Separate workout days for different muscle groups

Zot

Is there really any benefit to focusing on one muscle group per workout? I've been going to the gym for two years now and have included a little bit of everything into every workout. I've certainly seen a difference, but I've also plateaued. 

My reasoning behind working all muscle groups is that it seems pointless to go to the gym to work only on arms for 15 minutes when I can get a leg workout in as well. 

Does working all muscle groups compromise my ability to build muscle?

Rorschach

Yes.

NeverSleptOnTheCouch

Arms is not a muscle group.

fredless

crossfit

Aklattle

For one thing, it's more stressful on the body I would guess. Probably hinders recovery.

Rorschach

@zot, doing it the whole body way will work for a while, if you are starting from zero. But, because our bodies are adaptation machines, after a while it will slowly stop working and the results you saw at first will diminish.

To make your muscles grow (aka hypertrophy aka bodybuilding), you need to put enough stress on the muscle and then leave it alone to repair, and feed it with protein.

To put enough stress on the muscle to force it to adapt (grow larger to handle the stress) you need a certain amount of intensity (weight) at a certain time under tension (number of reps and tempo, or speed) to technical failure (can't do another rep over a full range of motion with correct form). General beginners advice is about 70-75 percent of 1RM for 8-10 reps, to technical failure. 2020 is a good general to start with all purpose tempo. The first # is the negative, the second is the bottom, the third is the contraction, the fourth is the top, all expressed in seconds. Yes, it matters if you're not using drugs.

You can't get enough volume (amount of work performed) in a whole body workout to force adaptation.

So, folks figured out a while ago that you need to do what is called a split. One group per session per week. A four day split is common, and is optimal, unless you don't have to work for a living. Different muscle groups on different days. That provides enough stimulus to force an adaptation, and lets the muscle rest in order to adapt.

Most workouts should be 40 mins to an hour, though I find it's pretty difficult to get legs/calves done in under 1 hour and 15-20 mins.

If you're doing arms in 15 mins, you're doing it wrong. Not enough volume.

By way of example, my last arm workout looked like this, and it took just about 40-45 mins (it will change in 3 weeks):

Antagonistic superset:
EZ bar preacher curls with fat gripz
4 x 6-8 temp 40X0
rest 10 secs
close grip BB bench press with chains
4 x 6-8 3110
rest 1.5 mins
The idea being you do the curls, rest 10 secs, then the CG presses, the rest 1.5 mins, then keep going until four of each.

Another antagonistic superset:
DB hammer curls with fat gripz
4 x 8-10 2020
rest 10 secs
Decline EZ bar tricep extensions
4 x 8-10 2020
rest 1.5 mins

Done.

See the difference in the amount of work applied to the muscle?

I am happy to answer any further questions.

Tennee

Volume, volume, volume.  15 minutes on biceps and/or triceps is nowhere close to the volume you need for a true hypertrophy workout.

Zot

@Rorschach Thanks for the info. I've been using machines exclusively as I don't know proper form for using free weights. I've also don't some chest dips and pull ups. 

I understand most of the terminology but could you clarify what 2020 means?

Tennee

The cadence for the concentric and eccentric portions of the lift.  Two seconds for each. One thousand one, one thousand two.  

Reborn

So the general recommendation is once a week for each group?

Rorschach

@Reborn yes, in general.

By way of example, I am currently doing this: back/traps/abs, arms, rest, chest/shoulders, quads/hams/calves, rest, rest.

zook

If your only using machines I would strongly suggest getting a coach and going to strong lifts 5x5 or wendler 5/3/1 for 3 - 6 months before running a split.

If a coach is un affordable browse strong lifts forums, lift light (harder said than done) and video yourself for technique criticism.

Once strength gains stall in either of those programs THEN research splits.

Rushing ahead from that and not being balanced, gains will stall again because you won't have the base strength and you will get niggly injuries when pushing harder.

Tennee

Fear Not The Free-weights.  Really, don't be intimidated man, we meat-heads are actually nice, helpful folks once you cross the threshold into the realm of steel and iron.  And you'll never go back. 

So, regardless of what program you pick, remember that the form is the same regardless.  So SLs or Wendler, etc. will have you doing many of the same big, compound movements - Barbell bench, Back Squat, Deadlifts, etc. - that a split does.  I know @SignorePillolaRossa has been running SL 5X5 (I think) and he has made some sweet gains, so he can 'splain that. 

As to form, there are a zillion YouTube vids on form for all lifts.  Really, a zillion.  When you pick something, learn the movements for that routine, and watch vids.  If you can't use your phone to video yourself, ask another lifter to watch you and comment.  Really, they'll do it. 

And slow and steady man.  Light weights.  I'll paraphrase @Rorschach - feed your muscles, not your ego.   I watch so many people completely screwing things up.  There's a dude who is squating 3 plates at my gym.  Except he's not, because its maybe a 1/3 rep, he can't even manage a half rep.  I guarantee he can't actually squat what I can, because my ass hits the grass. 

Protein.  Sleep.  Proper rest.  Volume, volume, volume.  Time under tension (the 2020 cadence).  Form, form, form. 

Quick story:  after I had crossed the threshold into Meathead Land for about 8 months, a huge guy - HUGE - asked me to spot him.  I actually looked behind me to see who he was talking to.  Nope, it was moi.  Well over 3 plates.  HEAVY.  I thought, dude, if you drop this, I can probably give the coroner an excellent, birds-eye view report.  But I helped him.  And he asked me, not others.  Dude talks to me all the time now.  

Cross the threshold....Zot, come to the Meathead Side....

SignorePillolaRossa

X2 for everything Tennee said ... i was probably the least 'meathead' guy you could think of ... except i am a total meathead now ... well, at least in as much as i am completely sold on how important it is for mind body and soul for me to work out with heavy weights and feed my machine accordingly ... no matter what kind of low motivation day i am having, the focus and achievement of going to the gym really changes my outlook ... and its less than an hour for me, so not a time suck, all-consuming addiction ... just a nice steady 'fix'

yeah, i am doing stronglifts 5x5 pretty much by the book ... my gains have slowed down (except my OH and Bench are still progressing nicely), but its still a great workout ... i get a kick outta being able to outlift some of the young guys, especially ones who come in with their GFs who i catch watching me sometime ... and yeah, getting asked to spot a big dude is a huge ego stroke - i was new to lifting 6 months ago and now a couple of young guys ask me for help/advice ... 

just important to note that i am not yet looking to get HUGE .. still trying to lose flab and build solid strength/fitness/healthfullness ... so all-over compound lifts are still my friend for now

at some point, i will want a somewhat bigger chest and arms, and will add focus to them

Reborn

Tennee said:

Quick story:  after I had crossed the threshold into Meathead Land for about 8 months, a huge guy - HUGE - asked me to spot him.  I actually looked behind me to see who he was talking to.  Nope, it was moi.  Well over 3 plates.  HEAVY.  I thought, dude, if you drop this, I can probably give the coroner an excellent, birds-eye view report.  But I helped him.  And he asked me, not others.  Dude talks to me all the time now.  

I had that experience once.  I was on a project in a really "bad" area of town, I took to working out at a gym where all the local doormen went to bulk up. No women there. This huge guy asked me to spot him squat. Quite scary. But he asked me.  I guess I was doing squats and DLs, not just upper body. 

Reborn

Upper body I have always done two or three times a week. Perhaps I will try once a week with twice the volume -- if I can! 

My current usual is like 4 sets of chest press, 4 sets db overhead press, 4 sets rows and 4 sets lat pulldown. And maybe some pec deck. Two or three times a week. And that takes me 40 mins or so. 

Tennee

So, here was today's split, its Chest/Biceps today

Chest:

Warmup - 10 mins on elliptical at moderate pace (12 out of 20 max setting) & bar only bench, 1x10

Barbell Flat Bench:  5x5-6 Reps, heavy weight, 3 minutes rest between sets
Barbell Incline Bench:  3x8, moderate to heavy weight, 90 seconds rest
DB Flyes:  4x12, light to moderate weight, 45 seconds rest

Biceps:

Barbell Curl:  5X5-6 reps, heavy weight, 3 mins rest
Alternating DB Curls:  3x6-8. moderate to heavy, 90 seconds rest
Preacher Curls with EZ BB:  3x15, light weight, to exhaustion, 45 seconds rest between sets.

So, "Heavy" is defined as what you can do for 5 reps in a set, to a technical failure, "Moderate" is 8-12, "Light" is 10-15.  

So, a total of 107 chest reps and 94 for biceps.   All at 2020. 

ETA:  little over an hour-ish for this one. 

Ninkasi

@Zot Hopefully my question below won't be too far off the OP topic. Thanks for starting the thread; I've been wondering something similar. 

@Tennee @Rorschach

I've done a year or so of Starting Strength, one two month cycle of Russian Bear, and am thinking about using Wendler 5/3/1. I'd like to gain size, especially upper body, but also enjoy the strength aspect of power lifting. Assuming similar diet and sleep, is there a way to know how much better a four day split program would build size? For instance, if I can do a comparatively streamlined power lifting program like 5/3/1, build strength quickly, and size at 90% the speed of a purely hypertrophy program, but in 20 less minutes per workout, then I'd stay with Wendler. If the trade-offs were less favorable, I might consider taking longer to get my strength while getting my size faster.

For reference, I'm 165lb, squat 205x5, DL 295x5, and OHP 105x5.

Tennee

I page @maverick for this discussion too.

@Ninkasi "Which will work better" is beyond my pay grade, and also likely has many individual caveats.  I spoke more in depth of what I'm doing and my split over here on the Workout thread. 

All I can tell you is, my gains in terms of #s (I track every day's lift) changed noticeably since I started the 4-day split I cite in the other post (6 months on this now).  I also started taking creatine hydrochloride, eating a lot of protein, and getting proper rest.  I was running a split previously, but no where near the volume of the above.

I really think the added volume was the key, and the other changes maximized it, if that makes sense.   

Rorschach

Ninkasi said:

@Zot Hopefully my question below won't be too far off the OP topic. Thanks for starting the thread; I've been wondering something similar. 

@Tennee @Rorschach

I've done a year or so of Starting Strength, one two month cycle of Russian Bear, and am thinking about using Wendler 5/3/1. I'd like to gain size, especially upper body, but also enjoy the strength aspect of power lifting. Assuming similar diet and sleep, is there a way to know how much better a four day split program would build size? For instance, if I can do a comparatively streamlined power lifting program like 5/3/1, build strength quickly, and size at 90% the speed of a purely hypertrophy program, but in 20 less minutes per workout, then I'd stay with Wendler. If the trade-offs were less favorable, I might consider taking longer to get my strength while getting my size faster.

For reference, I'm 165lb, squat 205x5, DL 295x5, and OHP 105x5.

Well, you can't really by-pass the volume if you want hypertrophy, which is why a split is the tried-and-true method: you need the volume and then the recovery, and you can only train for so long at any one session. Hence, only 1 or 2 muscle groups per training session.

Unless you are genetically very exceptional, 20 mins isn't going to give you the volume (and probably not the strength gains either). There is no magic hypertrophy bullet. 

However, with a very well thought out system of periodization, alternating between intensity (heavy, low reps, strength focussed power lifting style training) and accumulation (higher reps, volume, bodybuilding style training), say for 4-6 weeks at a time, you could try to chase both objectives. But you can't really do that with an out-of-the-box system. Again, there is no one magic system that will do it all.

Another option would be Power/Rep Range/Shock. The power week is all 4-6 reps and definitely pushes up the strength. The other 2 weeks are higher reps.

My 2 cents.

Zot

Just finished day one of a four-day split. Worked only on biceps and triceps for 45 minutes. 

Here's what I did:
Clif bar beforehand

.5 mi on the treadmill at 5.7 mph

Biceps curls (machine): 12/50 lbs 2020 3x

Tricep ext (machine): 12/80 2020 3x

Bicep curls (dumbells): 10/15/15 2020 3x

Tricep ext(machine) 12/80 2020 3x

Bicep curls (machine): 12/50 2020 8/50/50

Chest dip: 5

Bicep curls (machine): 8/50 1x
Protein shake after

I ventured into the land of meatheads for the first time today to do some bicep curls. I lined up next to a hottie who was moaning through her lifts. Kinda hot. I think I'll return. 

My arms were pretty wobbly afterward  I haven't felt this after a workout to this extent.