I hope there's hope for us...

PPGPPG USAMember Posts: 10

I’ve decided to share my triage.  I’m so glad I found this forum and the book MMSLP.  I feel like a moron for not figuring out some of this stuff myself, but alas, here I am.  I started just writing this to see how therapeutic it was.  It’s helpful for me to look back on the last (almost) third of my life.  I think I’ve already answered some things for myself, but there are some things I’m probably not realizing so let me know what you think.  Maybe there’s something that I need to focus more on in my MAP.  I also wanted to share so other guys could see they aren’t the only ones in sexless marriages.  My story isn’t that different from a lot of others, but I think just knowing you aren’t the only one going through this helps.  So here’s my story, the good, the bad, and the ugly. 

1. The Basics: I’m 43, and my wife is 42.  We met my senior year in college and have been married for 16 years.  We have two girls, 13 and 4.  Realistically, I’m probably about a 7 and I’d say my wife is a 6.5 to 7.  This is a hard one for me to judge because I’m a bit of a romantic and I honestly see her as a 10.  (Of course I think “I’ve still got it” so I’ve got to be a nine or ten myself right?... The lack of women throwing themselves at me tells a different story though! J )  So, from an outsider’s realistic point of view I’d say I’m a solid 7 and she was an 8 when we married (but thought she was a 6).  Since then she’s aged and put on some lbs so she’s a 6.5 to 7.  I’m 6’-2” and about 205, she’s 5’-11” with a nice butt, big breasts and long blonde hair.  I think one issue is she thinks she’s something like a 4 or she feels like a 4, but more on that below. 

2. Medical: Me: I’m decently fit and fairly active, although not as much as I should be.  I used to skydive and BASE jump but have given those up for several reasons, but I still get my airtime fix by paragliding on the weekends.  The flying is easy, but before and after running around gives me a fitness reality check and I try to hike for a few miles at least once a week when I have time.  I’ve never been much of a gym guy or into lifting weights.  I always say I’m going to, but never really get the motivation.  I could probably do it and I have a pretty decent “frame” so I would look good if I put in the time, but I doubt at 43 I could still grow much muscle mass, so I’m concentrating on trying to eat healthier, loose a little weight and do cardio stuff like hike and bike.  In the bedroom, I’ve had some “premature” issues, but it comes and goes and I’m able to go the distance more often than not or make sure she has a good time even if I finish first.  She has mentioned this as an issue in the past though and I want to find a way to fix it.

Her: As I mentioned above, I think she’s a 10, the common guy would say she’s about a 7, but I think she feels like a 4 or maybe less.  Our first daughter went 2 weeks past full term and was a C-section so my wife has always been very self-conscious of her belly scar and extra flab and says her boobs sag too much (they don’t).  After that she went through several miscarriages and lots of fertility tests and meds.  It was an emotional roller coaster and she was told she would never have another child.  After several years we gave up on the hopes of a 2nd kid but then a few years later (after stopping all the drugs and selling all the baby stuff) our second daughter showed up (C-section as well) and is perfectly healthy.  Since then my wife lost some weight and was doing great but has since slipped back into old ways and is always busy with work, kids, life, etc. so she’s put it back on.  I mention this only because I know her weight bothers her.  I honestly am very attracted to her sexually and see her as the beautiful (and sexy) mother of my kids and love the body she has because it’s the body that shows how much she loves our family.  To me she’s like “Jessica Rabbit” but in her eyes I think she sees “Rosanne” in the mirror.

   

Comments

  • PPGPPG USAMember Posts: 10

    She was also diagnosed with Hashimotos after our 1st child and has had thyroid issues for a long time.  She blames her lack of libido on this, but I also see it as a source of her moodiness.  She’s also going through early menopause so her whole cycle is screwed up and instead of the typical one week a month of her in a bad mood, it’s more like one week a month where she’s in a good mood and three weeks of her being uptight, distracted, sometimes grumpy, but mostly just tired.  She always says she’s “exhausted” and I call tell she’s tired, but she still takes care of what needs to be done for her family and work.  Unfortunately, there’s nothing left there for the two of us at the end of the day. 

    3 - Structural:  No big structural issues.  We recently moved into a nice house on a lake that most would considered an affluent neighborhood, even though the house isn’t huge.  We just finished putting in a pool and landscaping the backyard as well.  I make good money (a little over $100K) and she recently started working again so we’re doing ok financially.  She always says she wants our home to be her sanctuary/getaway/relaxing place to be, so I’m trying to work on not being a cheapskate and making it as nice as we can.  (I’d rather have an ok home filled with pictures of all the adventures we spent our money going on, but marriage is about balancing everyone’s needs and we still do a fair amount of fun stuff and I get to do some fun guy trips so I’m not complaining.  Besides, she’s very good at making a house into a home and it’s nice to have a beautiful home to share with my family and friends.)  I’m in decent shape, but get some bad breath and stinky feet.  Other than that, I’d consider myself a good catch.  I’m not rolling in money, and don’t have aspirations to take on a larger role at work, because frankly I’d rather spend my time with my family and doing recreational things (myself and together) than being super ambitious at work and end up realizing in 15-20 years that I have a lot of money and prestige but I’ve wasted my good years at the office.  I don’t think this bothers her and she’s not a materialistic diva or anything, but I’m sure she wouldn’t mind if I was a superstar at work and brought home some big bonuses and got promoted.  The only real step up for me is becoming a VP but I think the time/stress of that would overpower any benefits at home.

    Financial discussions seem to be a decent part of the distance between us.  We seem to spend what we have so our savings isn’t what we want it to be and we end up going through cycles every few years of having a lot of money, then living pay check-to-paycheck.  Another issue is what we spend our money on.  I’ve always tried to consider it “our money” especially when she was staying home with our first daughter.  The time she spent with her was invaluable and the amount of work she did around our house, keeping up on the bills, coordinating kid’s events, etc. is worth a lot. So I’ve never had a problem seeing it as “our” money.  But I have been known to go cheap on things like patio furniture, then turn around and spend money on new toys/gear for me or some trip with my buddies.  I know this ticks her off, but in my mind I try to spend reasonably and don’t get all of the toys I want or I get the lower quality piece of gear, because I know we need to spend money on stuff like the patio furniture.  Now that she’s working, she’s started to spend more money on new clothes for work and little things and acts like it’s not a big deal because she’s making money.  I just see it as “we” are making more money.  Not sure where I’m going with this but it seems like an issue to her.      

  • PPGPPG USAMember Posts: 10
    4. Critical Neglect:

    I mentioned me spending money on myself a little more willingly than on her or the house, family, etc.  I’d say the only other issue on my side is my lack of awareness/empathy towards others can come across as me not caring.  It’s not that I’m a self-centered jerk, but I’m just not good at picking up on signals or remembering things like when our kids have what event going on or the fact that her mom had a Dr. appointment tomorrow that she’s nervous about.  I’m getting better at this, but my mom is the same way and I know it drives my wife nuts to deal with it.

    On her side the obvious neglect issue is sex.  She is a wonderful mother, and amazing cook, great with our friends (even my friends she doesn’t really have anything in common with) and all around is a perfect wife that I feel very lucky to have… except that our marriage is essentially sexless and there is a definite wall between us when no one else is around.  About once every 3-5 (or more) months, if we find ourselves without the kids (on a weekend together or they are at grandparents that night), and if she get’s drunk enough but not too drunk, and if the stars align and she happens to be in the right mood, it’s not shark week, she’s not exhausted, and if I haven’t said or done anything to piss her off…. Then we find a way to ignore the problems in our marriage and she will proclaim, “I want to have sex!” and take off her clothes then lie on the bed with her legs up.

    No kissing, or flirting before hand, no real foreplay or anything.  Just, come and get it while you can, and it better be good.

    Of course, I’m not going to pass up any chance I can get with my wife, so I jump in and give it my best shot.  But after 5 months of nothing but ‘Rosie and her five sisters’, I’m a little more than excited, so the premature thing often comes into play.  Not always, but enough where it can be an issue and I can’t figure out why it’s so sporadic.  Then maybe every third or fourth time this whole thing plays out (ie, about once or twice a year) we both have a great time and agree that we should do this more often.  At times like that she has said before, “You should just be more aggressive and take me.”  Of course when I try that a week later, I get brushed off and she acts like she’s disgusted by me.

    Another neglect item is that she’s cheated on me, twice, sort of.  Before we moved to our current city, we had some friends back home that were pretty promiscuous.  I’m pretty sure they were swingers and the wife and my wife were very good friends.  In the past, my wife has hinted at the thought of being with another woman, not swinging with a couple but just her and another woman.  She admitted to me once that her and the other wife and “fooled around once” which based on everything I know, I think involved kissing and touching and that was probably it.  When I first learned about it, it kind of turned me on.  (I was so stupid...)  Fast forward a few years.  We’ve moved to our current city and the family across the street was really friendly.  We got along with them well and our kids played together all the time.  He was into his younger son’s racing hobby and was always wrenching on the car his kid races.  He was generally an Alpha kind of asshole.  Not always alpha in a good way, but just a jerk to his wife, etc.  My wife is hotter than his, I make more money, I’m not an asshole… so I felt like I was winning the game of life there.  One day out of the blue my wife admits to me that he came over and tried to seduce her and she went along with it but then when they got to the point of actually making out, and getting handsy, she stopped it and he left.  I still don’t know how far it went but she swears to me that they didn’t have sex.  I was surprised by my own reaction.  Instead of running over there and kicking his ass, I got this Alpha urge to somehow “win” and ended up banging the hell out of my wife a coupe of times.  I later thought about it more and remembered our friends back home and realized, wait a minute, she cheated on me back then and was admitting it because she feels guilty, just like now.”  (Remember when I mentioned I’m not good at picking up on signals.)  I told the guy off, threatened him, they moved out of town, we moved to a different neighborhood and I forgave my wife.  I’ve never forgotten it.  It still keeps me up at night sometimes, but I told her I forgave her and that our family and our marriage was more important than some BS fling with a douchebag.  Things seemed to perk up after that. I thought we made it through a big test and were stronger for it.  Since then, the Hashimotos, early menopause, money fights, etc. have slowly lead to even less sex and more distance between us.     
  • PPGPPG USAMember Posts: 10

    5. Outside sources:  I highly doubt she is up to anything with anyone.  Not even an EA.  She feels unattractive and tired all the time and doesn’t have time to even take care of herself much less fool around with anyone.  I’ve rescinded to porn but I’m so tired of getting denied by my wife, taking care of myself and then acting like everything is ok… Rinse.  Repeat… Then someday have a heart attack and die.  Something has to change.

    6/7. When did it go bad?  What was it like in the beginning:  At first, we were young and fun and much more active in the bedroom.  We took some great trips/adventures together and we even video taped ourselves in bed one time, but realized we looked pretty silly and just laughed about it afterwards.  We “christened” each room of our first house together.  And when we got a new couch, well, that needed to be “broken in” as well.  It seems like a long time ago, but I don’t remember feeling deprived or neglected.

    When she was towards the end of her pregnancy and definitely after our first child, the sex dropped off significantly.  I thought it was just a temporary thing.  She had been through the ringer with the delayed birth and C-section and we were both tired most of the time due to baby duties.  The C-section surgery was a big deal and took a long time to recover from.  I had hopes that my sexy wife would return and she did to a certain extent, but not at the pre-baby level of frequency or intensity.  There were exceptions to this and we had some great little flings together even doing it in the same room while the baby slept while we were on vacation once.  After we moved to the new city, our daughter was a little older so now there were girl scout meetings, and new friends to meet from school and all kinds of things that took up my wife’s time and energy and therefore our intimate time together lessened even more.  Then the cheating neighbor and more intimacy drop off.  Then the fertility treatments and very unromantic things like “scheduled” time to get her preggo… more drop off.  The second baby was a big deal.  She was older, which meant higher risk, bedrest, etc.  Then the second C-section and now we’re raising an infant even though we’re almost in our 40’s… so now we’re down to sexy time once every 3-5 or more months, she feels exhausted/frumpy/fat/hormonal/menopausal, and acts as if she is physically repulsed by me most of the time.  I can’t get more than a peck of a kiss.  Even when I try to tell her that I just want to sit on the couch with her she acts like I’m going to jump her bones and doesn’t want anything to do with me so she sits on the other end of the couch.   

    8. Elephant in the room:  I guess this would be porn.  I’m sure she assumes I look at it, but I doubt she knows how much.  I’ve lessened it quite a bit, frankly just because I’m tired of it and want to be with my wife, not some bimbo from a video.  I’ve never had the nerve to cheat on her or even a desire to “get back at her”.  I promised God and everyone else that I would be with this woman forever and I’m too much of a hopeless romantic, so How could I be with someone other than the woman I love?  I know I would feel like sh!t immediately afterwards, and risk everything, so what the point.  I can’t do that to my dughters and I definitely can’t do that to my wife.  Porn isn’t cheating in my mind though since there isn’t another “person”.  I see it as a crutch to lean on.  I need to eat even though the kitchen is closed.  I just don’t need to gorge myself on junk food… I need to get the kitchen back open and the cook happy.

    9. Who’s the leader: She is.  I’ve always asked for sex instead of demanding it, so she’s the one who decides when it’s time.  She says she wants me to initiate, but after having the door slammed on me so many times, I’m honestly tired of getting turned down.  I even tried spooning with her last night but she rolled over after a minute as if to say, “go away”.  She used to work at an accounting firm, so she pays all the bills and does the finances.  I manage the 401K and stocks, but she does the day to day stuff.  I’ve always thought I should be more involved, but I’ve been lazy.  I go to work, my check is automatically deposited, the bills get paid and I don’t have to worry about anything.  The problem is she’s left worrying about everything and I’m sitting there like a big dumb kid asking her what’s for dinner.  She doesn’t need another kid, she needs a husband.  But so far, I’ve only casually checked in on that position over the years.  I need to take charge of my family and my marriage and be the husband she needs me to be.  Until then, she’s left paying the bills, and cooking/cleaning for three kids.


    So there you have it.  My marriage in a nutshell.  I'm organizing and starting my MAP but if you have any ideas, I'm all ears. 

    amblrgirlUnBetaMefordsvtCartB4Horse
  • LittlejoeLittlejoe TexasSilver Member Posts: 151

    @PPG - Your story has a lot of similarities to my own...so I can tell you that you have your work cut out for you.  There is some low hanging fruit that you can MAP to that will help you get a handle on it all.  First, as @Jen_Kay said, your wife's medical issues should be a major place to start.  Thyroid issues are very tricky and often take a while to get under control...and then they will change and require more adjustment...so constant monitoring and care should be a priority. 
    In my case, I found a lot of my issues were both physical and my attitude/behavior.  I had gotten fat and lazy, and I also had ceded too much of my leadership to my wife...and she absolutely hated it.  When I forced myself to become a much more involved and POSITIVE leader, as well as losing weight (currently 40 lbs. and 4" off my waist) and hitting the gym to add some lean muscle, soon had my wife giving ME drive by's and being much more affectionate in general.  So, take from me, MAP like your marriage depends on it...because it just might.  Get on a smart eating plan and start doing some exercise that will help sculpt your physique.  Disinterest at the level your wife is giving you screams you are not attractive to her.  It's up to you to become the man she is interested in and wants to take to bed.  Good luck!

    PPG
  • OneEyedDrunkOneEyedDrunk Out West Silver Member Posts: 1,808
    Welcome to the forum. You're in the right place to make some changes. Have you read the Primer? There are some strategies you can try to increase her attraction as you MAP. I used to be like you. I would just go with the flow, and let her make all the decisions. Yes dear. Sure. No problem. Yes honey, wherever you want to eat. the problem is she was loosing respect for me as I was basically a pushover. 

    One place to start might be with date night. Don't tell her where you are going. Choose a place. Let it be a surprise. Choose a fun place that she might like. That's your first location. Then go bowling. I made a sexual game out of who's going down on who when it's a win. Tease her. Play with her. She may call you creepy. If she does then stop. Her attraction might not be there. If she plays along, then have some fun with it. 

    Think of how how you dress. Manscape possibly. She's used to the old you who lays around in your sweats. Display high value. Maybe pick out a few newer outfits. Get rid of the dad jeans with sneakers. 

    Ive been where you are at. I've made some great changes. I feel like I'm more in charge of my life. I get sex pretty regularly from my wife which hasn't kept me posting here as much. Not much on the sex department this week as she's on her period. 

    It will happen. The Primer is key. Good luck to you. 

    oneeyeddrunk.weebly.com
    DaddyOhPPGCartB4Horse
  • PPGPPG USAMember Posts: 10

    Thanks for the feedback .  To answer some of the questions above, yes she does work almost full time now and yes, I've read the MMSLP book.  We keep a family calendar on the wall and I have most stuff in Outlook, but I've typically got some much going on that when she says something about a thing next weekend I draw a blank until.I look at my calendar.  

    I've started eating better and counting calories and already dropped about 5lbs.  A big change for me is working out.  I'm trying out some basics in the morning like push ups, sit ups, somenothe rstuff like that and even though it's only been a few days I already feel better so hopefully I can stay the course.  I think the MAP is a great way to stay motivated and focused on goals like this.  I haven't really had that in the past so finger crossed... I've done a few things like trying to be more decisive and taking care of the dinner plans, being more proactive with things from chores to making sure the kids are on track with homework and generally trying to act like a captain instead of just being fat dumb and happy and letting things happen.  I want to focus on the eating, working out and captaining for now, then next phase would be taking more charge with the finances and budgeting.

    There's so much stuff in the web for fitness and eating well, so if anyone has found a good eating guide/meal planner/tracker and/or had any reccomendations for workouts with limited equipment and time, please share.

    Also if anyone has more experience with the Hashimotos thing I'm all ears.  I've read a lot about how diet can affect the thyroid so maybe cutting out lactose or gluten or something for a while would be worth suggesting to my wife.(?)  That would be a hard sell since she's kind of a "foodie" but I hesitate to bring up seeing a different Dr. Because I think she likes the one she's with and seems to be doing ok.  That'd probably the next phase, but I don't want that to come across as "I want you to get a new Dr so you can give me more sex." 

  • fordsvtfordsvt Canada Eh!Silver Member Posts: 2,300
    @PPG  welcome here. You can fix this man. 
    Start by leading. She's the leader right now that's for sure. 
    Read the Primer and learn about building attraction and relationship comfort. You have lots of good going for you. There is lots to do but. You can do this for sure. She's not attracted at all.  Sex every 3-5 months ? Wow that's rough.  Not even close to what's needed.  
    Read the Primer and the MAP Book.  It's going to change you for the better 

    Into Phase 3..

    Those Who Dare......Win.   "What gives you fear today...Gives you Strength tomorrow.."

  • DaddyOhDaddyOh CTGold Men Posts: 1,589
    You keep mentioning you're not into weightlifting. I know of runners (typical runners body) who still hit the gym. You want to lift heavy things. You're a guy. You need some muscles.

    Plus, the gym is different environment. A place you can get away to. Place you can meet some new people.

     Get out of the norm. Try something new.
    "How vain it is to sit down and write when you have not stood up to live."
    TenneeCartB4HorseRicoWinter
  • Jen_KayJen_Kay Posts: 374
    PPG said:

    Also if anyone has more experience with the Hashimotos thing I'm all ears.  I've read a lot about how diet can affect the thyroid so maybe cutting out lactose or gluten or something for a while would be worth suggesting to my wife.(?)  That would be a hard sell since she's kind of a "foodie" but I hesitate to bring up seeing a different Dr. Because I think she likes the one she's with and seems to be doing ok.  That'd probably the next phase, but I don't want that to come across as "I want you to get a new Dr so you can give me more sex." 

    "I see how tired you are and I'm worried about you...I want you to be feeling well and be happy" is the way to spin that one.

    I assume she's on meds...maybe just a med check and bloodwork with the current doctor would be a place to start. If her current dose isn't working, that's a simple fix.
    LeticiaMrsJon
  • PPGPPG USAMember Posts: 10
    edited October 12
    Also, I plan on doing this in a couple of progressive phases.  Most of the items above are phase 1.  Phase 2 is digging into the budgeting and discussing the thyroid stuff with my W in more detail.  

    Fingers crossed, but hopeful.
    MrsJonAngelineHildaCornersHowlAtTheMoon
  • CartB4HorseCartB4Horse Southwest USASilver Member Posts: 4,155
    I've read many blog posts but the two that I incorporated into my being that fundamentally changed my marriage included the one on Leadership Moments.  I can't recommend it enough.....

    http://marriedmansexlife.com/2014/02/the-leadership-moment-quota/

    Put back on course via a 'One Hour Call' with Athol.  Seriously worth 10 times the cost, but don't tell him that....

    “Between stimulus and response, there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom.” - Victor Frankl 

  • MrsJonMrsJon ColoradoSilver Member Posts: 466

    @PPG ;  A thought for you as far as meals.

    A great captainy thing would be to get in the habit of you sitting down on Sunday afternoon (or whenever suits) and coming up with meal plans for the week ahead. Be sure and have your calendar in front of you to factor in any evening activities and plan around them. Example: Mondays are busy right after work with activity X. Plan a crockpot meal for that night. Dinner will be all cooked when you do get home.

    Invite your wife to participate in the planning session. Have fun with it. Look up some new healthy recipes together. Maybe have two nights a week where you cook? Or cook together as a couple activity?

    I think you are doing well with your MAP! Great job so far!

    Also well done with the weight loss too. I see lots of positive momentum here, and that is a good thing.


    I went looking for my dreams outside of myself and discovered, it's not what the world holds for you, it's what you bring to it.  
           Anne Shirley - Anne of Avonlea
                                              
    AngelineHannelore
  • PPGPPG USAMember Posts: 10
    MrsJon, Healthy crock pot meals are a great idea.  Thanks!

    nubby, she comes from a pretty traditional midwest upbringing so be "motherly" and doing domestic things is one of the ways she shows love for her family.  So part of me didn't want to overstep my bounds there (and I've royally messed up laundry and meals before)... But I know she hates some thing like laundry and working WITH her on meals is a great idea.  Thanks also for the reminder about not losing my temper with the kids.  That's something I definately need to concentrate on.  Also actively listening is key.  I always think I'm listening but I realize later when I've completely forgot what we talked about thatvi wasn't.  So I'll work in that.  Thanks for the tips!
    Pen_and_Sword_ioamblrgirl
  • nubbynubby Right HereSilver Member Posts: 1,964
    @PPG my wife was brought up the same. She travels for a week every 2-3 months and really appreciates the fact that when she comes home the house is spotless and the weeks eorth of laundry isn't in a huge pile waiting for her. 

    That said, she normally does the laundry but If happen to be close by its no big effort to unload the dryer and fold the laundry and toss another load in the dryer. Why? I needs to be done and I'm close by so I do it. 

    I never used to. E able to cook and always relied on my wife to do it. After helping in the kitchen enough I was able to easily plan and cook meals. After all, if I were to end up on my own, I would need that life skill. I have also found cooking to be quite relaxing and when I wear only my tool belt while doing it, it's sexy too, so says my wife. 

    For a few years I did most of the cooking while my wife picked up the kids. It got to a point where they begged her not to cook and wait for dad to do it. Apparently she had a tendency to burn things. 

    I'm not by all means saying you should take over all those things, but you should be confident enough to be able to handle anything around the house if something were to prevent your wife from being able to do it. That is huge relationship comfort. 

    We have also assigned age appropriate chores for the girls but sometimes sometimes things come up and they are unable to get them done. Instead of getting all pissed off and yelling at them, I just take care of it (because it needs doing) and assign an alternate chore when they have time to do it properly. 

    I also refrain from losing my temper with my wife which in the past was not very often mainly because I let things build until I exploded. That in turn made her lose any feeling of safety. She never knew when I would go off. 

    Now things are dealt with right away, calmly and respectfully. She feels safe knowing I won't blow up and it's easier to make any discussion happen and find a resolution to the problem.

    I look at like this. If I wouldn't talk to my mother or boss in a certain way, there's no way I should talk to my wife any differently. To gain respect you have to show respect. 

    I love giving my wife time off from doing certain things around the house. I love to stop by where she parks and leave a long stem rose on her seat to find after work or slip a note into her lunch. She really appreciates the small gestures. 

    My wife likes to make me lunches for work so I always fire off a text letting her know I appreciate her doing so or I tell her as she's making it. It's the little things that in most relationships that fall by the wayside that wives tend to really respond to. It shows love and caring. I don't do it to get sex. I get sex because I do these things without prompting. 

    Just some things to think about. 
    IrishGypsyedithkeelerSignorePillolaRossa
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