You can't fake attraction...that was never there.

Eightbit

wishful_thinking said:

@Mongrel - very interesting and eye-opening link. Although I wish it wasn't the case, it kind of backs up what I was trying to get across, when I started this thread early last year:
http://marriedmansexlife.vanillacommunities.com/discussion/13034/realistically-is-this-the-best-its-going-to-be/p1
I firmly believe that to be able to get the life that you long for, with your partner, that way of life needs to have existed at some point previously in the relationship.

There are several examples to the contrary on this message board alone, pirouette and I being one.

Pen_and_Sword

Eightbit said:

wishful_thinking said:

@Mongrel - very interesting and eye-opening link. Although I wish it wasn't the case, it kind of backs up what I was trying to get across, when I started this thread early last year:
http://marriedmansexlife.vanillacommunities.com/discussion/13034/realistically-is-this-the-best-its-going-to-be/p1
I firmly believe that to be able to get the life that you long for, with your partner, that way of life needs to have existed at some point previously in the relationship.

There are several examples to the contrary on this message board alone, pirouette and I being one.

I'm relieved to hear that, for the sake of one of my best friends. Both work hard at their marriage, but she lacked either attraction (I fear) or relationship comfort in the worst way, from the very beginning.

wishful_thinking

@Eightbit - I probably shouldn't have  made it sound like it's not possible at all to turn things round from hardly any sex at the beginning to a good sex life,  but the vast majority of cases on here are from partners whose sex life started off awesome in quality and quantity,  but dwindled to the level that has brought them here.  This to me shows that the physical attraction was there to start with. 
I've read your triage and get no indication of a lack of physical  attraction, rather a lack of communication.
However,  since reading the linked article,  it gives a plausible explanation as to why no improvement is seen,  despite all the self - improvement that is made,  and could go some way in explaining the lack of success that myself,  Mongrel and possibly others here have seen. 

Katt

As mentioned ^^^ , there are people who have managed to create "new" attraction in their marriage after improving themselves, so it is certainly possible in some cases (not saying always).

Regardless, IMO it seems potentially problematic to spend much time or energy dwelling on the "what if there's just no hope for us" scenario.    It has the potential to take the focus off of your MAP and to create negative energy.   Until you have reached the point that you've maximized your own attractiveness enough that you know you could start and sustain a healthy relationship with the kind of partner you want to attract, the focus really needs to be on getting to that point since the stay plan and go plan are the same.   Give your spouse a legit chance to respond to the optimized version of you before preemptively counting your marriage defeated.   

Winter

We have far exceeded any initial attraction and our sex life is 10x more active than it was when we were dating.  So, it can happen if both people are invested in their MAP. 

wishful_thinking

I know the MAP is an ongoing process,  and has no end or time frame,  but what is considered a legit chance? I've still got areas that need work on, but the strides I've personally made in the last few years have been huge.  Is it therefore unreasonable to suggest that I should see some improvement, if only to give me a bit of hope for the future? At the moment I'm improving for myself (as it should be),  but because I preparing myself for a potential life after marriage, and also because I get the feeling that no matter what level of awesomeness I get to,  it will never be enough.  Hence why it boils down to a lack of physical attraction from the beginning. 
I've only had two sexual partners,  including my wife. Both were virgins and I was the same beta wuss in each relationship, yet in the 1st one I had pussy on a plate. Again,  shows how physical attraction can differ,  despite me being the same person,  and without any of the confidence or assertiveness I've since added.  The examples in the linked article shows how physical attraction can vary.  I think at the end of the day, I made a poor choice of mate. 

Mongrel

Katt said:

   Give your spouse a legit chance to respond to the optimized version of you before preemptively counting your marriage defeated.   

I agree with Katt but I also understand where @wishful_thinking is coming from. How do you know when to throw in the towel, especially at my age (over 50) where every year is so clearly valuable?

Then stir in my decreasing attraction for her (frumpzilla and weight gain) and the outlook is even more dismal.

Making a poor mate selection and/or 'settling' (in my case, based upon the SR I thought I would ever be capable of achieving) is past history. We have to live with the 'now'.

Mongrel

Winter said:

We have far exceeded any initial attraction and our sex life is 10x more active than it was when we were dating.  So, it can happen if both people are invested in their MAP. 

Bolded wording is the key. If the other person never gets on board the MAP train...? Or maybe they never liked trains and are content sitting on a bench in the station watching reruns of Law & Order.

As Katt points out, none of this absolves the MAPer from running the train.

Howard

@Mongrel so....2-3 years since you joined MMSL, is that right? 21 years married = plenty of time to let things slide or go bad. I know the story, married 28 years myself and MAPping just one. Sometimes I fail to see progress and just want everything fixed ASAP. So to me this thread is possibly expressing disappointment at the rate iof change and a fear that changing a marriage has limits. That may be true, but have you found the limits yet?

You have indeed made progress, as far as a quick scan of your threads tells me. And you wife is capable of being awesome too, your description of her past weight loss makes that clear. You just have to get in sync with each other, and that can take quite some time, years even.

In the meantime, find some passion for yourself. Maybe do something a litle scary, whatever that might be for you: public speaking, skydiving, whetever gives you that feeling of testing your own boundaries. The energy you find will feed back into your life & your mariage.

HowlAtTheMoon

The thing about real mapping, is the longer you go at it, the more internal reds you discover. The real mental and emotional reds. At the point your map is actually really getting to the nitty gritty, is when it almost feels like you are going backwards. The big turning points are really uncomfortable.  It is easy to spin your wheels in negativity and fatalistic thinking right when you need to push forward most.

I've been "mapping" for basically seven years.  However, it isn't until this last year that I've started making real headway in my marriage.  It took that long to get to the core of my problems because it was so painful.  (And I would say this headway happened at my most physically UNattractive due to pregnancy). And by headway, I mean progress on my inner self, not happiness in marriage.

My point is, most people who think they have exhausted their mapping process, are probably only 20% through. Especially if they are feeling a bit hopeless. 

HildaCorners

wishful_thinking said:

I know the MAP is an ongoing process,  and has no end or time frame,  but what is considered a legit chance?

I think Katt put it well:

you have reached the point that you've maximized your own attractiveness enough that you know you could start and sustain a healthy relationship with the kind of partner you want to attract

If you know what your ideal mate would be like, you probably have an idea of whether you're attractive to that person. If not, you have some MAP work to do. Focus on the basics, then once you've got those covered, work on things your ideal partner will find attractive.

Then, look seriously at your current spouse. Do they have potential for getting closer to your ideal? Can they ever get close enough to make you content?

In Mongrel's case, with two working, childless older adults, the only reason to stay together is because you are happier with your partner than alone. If he isn't happier with her, and sees no path to that happiness, I am not sure why he wants to stay married.

If there are kids, the issue is more complicated. You might want to continue an AAAAAF marriage to have the kids grow up in a happy, well adjusted family ... but if it's more of a CDBCCF, divorce and remarriage into an ABAABA marriage might be better, even for the kids.

never_again

Be advised that the situation I'm going to describe was pre-MMSL.  I discovered MMSL and MAPping long after I left my ex.

When my ex pulled her 180 nine months into the marriage, I was completely thrown.  My world was upside-down.  I didn't know what to do, who to turn to, where to go.  There was no ILYBINILWY, she just became a completely different person, like she'd been kidnapped by aliens and replaced by a frigid, narcissistic shrew clone.  

Over the next 3.5 years I did everything I knew (at the time) to get the woman I married back.  Personal counsellors, marital counsellors, multiple times and things just kept deteriorating.  

But I still had hope that some day I'd find that woman again.  I liken it to the movie Groundhog Day.  Every morning I'd wake up with the genuine hope that this was going to be the day.  And every night I would go to sleep completely exhausted and demoralized, but still with that hope, that lifeline.

One night, the hope died.  It. Just. Died.  Nothing different happened that night - at least nothing different from what had been happening for 3.5 years already.  But I knew in that instant that I could not stay with this woman.  The next morning I packed some things, left and never went back.  Make no mistake, it was the hardest thing I ever did in my life, but I knew that it was the right - the only thing to do.

The fact that you are wavering says you aren't ready to give up.  When the moment happens, you will know it.  You just will.

Mongrel

HildaCorners said:

In Mongrel's case, with two working, childless older adults, the only reason to stay together is because you are happier with your partner than alone. If he isn't happier with her, and sees no path to that happiness, I am not sure why he wants to stay married.

I have much respect for you HildaCorners.

I've pondered that question many times. For myself it is a convoluted and layered conundrum. Answers? Fear and not wanting to hurt someone. Fear of the unknown and fear of being alone. Guilt that a AAAAF wife doesn't deserve to be nuked because of the F. Dissatisfaction with who I am right now. Anger...lots of anger over the Disney lie I've been sold since I was a kid and feeling stupid I didn't see it before TRP. Disappointment with myself and some of the life choices I've made (other than marriage/relationships). Disappointment and some resentment that my BP father set a poor example for me.

I'm not yet a good enough person to make a decision.

HildaCorners

Mongrel, I understand. It took me several years to realize I had to leave my last husband, and that situation was much different (worse) than yours. As @Husband3point0 would say, we have a lot of "sunk costs" in our marriages, and don't want to abandon them after all our effort to improve things.

If you're not ready to decide, you're not ready to decide. Accept that, and don't let the opinions of us anonymous internet strangers force your hand.

What you can do is move yourself in the direction that will get you "good enough" to make that decision. What will be different about you when you are ready to decide? What steps can you make now that will get you to that place?

wishful_thinking

@Howard - I know your comment was directed at Mongrel, but for me this thread is about gaining clarity about why I'm not seeing any improvement, and has given me a bit of a lightbulb moment. As for limits in what can be changed, these were found a while ago.

@HildaCorners - I still have work to do, namely social confidence issues. As I previously stated, DS is three years away from finishing his schooling, and I have no intention in pulling the plug on my marriage before then. This gives me time to work on the social confidence, continue to improve for myself and maybe, against the odds, see evidence that my wife is joining the party. That aside I, like Mongrel, am at an age (46) where each year of no improvement in my marriage is of concern, especially as each year seems to pass quicker than the last. By setting this three year time frame, I feel this gives ample time to determine whether the marriage is worth continuing or ending.

Does my wife have the potential to meet my standard? To be honest the bar to reach this standard isn't set ridiculously high, it's whether she will ever feel the need or desire to reach it. Again, this comes back to whether there was any attraction in the first place.

On a side note, I can't believe that I'm contemplating divorce from my wife, who I love and want to spend my life with, but also want to have a good, frequent sex life with. Is it really so bad? This whole thing is fucking ludicrous! 

Angeline

Have you laid it on the line to your wife in those no-nonsense, no wobbling terms? What do you think would happen if you did? "We've got 3 years before son goes off to college to right this ship. Here is my plan."

Keep hammering away in the 3 years you have that anything less than full effort leaves you with a big decision. The point of MAPping is to get to a place to lead positive change, even if you have to use a bludgeon to do it. You've walked right up to the edge of that and stopped.

Maybe the social skills is the last piece of the puzzle to tip her over into being attracted. Maybe she's a Lazy Bear coasting her way into retirement. No way to know unless you push it.

wishful_thinking said:

Howard - I know your comment was directed at Mongrel, but for me this thread is about gaining clarity about why I'm not seeing any improvement, and has given me a bit of a lightbulb moment. As for limits in what can be changed, these were found a while ago.

HildaCorners - I still have work to do, namely social confidence issues. As I previously stated, DS is three years away from finishing his schooling, and I have no intention in pulling the plug on my marriage before then. This gives me time to work on the social confidence, continue to improve for myself and maybe, against the odds, see evidence that my wife is joining the party. That aside I, like Mongrel, am at an age (46) where each year of no improvement in my marriage is of concern, especially as each year seems to pass quicker than the last. By setting this three year time frame, I feel this gives ample time to determine whether the marriage is worth continuing or ending.

Does my wife have the potential to meet my standard? To be honest the bar to reach this standard isn't set ridiculously high, it's whether she will ever feel the need or desire to reach it. Again, this comes back to whether there was any attraction in the first place.

On a side note, I can't believe that I'm contemplating divorce from my wife, who I love and want to spend my life with, but also want to have a good, frequent sex life with. Is it really so bad? This whole thing is fucking ludicrous! 

markymapo

@wishful_thinking

Back to the original article, he states:

"I have to admit that I err on the side of the naysayers. In nearly 35 years of practicing couple’s therapy I’ve never seen a partner “get it” when they “never had it” to begin with. I’ve seen a few who “had some” and “grew more,” but even those that were attracted to non-physical aspects of their partners (such as intellect) couldn’t seem to harvest a physical attraction. In this sense, you either have it from the beginning or…"

I think that's the smoking gun with your case. Has she ever had it from beggining. You question that yourself. 

You can fix the confidence thing and I think that's great for YOU. That will be another notch of a yellow/red in MAP. 

I say do your 3 year plan, become the best you can be. At least your trying before just jumping ship. 

Thing is, it takes two to tango. There's no marriage or saving marriage when only one spouse is pulling the cart. 

Jek

@Mongrel , divorced life is horrible bro.  

I just bought a pos 1972 Ford truck and have been tinkering on it for the last couple weeks, that is why I am scarce here.  I also have been working 80+ hours. Whether I work late, or work late on my truck, it sucks that I dont have someone telling me that I am an asshole.  I take a shower after 11:30, and idgaf if I leave an oil ring, I will clean it this weekend.  I have a sock that landed on the ceiling fan, it has been there a month.  Im going to leave it, who fkn cares.

I have space in my closet, my shoes dont touch each other.  I call back or not.  I can spend 2 hours at the junkyard, Home Depot, a swap meet, car show, without feeling like I should be somewhere else.

I am rebuilding my carb, and doing my head gaskets, intake manifold gaskets, rear main seal, oil pan, and fixing other things over this long weekend, and no one gaf and neither do I.

sucks to be me

amblrgirl

I've been trying to stay away from this thread because I don't think it'll do me any good. But since I'm here, I'll share my thoughts.

I was not physically attracted to my husband, even when we first started dating. He was short, skinny with a concave chest, didn't dress great, had a baby face, stained teeth, puffy hair on his head, and no body or facial hair. I almost didn't date him because of the physical.

We were so mismatched in physical SR, that strangers (guys) on the street would stop us to inquire about our relationship. "You? Are with him?!? Wow man, you better treat her right." There was a big SR gap.

But I liked other things about him, and I found one physical thing I liked - his blue eyes.

In his 30s, my husband became physically attractive. He filled out some, has perfect facial hair, nice facial features, still has a full head of thick, dark hair but gets regular cuts so it's never puffy anymore. He works out some and is getting arm, shoulder, and back muscles. He dresses much better. He's still short, but he's a good-looking guy now. Better looking than he ever was before. And I find him more physically attractive.

Now, would I probably have more physical attraction toward someone I was always very physically attracted to? Sure. Unless of course they aged by getting fat and sloppy (a lot of guys we went to high school with have). But none of that really matters because I'm married to my husband.

My husband used to think I had a low libido and no interest in sex (certainly not kinky sex) with him. He knows better than that now.

We now have more (and better) sex than we've had our entire marriage.  I did not want to have sex with my husband on our wedding night, now I want to have sex with him regularly. For the first 15 years of our relationship, any sex we did have was very vanilla. We're pretty kinky these days. 

So, is it an uphill battle to have a passionate marriage with someone if there was not originally physical attraction? Sure. 

Is it impossible? Doesn't seem to be from what I've experienced.

Physical attraction can be improved by getting more physically attractive and having your wife notice the change. It probably took a couple of years after my H became more attractive for me to notice that he didn't still look like that skinny kid from high school.

Lastly: Good afternoon, @Jek. You're an asshole.

(I think that covers everything?)

Jek

@amblrgirl

you lil flirt...