand the situation the best.
Comments
I feel bad for the OP because she believed the feminist line, that's why I said her past behavior was irrelevant to fixing the problem. There is nothing that can be done about it. It's been done. Now she can only try to fix her future.
I've never been in the fiance's situation. Nonetheless, as a male, when I try to put myself in the shoes of the fiance, no matter how I look at it, I'm left suspecting he feels as though he has been played like a fiddle. Right, wrong, or indifferent, I think I would feel icy cold rage if I were in his shoes.
It is a sad situation...
“I’m going to plead with you, do not cross us. Because if you do, the survivors will write about what we do here for 10,000 years.” General James Mattis, USMC
She has done nothing wrong.
However, after coming here I realized that way back when perhaps there was a 'attraction' issue. I was immensely attracted to my husband as a whole package, but some of that 'instant physical attraction' that I had experience with 'insignificant' people wasn't always there.
So my suggestion would be to really step back and think about the 'attraction' issue. Read the primer. See if any of it applies to your SO. Honestly if you have a good base level of attraction to start with, 'good guys' can learn to turn it WAY up. Just like I was afraid of sharing my sexuality, 'good guys' are often afraid of the same thing. My husband has shown me a side of himself I never knew existed, and let's say it matches up with my 'wild side' just fine.
The OP mislead him on her level of sexual experience. It came back to bite her. She has lied to him and got caught. If sexual past wasn't important to the fiance, why would the OP have down played it to such a degree?
The rage is definitely his own. The question is should he accept and forgive someone who lied to him. That is his call.
We don't know the extent of the prior partner conversation so to call her a liar is a bit much
A little something to consider.
If you shame the woman you want to have wild and crazy sex with for having had wild and crazy sex you won't get wild and crazy sex.
She doesn't 'owe' him anything. She doesn't need to go have anal sex with him to prove anything. The idea that somehow she should put on a show for him is more distasteful to me than having a wild fling with douche bag guy.
Am I completely off base here?
“I’m going to plead with you, do not cross us. Because if you do, the survivors will write about what we do here for 10,000 years.” General James Mattis, USMC
Having once been on the receiving end of the same trick myself, I totally agree with @Persephone 's perspective and have found her clear statement of it helpful. It's not a case of bait'n switch but the man may (perhaps unconsciously) feel as if it is, so that impression, even if false, needs to be counteracted.
I don't think he should shame her for it, but if they were both interested in non-vanilla and she pretended that she wasn't, then I can understand him feeling cheated. Yes, maybe if he had more game he would have got there anyway, but would he then be on her radar as a long-term prospect?
Well... I've always used my past as a selling point. It's like a secret superpower. So I'd give him a show. Something special. Not necessarily AS because that requires more planning, but maybe a few things he particularly enjoys all in one night. Maybe those shoes he likes, a little dance, a stellar bj, and some cowgirl action? I don't know, just suggestions off the top of my head.
All I'm saying is, marriage is a contract and he needs a sign of good faith. Talk about it later (if you must ), but re-build that connection immediately.
"I am engaged to the most wonderful man I have ever met. We just get along and click on pretty well everything (almost everything...). He's not as "experienced" as I am. When the talk about our pasts came up, I told him about my significant past boyfriends and did not talk about the "insignificant ones." I guess I did this to spare his feelings. I didn't want him feel hurt or funny or awkward."
She took it upon herself to create the narrative of her sexual past and it was exposed to be a lie. He is probably wondering what else was omitted to "spare his feelings". The breach of trust needs to be repaired. I am sure on some level he feels duped. The whole rationalization that HE needs to "man up" and MMSL his way into earning the sex he wants is small potatoes in comparison to the integrity issue.
Lots of issues here.
I think it's fairly obvious that she consciously misrepresented her sexual history when he asked about it. There's a reasonable amount of room to debate why she did that, or whether or not she is defensible in doing that, yada yada yada, but ultimately she photoshopped her sexual history
I think she's going to need to apologize for misleading him and generally make a move toward greater honesty with each other about what they are seeking from the relationship and what their true needs are.
We can debate whether or not his reaction is appropriate, fair, or influenced negatively by [insert ideology], but the heart of the matter is he's in a great deal of shock. I'd guess he's experiencing about 70-80% of the level of emotionality that he'd be experiencing if she had literally been just discovered cheating on him. Except she's not actually cheating on him, so he's more paralyzed than expressive, because he's struggling internally about what to do about the situation.
At this point, it's not clear what he's going do. Even bringing him to the forum won't have a predictable result. I'll point out to the OP that there's at least a 50% chance he comes to MMSL, reads the material, decides to pass on marrying you in favor of MAPing to get himself to a better place before deciding to marry anyone.
Jumping to anal sex on the first weekend with douchebag is suggestive of a high sexual impulsivity. It's not clear how sexually impulsive the fiancé is, but there is a potentially concerning mismatch of libidos and/or game here. While that may be tolerable now, later that may turn out to be a significant stressor in the relationship.
It's not clear how physically attracted she is to the fiancé. Several people have asked about it over several days, and we have no response from the OP.
TL:DR You lied and lies fuck relationships up. If there's a way forward, it's going to involve having to be more honest about who you are and what you want from a relationship. Also we're all a bit worried about the baseline level of sexual chemistry here.
One Hour Call 12-Week Guided MAP
"The turnaround is tremendous. And I'm lifting weights, eating better, and tackling projects. I have all this great energy without a vampire sucking my life force. He's a lot stronger standing on his own two feet, as well." - Scarlet
Disclaimer: Health risks should always be discussed.
I was angry. I wasn't looking for a hookup with her (yet we slept together on the first date). I was getting everything from her, so she definitely wasn't holding back.
She cut back on things drastically which brought me here to MMSL. Things are much better than they were for sure.
I really like @SMan advice given. He seems to understand the situation the best.