Dragon's triage

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  • Dragon72Dragon72 Mexico CityMember Posts: 77
    This site and the whole AK philosophy is about how we should not consider ourselves victims and strive to change ourselves.  And I concede I have much room for improvement as a man.  

    But sometimes I think, hey, I'm really not a bad person and if she's giving me signals that my presence is unbearable, then maybe I'm wasting my time, maybe SHE's the one that needs to do the improvement and I should cut my losses and get out.  But that feels like quitting and I'm loathe to quit.

    It's hard to have the long view here and see the MAP process as a long term campaign.  Especially in that every time I have tried to counter her dominance and assert MY point of view, it has resulted in a deterioration in what has never been a particularly relaxed, communicative and stable relationship.  

    I guess I don't know whether to say to myself "Hang in there, she'll eventually love the macho you", or "Screw this, she's a miserable, domineering old hag who will never appreciate how good you are".
  • JellyBeanJellyBean Sunny SoCalGold Women Posts: 5,054
    You're so right. It's difficult to take the long view when the immediate picture stirs up so much discomfort. 

    One way to develop more patience and balance is to cultivate a habit of Observing Ego. This means you allow yourself to be a nonjudgmental spectator of your life. 

    http://decodethematrix.blogspot.com/2008/06/observing-ego.html?m=1
    Enneagram type 9w1
    frillyfunDragon72
  • RedPillNeophyteRedPillNeophyte Silver Member Posts: 185
    edited August 27
    Dragon72 said:

    I guess I don't know whether to say to myself "Hang in there, she'll eventually love the macho you", or "Screw this, she's a miserable, domineering old hag who will never appreciate how good you are".

    Remember one thing as you go through this, the go plan is the same as the stay plan.

    You can't change her, the only person you can change is you.

    If you did give up right now, leave, and eventually find someone new, what's to stop the same issues from popping up again?

    You need to fix you.  If she comes along for the ride, awesome!  If not, then you will be a stronger person with better boundaries when the next Mrs. Dragon72 comes along.


    MjolnirAngelineBlackwulfIrishGypsy
  • Dragon72Dragon72 Mexico CityMember Posts: 77
    It's been a while.  

    I kind of slinked off with my tail between my legs after the last post which hit hard.  And deservedly so.  

    I know I have to fix me.  I'm working on assertiveness.  I'm working on being less needy. I'm working on being less of a servant at home.  It certainly helps that I'm no longer at home all the time on my long teacher's vacation and that I'm now back at work.  But I really don't think I am that defective as a man.  I am in great shape. I now have control of my money again. I just got the family (mostly for her) a brand new car.  I'm getting the "man jobs" done around the house.  I'm being a great dad to our son.  There are areas where I need work, such as DHV, being flirty with my wife, but I really don't get inspired to be like that when she's rarely in a good mood and seemingly prefers to clean windows, iron her clothes or go to bed early with a toddler than spend it with the person she married.  It's hard to be flirty with someone who never seems like they want to be in the same room as you.

    My wife has been about as cold as anybody can be with someone they live with, in spite of my conscious efforts to be upbeat and positive around the house.  Any time we talk it's pleasantries or about what needs to be done.  There's no intimate communication at all, verbal or physical.  Not even pecks on the cheek.  She's still going to bed with the 3 year old every night at 7pm.  

    She has had a few of her own "BSC" moments.  For example, she sent me a message at work asking what time I would be home.  I sent a message back saying that I would be back at 5.30pm (pretty much the same time as normal).  I got back home at 5.25 and when I greeted her she completely ignored me and refused to acknowledge my presence whenever I tried to talk to her.  Eventually I said, "What's wrong?" and she replied, "You didn't answer my message." and gave me a look that would kill anyone with a weak heart.  So I showed her the message I sent her with its time stamp of when I sent it.  She continued to give me the hostile treatment for the rest of the day.  

    Today is our 2nd wedding anniversary of our church wedding. (We had our civil ceremony nearly 4 years ago).  She shocked me last night by giving me a present - something she obviously picked out as something I would like.  Actually, she didn't hand it to me. She gave it to our son to hand over to me.
    Normally when she gets me presents for B'day or Xmas, she tells me to go and pick something out for myself and then she comes with me to the cash register while I pay for it with my money.  But this time she bought me something related to one of things I'm passionate about (running) and she paid for it. I went to give her a kiss to say thank and my lips got met with half-tightly sealed mouth/half-cheek.

    She's been so cold towards me recently that I hadn't thought to get her anything at all.  I had been thinking "Why should I reward someone who has not been much of a wife for me?"  Her coldness has made me want to be cold towards her.  Now, after yesterday's gift, I'm confused with the mixed messages she has sent me, and I'm feeling the pressure to reciprocate.  

    However, with every day that she is acting as if she doesn't want to know me (due to the fact that, according to the MMSL community, I'm not being enough of a "man"), I want her to be my woman less and less.
    Mjolnir
  • MjolnirMjolnir USASilver Member Posts: 150
    @Dragon72
    Dragon72 said:
    I kind of slinked off with my tail between my legs after the last post which hit hard.  And deservedly so. 
    We have all been there.  The important thing to remember is no one is trying to be a dick here.  Sometimes the language has to come across like a slap in the face because the ego is the hardest thing to kill.  It any case, welcome back.
    Dragon72 said:
    I know I have to fix me.  I'm working on assertiveness.  I'm working on being less needy. I'm working on being less of a servant at home.  It certainly helps that I'm no longer at home all the time on my long teacher's vacation and that I'm now back at work.  But I really don't think I am that defective as a man.  I am in great shape. I now have control of my money again. I just got the family (mostly for her) a brand new car.  I'm getting the "man jobs" done around the house.  I'm being a great dad to our son.  There are areas where I need work, such as DHV, being flirty with my wife, but I really don't get inspired to be like that when she's rarely in a good mood and seemingly prefers to clean windows, iron her clothes or go to bed early with a toddler than spend it with the person she married.  It's hard to be flirty with someone who never seems like they want to be in the same room as you.
    Consider yourself somewhat lucky.  All of your structural issues that you call out are relatively easy fixes, as compared to:  kicking an addiction, getting out from a mess of finances, etc.  Yes, they still require time and effort (I am not trivializing them), but the big one for you, assertiveness, is something that can easily snowball.  For example, if you start with asserting yourself on something you are passionate about (running, car, man jobs, whatever), this has a tendency to spill over into other areas of your life.  This naturally boosts your confidence, and you find it easier to project more assertiveness because you feel it.
    Dragon72 said:
    My wife has been about as cold as anybody can be with someone they live with, in spite of my conscious efforts to be upbeat and positive around the house.  Any time we talk it's pleasantries or about what needs to be done.  There's no intimate communication at all, verbal or physical.  Not even pecks on the cheek.  She's still going to bed with the 3 year old every night at 7pm. 
    I think most of us here understand this dynamic all too well.  Thankfully, it gets better.  Of course, it requires patience on your end.
    Dragon72 said:
    She has had a few of her own "BSC" moments.  For example, she sent me a message at work asking what time I would be home.  I sent a message back saying that I would be back at 5.30pm (pretty much the same time as normal).  I got back home at 5.25 and when I greeted her she completely ignored me and refused to acknowledge my presence whenever I tried to talk to her.  Eventually I said, "What's wrong?" and she replied, "You didn't answer my message." and gave me a look that would kill anyone with a weak heart.  So I showed her the message I sent her with its time stamp of when I sent it.  She continued to give me the hostile treatment for the rest of the day. 
    Ouch.  Been there, done that.  I find that it is best to not entertain her perceived problems unless she specifically brings them up.  You asking, "What's wrong," after the cold and silent treatment basically confirms/entertains her thoughts/emotions and sets you down a spiraling path.  Counter-intuitive?  You bet, seeing as you want to "fix" the problem.
    Dragon72 said:
    Today is our 2nd wedding anniversary of our church wedding. (We had our civil ceremony nearly 4 years ago).  She shocked me last night by giving me a present - something she obviously picked out as something I would like.  Actually, she didn't hand it to me. She gave it to our son to hand over to me.
    Normally when she gets me presents for B'day or Xmas, she tells me to go and pick something out for myself and then she comes with me to the cash register while I pay for it with my money.  But this time she bought me something related to one of things I'm passionate about (running) and she paid for it. I went to give her a kiss to say thank and my lips got met with half-tightly sealed mouth/half-cheek.

    She's been so cold towards me recently that I hadn't thought to get her anything at all.  I had been thinking "Why should I reward someone who has not been much of a wife for me?"  Her coldness has made me want to be cold towards her.  Now, after yesterday's gift, I'm confused with the mixed messages she has sent me, and I'm feeling the pressure to reciprocate. 
    Basing your decisions on her actions whether warranted or not, is living directly in her frame.  She is influencing your emotions, your thoughts, and your actions.  Start breaking free from that.  Get her a gift, not out of reciprocity, but because you find positive qualities in her... or that you are thankful for the kid... or whatever you can think of.  But it needs to come from you.  It there is any feeling of obligation, she will sense it.  Overall, I would say her actions here are a very positive sign that change is in the wind.
    Dragon72 said:
    However, with every day that she is acting as if she doesn't want to know me (due to the fact that, according to the MMSL community, I'm not being enough of a "man"), I want her to be my woman less and less.
    This screams low attraction, which is always tough to hear.  But working on your own deficiencies naturally lends itself to improving your overall relationship.  It isn't that you are "not being enough of a man."  It is that you can be a better man.  You know it.  I know it.  It is time to start being it.
    Endeavor to be what you desire to appear.
  • frillyfunfrillyfun East PodunkGold Women Posts: 3,386
    I wouldn't buy her something- do something cute with your kid's hand print, or frame a picture that's special to you.

    The next time she acts hostile for no reason grab you son, and go out.  Send the clear message that you don't want to be around her when she's acting like that.
    amblrgirl
  • Dragon72Dragon72 Mexico CityMember Posts: 77
    How the rest of our anniversary panned out:

    When I got back from work I got her some beautiful flowers and I got us a delicious cake.  

    She was ironing when I arrived so I went to give her a kiss. She showed me her cheek to kiss. No reciprocation. Thanks, she said. Then she carried on ironing for another 45 mins while I heated up leftovers for my meal and ate while our son played by my side.  They had already eaten.

    Eventually she came down and acknowledged the flowers, saying they were beautiful (they really are!) and we had some of the cake, a favorite of both of ours. It was a light and fun atmosphere mostly because our attention was focused on our son.

    Then she took him up to bed at 7.30 and stayed there, leaving me on my own for the x-hundredth time for the evening. On our anniversary.

    An hour later the phone rang.  It was her, phoning from the room directly above, asking for cash. She has spent all the money in her part of the monthly budget already. Could I leave her some, she asked. 
    CartB4Horse
  • JellyBeanJellyBean Sunny SoCalGold Women Posts: 5,054
    How are things going for you?
    Enneagram type 9w1
    amblrgirl_io
  • Dragon72Dragon72 Mexico CityMember Posts: 77
    Thanks for asking @JellyBean
    I'm very busy at work. I leave for work at 6.15am and soon after I get home at 7pm my wife goes to bed (still with our now 3 year old son).

    At weekends I spend much of the time cooking or playing with our son, both of which I love, while the Mrs finds more housework to do in another part if the house.

    So I don't have much contact with her. And most of the time she's civil.

    However, occasionally she'll turn on the passive agressivenesss, or up the pissy criticisms of my good deeds when she's angry at me for standing my ground when she hasn't gotten her way. I have either just ignored her if it's PA, or challenged bitchy remarks as being disrespectful.

    I am more and more convinced that she's somewhere on the light to medium end if the BPD spectrum, so I don't hold out much hope for major change. And besides, I'm not itching for us to become intimate any time soon either.  It's hard to love someone who doesn't act like they love you.  

    So we're housemates. Not much more.  It's been more than 3 months since we last made love, and there hasn't been so much as a peck on the cheek since then.

    Meantime, I'm MAPing quietly when I can. Just getting on with things so I can provide for my family.


    IrishGypsy
  • Dragon72Dragon72 Mexico CityMember Posts: 77
    My major reds are:

    Money - our budget's so tight and with a new car to pay off, it's left nothing for fun or for savings.

    Relationship comfort. She clearly has lost all romantic interest in me. And consequently I'm losing interest in someone who has made herself so unavailable to me.  

    We're about a million miles from drive-bys, a world away from emotional intimacy (she's just not capable of that, never has been) and light years from pound-town.

    She doesn't trust me one bit, and since I caught her lying to me recently over trivial things so she can seem more of a suffering martyr to "hard labor" as a stay at home mom, I'm wondering what else she's lied to me about.

    I need to get out more and socialise and make myself happy again.  But she has such abandonment issues and makes me out to be derelict in my duties as a husband and father if I take time and especially money for myself.  She herself has no "life" to speak of and would rather I didn't get one either.

    I feel pretty depressed and stuck in a joyless rut.

    I have a week of vacation coming up at the end of the month and I'm dreading having to be constantly on edge with her alternating between trying to control me and avoid me.  I should be looking forward to vacation, not dreading it FFS!
    Pen_and_SwordMjolnir
  • CartB4HorseCartB4Horse Southwest USASilver Member Posts: 4,155
    Definition of a Vampire ^^^^.

    Freedom can be found when you do what YOU want to do regardless of your wife's desires.  Not saying to do anything wrong, just go out and enjoy life.

    After all, what's she going to do, not give you any sex?

    Put back on course via a 'One Hour Call' with Athol.  Seriously worth 10 times the cost, but don't tell him that....

    “Between stimulus and response, there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom.” - Victor Frankl 

    SallyManderLittlejoe
  • Dragon72Dragon72 Mexico CityMember Posts: 77
    I'm beginning to think I'm in the wrong place here.
    So many of my wife's behavior bear the hallmarks of Borderline Personality Disorder

    With people suffering from BPD, strategies such as A&A seem to aggravate situations, not improve them in the long term.  They need their emotions validated, not in effect ridiculed.  She is indeed batshit crazy as some have commented, andso I don't think the same rules apply.

    Add to that the depressed state of mind I have found myself in after a few years on walking on eggshells and being in a relationship with practically nonexistent emotional intimacy and very rare physical intimacy. Trying to MAP in this state of mind and with such a person is a losing battle. 

    I know that sounds defeatist and that I should just MAP away for my own sake. I actually think I wasn't so "broke" in the first place and that, for the right person, I'm pretty darn awesome just as I am.

    I think I'd be better off either: divorced, in which case, with a BPD person, the nightmare will continue forever, well after divorce; or adopting some strategies for cohabiting with that special sort of person.  I'm just not sure being Alpha is going to change the way someone with serious issues behaves.
    Blackwulf
  • Dragon72Dragon72 Mexico CityMember Posts: 77
    I think that for the MAP to work, there has to be a modicum of initial abilitt to trust, be intimate and self-secure on the part of the partner for it to work.
  • BlackwulfBlackwulf Leading the pack. Silver Member Posts: 1,782
    Who you were at the beginning of your marriage is who you should be going back to.  Living with a spouse who has mental health problems is marriage on hard mode especially if they aren't getting treatment. 

    In a normal marriage it will wear down your frame.  BPD and mental health issues will wear you down 2x as fast.  

    You will have work to do in either staying in the marriage or divorce.  I personally wouldn't stay in a marriage where my wife needed mental health treatment and she would refuse to address it.  

    This is where you know you are reaching phase 4.  You know what you want and you can articulate it and you aren't afraid of it because you will be more than just OK.     
    JellyBean
  • Dragon72Dragon72 Mexico CityMember Posts: 77
    On Halloween I was showing her photos of my school's Halloween costume parade (I'm a schoolteacher) and she saw a photo of me with my "team", a male coworker and a female coworker.  She asked me if I was "seeing" the female.  I have absolutely no relationship with this person beyond a professional one.  She then said that it would be okay if I were seeing her, but that I should tell her, that's all.  I said that from my point of view it would not be okay for me, because I am married and that I would not dream of going with another woman.  I saw her reaction as a symptom of her (undiagnosed) Borderline Personality Disorder - in that i think she saw the photo of me with another woman, got hyper-jealous (a BPD trait) and reacted by going the other way and suggesting she doesn't care.

    What she said really saddened me as it felt to me like she was declaring that our relationship was dead to her.  It's difficult to know if that's really the case as people with Borderline Personality Disorder often push when they mean to pull and vice versa.  ("I hate you, don't leave me")

    Fast forward to yesterday and I saw some new panties drying on the clothes line.  Her normal style of underwear is big cotton grannie-panties that she wears until they fall apart.  These were sexy g-strings with revealing lace as the front section.  And another pair of cute satin-y nylon panties.

    She's always seemed to be very shy about her body (which I have told her often is very attractive) even during the "good times" and has never let me see her in her underwear or naked except when we got together for sex.  For example she has always changed out of and into clothes in the privacy of a locked bathroom, and we have never, ever, showered or bathed together.  She has worn lingerie once or twice (literally!) and that has been when she has wanted sex.  

    So this sudden appearance of sexy panties has stirred up a whole range of emotions in me.  I felt turned on by them and also grieving and sad that we haven't had a healthy sex life.  Could it be possible that she got them for my viewing pleasure? Was it just for her? Has she got them for the benefit of another man?  However, she has ZERO social life and goes to bed with our son at 7pm every night.  She's a prudish devout Catholic who never drinks or goes out, preferring to knit and watch soap-operas on TV. She's just not the affair type.  Am I being a blind cuckold?

    As I wished her goodnight yesterday, I said "I like your new panties.  Could you show them to me on you one day?"
    Her reply was, "What panties?"
    "The very obviously brand new yellow ones on the clothes line," I replied.  
    She fumbled around, dodged the question and changed the subject.  So I wished her a good night and left her to sleep there in our 3 year old son's room like always.

    I just don't know what to think anymore.
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