You can't fake attraction...that was never there.

Mongrel

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/magnetic-partners/201311/the-role-physical-attraction-in-your-relationship

This (older) article was posted on another forum I frequent. The article itself is interesting enough but the comments were sad and heart-breaking to read.

We work/MAP to rebuild attraction that has fallen away but what do we do about a relationship where a strong physical attraction may never have existed? This seems like a very easy explanation for a AAAAF relationship. In my own circumstance if I turn the spotlight on my marriage there are indicators that I may be fighting this very issue. The handful of burning, rip-your-clothes-off sexcapades I've had in my marriage would seem to support this (the only really hot, wild sex I've had with my wife has been when she's drunk).

If there was never really a deep physical attraction from your spouse can the battle ever be won?

Athol_Kay

Speaking in general terms, I think we can get people back to the high water mark of attraction they had in the beginning of the relationship, but if there wasn't attraction then it's a deep and potentially unsolvable problem.

Let assume that "being attracted" is Reason A to get married. But they aren't attracted, and they marry anyway. That means a secondary reason to get married exists, "Reason B".

Often getting married meets Reason B, and things are stable, but also feeling flat. In time Reason B may be so meet that the marriage itself is no longer needed. Or they end up meeting someone who they are genuinely attracted to.

Now if it is possible to change in ways that would create attraction, then Reason A can be met and the marriage can strengthen and improve. But if it's just not possible to make that jump, and sometimes it's not something "wrong" with the partner, just a completely different type of person that is attractive is the issue... then yeah it's a really hard road to improve things. Or maybe the difference is just too great to overcome.

telyni

Sounds like it's also a lot more common for the women to not be attracted than the man. Do men have lower thresholds of attraction?

(Edit: Gah, the forum ate the rest of my comment. I'll have to retype it later.)

Rico

telyni said:

Sounds like it's also a lot more common for the women to not be attracted than the man. Do men have lower thresholds of attraction?

There's this oft-referenced survey from OK Cupid that agrees with your statement; while online dating isn't the best representation of the sex/marriage marketplace as a whole, their stats indicated that women on the site rated 80% of the men as average looking or worse, whereas the ratings from men tended to be more evenly distributed (standard disclaimer - looks aren't the only factor in attractiveness, yadda yadda)

HildaCorners

telyni said:

Sounds like it's also a lot more common for the women to not be attracted than the man. Do men have lower thresholds of attraction?

Depends on how you define attraction, of course.

I think, from an ev psych point of view, women are pickier than men. Men are looking for a woman who will make good babies; physically, there are a lot of women that fit this. [Not true 50,000 years ago ... but these days, most young women are healthy.] Men can easily find a woman who meets the basic requirements.

Women, evolutionarily speaking, are looking for a man who will be a loyal good provider, who will take care of them and their babies. No disrespect to the men here, but a lot of young men don't meet this standard — they're jobless, or party too hard, or are generally irresponsible. A woman has to look harder, and look at potential, to find a man who meets her basic needs in a partner. [And picking based on potential is risky ... I failed at that more often than I want to admit.]

This is somewhat related to attraction ... a rational person is attracted to someone who is a good choice, evolutionary psych speaking. Not that we always choose rationally.

Blackwulf

The problem is being attractive, a provider and protector is hard wired in too.  It had to be.  Now though we live in a much safer environment but provision is still a necessity.  The main issue though in my book is the amount of comparison that is capable in today's society. It also use to be the best provider was also probably going to be the best protector and alpha enough, now we are not selecting for the other two traits but just provision.  

markymapo

Correct, Attraction is not a choice. Mate selection is. 

An Alpha bad boy is attractive, so that's what draws a women in. She may sleep with him but if he's not husband material and is off riding his Harley and drinking 5 nights a week, she most likely won't pick him for a husband. 

As for guys in their 20's these days (prime selecting and marry age) I also believe this generation is coddled by mom/dad/govt. they want free this and free that. 


Not to go off thread but why do you think this generation loves Bernie Sanders...he offers up free stuff. Total contrast to what past political figures offered and I don't mean Obama or bush. But Regan and somewhat Clinton (Bill) urged innovation and open up your mind to think about what type of person you want to be. 


Back in my late teens early 20's I could not wait to leave my moms house. The though of freedom and being  able to bring friends and gf over any time I wanted. But I had to work to pay for rent,lights, cable. I worked my ass off and many times volunteered for overtime. 

I dont believe guys lower their standard for a women when they are dating or looking for a gf. Of course we all want to be dating perfect 10 super models but that's not reality. 

I think if a guy is an SR 8 he will settle for a 7 or maybe a 6 until he does find a women who is same SR or higher. If he does not find that then he will stick with the 6/7 SR woman. 

Blackwulf

My dad literally taught me "don't date someone unfit to be a mate." 

Mongrel

@Athol_Kay states (and I agree) that running a MAP and becoming awesome will typically result in a return to what I'll call Original Attraction. Attraction fades as we become fat, lazy, uninteresting and complacent. It is possible for us to overcome the lesser us and return to the awesome us.

What frankly scares the crap out of me is that real desire-like attraction may never have been there, at least in my circumstances. Mrs M and I are good best friends, rarely fight, do our own things and so on but I question if we ever had serious attraction for each other.

I can't speak for her but in my background I was only marginally successful at dating. I had a few weak or fixer-upper girlfriends. I never spun plates. I was geeky looking and knew it and relied on my humor and intellect to achieve what little I did with females. At 25 I was still living at home with little idea of what I wanted to do when I met her. Mrs M liked me, didn't piss me off and came from a family I enjoyed being around. The sex was okay, frustratingly infrequent ("It will be easier when we are married") but enough to keep me interested. We got married because she was the best I had managed in my ten or so years of dating and I wanted to be an adult and on my own. 

I wish I knew how she felt. In thinking back on those long-ago days I know that I loved her (and do) but was I really, hotly attracted to her...or just horny? The picture isn't clear. I find this deeply worrying.

Aklattle

Are you changing history based on your current feelings?

Mongrel

Aklattle said:

Are you changing history based on your current feelings?

It is a concern, but I don't believe so. 
I think I am seeing things I was blind to for many years and am just trying to fit the pieces of the puzzle together. This 'never attracted' theory is still just that...but it does make possible sense.

WarnPeace

@Mongrel , I'm with you, this is some depressing shit.  

If I was armed with MMSL when I first met DW we'd not have made it past dating.  I was  totally into her and fell in love quickly.  But in the fog of love and the joy of getting laid regularly,  I totally missed the signs that she either (a) wasn’t attracted to me or (b) is not cable of a deeper emotional/sexual connection because of past abuse.  No doubt I ticked the boxes of being a good provider, emotionally available and supportive, loyal, smart etc.  and provided an acceptable escape route from her own shitty circumstances of that time.

Now what? 

CallmeCat

That's just it we could all go back in time and do things different if we were armed with the wisdom and knowledge that we have now but life doesn't work that way but what we can do is keep plugging away at the life we do want. Sometimes it is not an easy road one just has to decide what they really want and do what you can to make it happen 

wishful_thinking

@Mongrel - very interesting and eye-opening link. Although I wish it wasn't the case, it kind of backs up what I was trying to get across, when I started this thread early last year:
http://marriedmansexlife.vanillacommunities.com/discussion/13034/realistically-is-this-the-best-its-going-to-be/p1
I firmly believe that to be able to get the life that you long for, with your partner, that way of life needs to have existed at some point previously in the relationship.

Mongrel

@wishful_thinking I read your thread (and found I even posted in it last year!). So where are you now, a year later? Have you moved past worrying about your looks? Applied more assertiveness in your day-to-day life? And has it made any improvement?

One thing you mentioned early on struck a chord with me. We had a week long vacation together for our honeymoon. I had sex exactly once. Vacation sex in general has been once in a week if I've been lucky even after MAPing. Overall my wife is willing to have sex with me occasionally, likes it when we have it (its not starfish but not spectacular) but unless she's more than a half bottle of wine into an evening has never exhibited any craving for sex with me during the entire time we've been together. Her increased libido when drunk also precedes our relationship (she shared a story or two about her brief, misspent youth).

The only time I've ever seen her exhibit anything approaching tingles is when Bradley Cooper wanders across a TV or movie screen.

HildaCorners

generalzod said:

I think you're muddling attraction and mate selection.

What you're describing above is a choice.  Attraction is not a choice.

ETA - and cabana boys aren't crushing a ton of women based on their loyalty or ability to provide.

Attraction is definitely a choice ... but an unconscious one. So, to an extent is mate selection. In both cases, our lizard brains put out their checklists, and see if the potential partner measures up.

Most "blue pill" thinkers aren't rational about mate selection ... they wait for "the one true love" and then try to mold that person into a better mate. Sounds like attraction to me.

As far as the pool boys go:

• My main thoughts were on young adults in the market for a life partner. Middle aged women and pool boys are a completely different dynamic.
• A huge number of modern people ignore/defy their lizard brains, and consciously or unconsciously choose people they aren't attracted to, or bad mates. This may be out of a sense of obligation ("she's 300 lbs, but has a good heart and loves babies"), past trauma ("I will never marry a man with red hair, because my abuser had red hair"), social pressure, plain old defiance ... The women going after the pool boys are often acting out of defiance.
  

MiddleMan

This was an issue I had. My experience seems to confirm the premise. 

wishful_thinking

@Mongrel - things have been going pretty good on a self-level. Although my perception of how I look is probably the same, there's no way I place as much importance on looks as I did before. I have the odd moments when I find myself being a bit critical and comparing how I look to others, but I find I'm able to overcome these actions pretty quickly. One realisation I got from that thread is that any lack of IOI's were not due to my looks, but more my lack of ability to socially interact with women. This area is this year's project and is something that I'm putting in a lot of work to try to improve.
As for sex - no improvement there. I get the odd glimmer of hope, but that is then counterbalanced by a drought. I'm now resigned to the fact that if I am to enjoy and experience a good sex life with a woman, it isn't going to be my with my wife. I think divorce is inevitable, but am holding off going down that road until my son finishes his schooling in just over three years. Such a shame as apart from a poor sex life, there is nothing really wrong with our relationship. In the meantime I'm going to continue to put in the hard work in becoming the best I can be, so when the time comes to dip my toe in the dating pool, I will hopefully find success and enjoy the process.

Hoping things turn out better for you.

markymapo

@wishful_thinking

I've read a few of your threads and kind of resonate but not with the lack of sex so much. Mine is more she sees me be more Alhpa and she's more of a leader so I got the more Alpha wife than submissive. It sucks...anyway...

Sucks your this situation, and I get your frustration. I read the part where she's just comfortable that you provide, are loyal, and give relationship comfort. But never really having that great sex life you would think she'd give. 

You also state that you pretty much put up with it because you think you're not the greatest looking guy. And don't think you will catch the eye of another women right away That is one of your problems. Having more self confidence in your looks would actually do wonders for you. Plus, women have different views of guys looks. Yeah, some or most want to marry or date a Brad Pitt but his looks are probably on in 2-4 % of population. 

I hope things change in your marriage in the sex dept. 

Just work on the only person that you can change. That's you. 
Try and put lack of sex away from your mind and just keep telling yourself your an awesome guy, it's her loss not wanting this. 

I really think if you get much more confidence in yourself others will notice. Hopefully it's your wife. 

Mongrel

wishful_thinking said:

I'm now resigned to the fact that if I am to enjoy and experience a good sex life with a woman, it isn't going to be my with my wife. Such a shame as apart from a poor sex life, there is nothing really wrong with our relationship.

I am curious; when you mention everything else is okay are you getting the non-sexual affection you desire as well?

I surmise that a lack of sexual affection also will mean a lack of flirtatious, loving behavior overall. Mrs M will occasionally want a kiss or grab my hand when we walk (yes, I do usually take the lead in this department) but other physical intimacy signals just don't get broadcast from her.

wishful_thinking

@Mongrel - Yes,  we get along fine,  rarely argue and enjoy spending time and doing things together. As I mentioned in the other thread,  there are a few people we know who view ours as the ideal marriage,  obviously without knowing about the lack of sex.