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Post-affair, low-sex marriage: my (second) triage
Ervin3070
Silver Member Posts: 51
Hello all
I have recently changed my username and had my triage deleted, as I'd given enough details to be identified, at least by someone who knew, or knew of, me. I'm starting again. If you have already responded, thank you, and please don't feel like I'm asking you to repeat yourself, though I'd love any new thoughts.
1) So, I'm W and she's L, both near enough to 50 as makes no difference, and have been together (and married) over a decade. I have grown-up kids from a previous, we have none together. We're both average height and healthy weights for our heights. I'm a 6/7 and she's a good 8- definitely still turning heads (including mine.)
2) There are medical problems. L takes a low-dose antidepressant, and I have a condition which can cause me to be tired at times. It doesn't stop me holding down a decent job and having hobbies and a social life; neither does L's medication really stop her doing anything she wants to, as far as I can tell.
3) I don't think there are structural problems. We live in a house and a place that we both love, and have a comfortable income and no debt apart from mortgage.
4) Critical moments: L had an affair several years ago, which resumed almost immediately after I'd found out about it the first time. The affair took place over about 7 months; I first discovered it, via a third party, about two months in, and again about five months later, when I received in the post a package of emails between L and the OM.
5) I don't think there's an outside sex source. I don't think L has had an affair since the above (before, is a different issue.) I masturbate regularly but this is due to lack of sex and is not a substitute for sex.
6) The sex went "bad" really early on; before we were married. Went from hot, to a chore (for her); I was drip-fed. It's been like this ever since, including before, during and after the affair. In fact, the lack of a change in our sexlife during the affair is something which, I think, makes my case a little unusual: I believe that affairs are often signalled by a change in sexlife, either worse or better. "Good" sex was about five times a week, with willing and enjoyable oral on both sides but- and I'm sure this is significant- no kissing (well, closed-mouth kissing only)- and that was her decision. Since a first attempt on the night we met, I've never put my tongue in her mouth. I must say that I even find "bad" sex intensely satisfying. I think this is simply because I love L very deeply and the actual act of sex feels mutually great- it's just that it's not often enough, and there is virtually no foreplay. I was deeply unhappy for several years, but have got used to it now. However, the presence of an affair is preying on my mind and affecting everything. Put simply: she had great, enthusiastic sex with him (which I know from the emails) but never with me.
7) Sex at the beginning: I've answered that above. Hard to say why it changed. L denies it ever did, and says she's just not that into sex, but there was a definite change and I know (from her, and other sources) that there have been times when she has really enjoyed sex.
8) At present, the elephant in the room for me is the affair. It's seriously affecting my mental well-being but I just don't know what to do about it. Do I talk about it to her? I just can't see that ending well. A few months ago, I came (finally!) to the conclusion that I am responsible for my own happiness, I deserve to be happy, I don't deserve to continue being made miserable, and that if I don't do something to make myself happy, I won't be able to look myself in the mirror in ten years' time. The existence of a past affair is a constant reminder of many things; here's one specific example: the last time my wife had sex twice in one week wasn't with me, and the affair ended several years ago. I could list other examples.
9) Difficult to say who the leader is at present- I think we're even, or L might say it's me. Earlier, it was her, and sex was one of the main reasons. I felt so much more "powerful" when I was sexually satisfied, and felt like a slave when I wasn't, which was most, or nearly all, of the time.
10) Good times? I love my wife deeply. The affair has wounded and scarred me, but I still adore our time together. I can pinpoint some moments of the most sublime happiness. We're happier now than we were say, seven or eight years ago. I have a deep bond with L, that I can never really imagine being broken.
It's dawning on me that I improve this situation by working on myself first and that all else will follow; I'd come to that conclusion before I found this forum; I think my approach may be different to other guys, though the general principles will be the same. Please ask anything, or suggest anything, positive or negative, and I will give it my full consideration.
Thanks for reading, and thank you in advance.
I have recently changed my username and had my triage deleted, as I'd given enough details to be identified, at least by someone who knew, or knew of, me. I'm starting again. If you have already responded, thank you, and please don't feel like I'm asking you to repeat yourself, though I'd love any new thoughts.
1) So, I'm W and she's L, both near enough to 50 as makes no difference, and have been together (and married) over a decade. I have grown-up kids from a previous, we have none together. We're both average height and healthy weights for our heights. I'm a 6/7 and she's a good 8- definitely still turning heads (including mine.)
2) There are medical problems. L takes a low-dose antidepressant, and I have a condition which can cause me to be tired at times. It doesn't stop me holding down a decent job and having hobbies and a social life; neither does L's medication really stop her doing anything she wants to, as far as I can tell.
3) I don't think there are structural problems. We live in a house and a place that we both love, and have a comfortable income and no debt apart from mortgage.
4) Critical moments: L had an affair several years ago, which resumed almost immediately after I'd found out about it the first time. The affair took place over about 7 months; I first discovered it, via a third party, about two months in, and again about five months later, when I received in the post a package of emails between L and the OM.
5) I don't think there's an outside sex source. I don't think L has had an affair since the above (before, is a different issue.) I masturbate regularly but this is due to lack of sex and is not a substitute for sex.
6) The sex went "bad" really early on; before we were married. Went from hot, to a chore (for her); I was drip-fed. It's been like this ever since, including before, during and after the affair. In fact, the lack of a change in our sexlife during the affair is something which, I think, makes my case a little unusual: I believe that affairs are often signalled by a change in sexlife, either worse or better. "Good" sex was about five times a week, with willing and enjoyable oral on both sides but- and I'm sure this is significant- no kissing (well, closed-mouth kissing only)- and that was her decision. Since a first attempt on the night we met, I've never put my tongue in her mouth. I must say that I even find "bad" sex intensely satisfying. I think this is simply because I love L very deeply and the actual act of sex feels mutually great- it's just that it's not often enough, and there is virtually no foreplay. I was deeply unhappy for several years, but have got used to it now. However, the presence of an affair is preying on my mind and affecting everything. Put simply: she had great, enthusiastic sex with him (which I know from the emails) but never with me.
7) Sex at the beginning: I've answered that above. Hard to say why it changed. L denies it ever did, and says she's just not that into sex, but there was a definite change and I know (from her, and other sources) that there have been times when she has really enjoyed sex.
8) At present, the elephant in the room for me is the affair. It's seriously affecting my mental well-being but I just don't know what to do about it. Do I talk about it to her? I just can't see that ending well. A few months ago, I came (finally!) to the conclusion that I am responsible for my own happiness, I deserve to be happy, I don't deserve to continue being made miserable, and that if I don't do something to make myself happy, I won't be able to look myself in the mirror in ten years' time. The existence of a past affair is a constant reminder of many things; here's one specific example: the last time my wife had sex twice in one week wasn't with me, and the affair ended several years ago. I could list other examples.
9) Difficult to say who the leader is at present- I think we're even, or L might say it's me. Earlier, it was her, and sex was one of the main reasons. I felt so much more "powerful" when I was sexually satisfied, and felt like a slave when I wasn't, which was most, or nearly all, of the time.
10) Good times? I love my wife deeply. The affair has wounded and scarred me, but I still adore our time together. I can pinpoint some moments of the most sublime happiness. We're happier now than we were say, seven or eight years ago. I have a deep bond with L, that I can never really imagine being broken.
It's dawning on me that I improve this situation by working on myself first and that all else will follow; I'd come to that conclusion before I found this forum; I think my approach may be different to other guys, though the general principles will be the same. Please ask anything, or suggest anything, positive or negative, and I will give it my full consideration.
Thanks for reading, and thank you in advance.
0
Comments
How did the affair end? You confronted her? Was a 'no contact letter' sent out? Was the OM married and if so does his wife know about the affair?
How do you feel about your action/lack of action about the affair?
Put back on course via a 'One Hour Call' with Athol. Seriously worth 10 times the cost, but don't tell him that....
“Between stimulus and response, there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom.” - Victor Frankl
I strongly regret my lack of action after the affair. That would have been the time for some hard questions and answers, but I let it go. Everything I've read (well, the stuff I trust) says I should have demanded a minimum amount of information: when the affair started, exactly how it started, where it took place (I do know some of that), how and why it ended, and a few other things besides. L played everything down, and I went along with that. I can see now what I should have done but I feel to go back to it now would seem like the worst kind of weakness. I need another approach but I can't deny that I have some very strong, unpleasant and unresolved feelings about the affair. Part of this is because I do have some hard (documentary) evidence (still in my possession) about how the affair was conducted, at least part of it. It's taken me a long time to come to a couple of realisations; the second part of the affair was steamy, and I'm sure the first part was also (which L has denied or vastly played down); also, that there is a fair probability that L was unfaithful on other occasions before this affair. Looking back, I can certainly see how it could have happened, and how such a possibility would have been consistent with her later behaviour.
The good news? I had MMSL to help me figure things out and get moving in the right direction and it can help you.
Work on you, make yourself as Awesome as you can. You have to gain the confidence that if your wife were to cheat again you would be perfectly okay divorcing her immediately. At it's core you are afraid of being without her, you don't realize your own value and are lacking self worth.
Have you read The Primer and MMSL?
Put back on course via a 'One Hour Call' with Athol. Seriously worth 10 times the cost, but don't tell him that....
“Between stimulus and response, there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom.” - Victor Frankl
I never told my closest friend about the affair. I did this out of loyalty to L, and because he and she had always gotten on really well (when a man's wife likes his best friend, that's a good thing!) and I didn't want to spoil that.
The trouble is, it has, to an extent, left me with no one to talk to. Do I tell him now?
Remember to play!
Do the right thing, whether anyone is watching or not.
Be married, until you are not.
Email address: angeline.greenwood@att.net
So no consequences from the initial affair and no consequences from being caught 2nd time?
She does not want to talk about it? Well she does not get to choose this. Not wanting to talk about it just benefits her.
The correct way, that is if you are choosing to stay married is to have her write a no contact letter stating by your wife that there will be no contact via email, call or texts. And if seen at store or function she will leave immediately. Some people also expose to family and friends what happened. (That can be good and bad)
The WS is to be told that if there is contact again the next day the BS heads right to lawyer to start divorce process. You don't realize that if contact is started again how easy it is to start the affair.
To repair this marriage, a lot of hard work needs to be done. Is she putting any effort to do this?
You're afraid she is going to leave you, right? Deep down, that fear will fuck you over very soon. You are afraid to do what you need to do, afraid to leave your wife. She knows it as do you, that's why she does whatever she wants to do.
You need to gain self confidence, find your self worth, become more awesome and do it for YOU.
Put back on course via a 'One Hour Call' with Athol. Seriously worth 10 times the cost, but don't tell him that....
“Between stimulus and response, there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom.” - Victor Frankl
Because right now, virtually every question has the same answer to it -- "my wife had an affair." Ok, not to be too blunt about it but... we get that. Tell us about other things.
How did your first marriage end? What was the sex like there? Are there any CMNs in the other direction, towards her from you? Have you thought about any possible elephants that preceded her stepping out that you could talk about? How is the sex for her, because you describe liking bad sex and it sounds like she doesn't enjoy it? Is that a fair depiction of your marriage, sexually? If not, can you clarify? If so, then what have you tried to do to address it and why do you want bad sex? Can you come up with any other issues between you, like communication problems or anxiety/stress that might be relevant?
Give us something more to go upon here...
What makes you think he might already know? Do you think he may just have picked up on it, somehow? I suppose it's possible, but unlikely.
I agree with your other points, and you're right about stewing over things. I don't think I'll do that; the thing is, right now, I don't really have anyone to talk to about it, or not face-to-face at least; however, I may decide that's the way to leave things.
LadyOrTheTyger said: Yes, I'll consider that.
markymapo said: I'm almost certain she's not making any contact with him; since the affair ended, there have been circumstances which would make that highly unlikely; for the sake of privacy, I won't go into them. I would say L is a loving wife; the thing is, there is an unspoken agreement between us that the affair is ancient history so, for that reason, I don't think she feels she has any making up to do.
Your second paragraph is very blunt but, yes, there is fear there, I admit that. My fear is that she might do it again or, possibly worse, that she had already done it before; the latter is worse because, if true, I've virtually no way of ever knowing.
I completely agree with your last line and this is a realisation I have just come to.
I have, in the past, severely lacked confidence within our relationship, but I think that has improved greatly, and I aim for it to continue to improve.
I have another confidence-related issue: I had some trouble in my career over the last two or three years. I'm a teacher, and have climbed in my career slowly but steadily, mostly successfully. A while ago, I made the next step and the job didn't work out. I left after a few months with a big dent in my reputation. The root cause was my health problems, of which I have a couple. They're not insurmountable, but one of the effects is fatigue, and that has always caused me problems in my career. I have dropped a couple of rungs on the career ladder. I'm now more than capable of doing the job I'm in, but crises of confidence can sometimes (not all the time) be an Achilles heel.
One suggestion that has been made here is to have "options", and I need options both in my personal and professional life and I recognise what a boost in confidence this would give me: the confidence to walk away if necessary.
Most aspects of my job (teaching 11-18 year olds) are fine but I have a feeling of paranoia. This may well be a complete fantasy, but I need to be in a position to say, "Well, if you think I'm no good at this job, that's your opinion; you're wrong, so go fuck yourself," then leave for another job. It's when I think this scenario through that I become the archetypal bowed middle-aged man.
I intend to try to tackle this lack of confidence. I have succeeded in identifying it, which is a first step, but I need to build the foundations to move away from this position. It's not crippling, and much of it is imagined but I still need to get over it.
Yes, I talked about "bad" sex, but that was just a label for "the sex we have now." I think L enjoys it- I think she feels the way I do about it, a very intimate experience between us. She doesn't orgasm, and she doesn't seem bothered about that (but she could be hiding that), but she definitely seems to enjoy it. I'm not kidding myself though: I think there's a whole sexual side of her I'm not reaching, and probably never have.
I consider L's lack of interest in sex since before our marriage as a CMN, together with the occasional thing she'd say, referring to other men she'd had sex with- throw-away remarks for her, but not for me.
Elephants preceding the affair: probably my kids. She was great with them but, at the end of the day, they weren't hers. Also, I think it turned her off seeing me as a dad. What am I saying? I KNOW it did: she told me. Of course, knowing this DIDN'T make me a better dad, OR a better lover, as I didn't know how to handle this information.
A little bit about the teaching profession, at least in the UK, and from my perspective: teaching is basically the same as it always was, and the same as it'll always be, because kids and teachers don't change. However, there's always some new bullshit. Some of that bullshit sticks, and becomes orthodoxy, and you are pressured to go along with it. This process continues because teaching doesn't have a well-defined and easily-measured "product", I guess. I get a lot of satisfaction from my job, and I'm good at it, but I hate, hate, hate the bullshit. I don't mind people thinking, and doing, differently to me. Good on 'em; but as someone with over two decades' hard-won experience, I don't want to have to dance to someone else's tune. If I could think of something else I could make enough money doing, I'd consider leaving, or at least would feel confident saying, "No, I'm not doing THAT."
A bit about me: I'm intelligent and can hold a good conversation. I love music and play. I know a lot about music. I speak one European language well, having taught myself from scratch (now, THAT gets my wife's attention; she really loves my confidence when I'm abroad) and I'm interested in others. I'm good with different people. I have great friends; people who themselves are successful in many ways and highly respected- in their field, or in their personal lives. I love my kids (don't we all? Still, no harm in saying it) and my family, and also my wife's family. I consider them family, just as much as my own. I have had a successful semi-pro part-time career outside teaching; can't really say what it was, something I developed more or less on my own. It came to a natural end before I met my wife, but it was an achievement which I really value.
So, this is all about becoming a better person, for me, and letting the rest follow.
"Man, I had a mountain of guilt with how I handled my Ex-wife's affair."
So which book should I read first? I'm thinking the Mindful Attraction Plan.
Start with the MMSLP, then MMGTW videos.
My Ex had an affair and I was too afraid she'd leave me to do what I should have done right away.
Being a Nice Guy raised by his mother with friends only being around for short periods of time led me to fear of losing people I care about; they usually left within a year and a half.
What one should do is counter intuitive to what we think in that position. Run a 180, give hard ultimatums and absolutely follow them to the letter. One has to be willing to cut that cheating spouse out of their life, move on without them.
MMSL will give you what you need if you do the work, become awesome. Get confidence and self esteem. You have to get your confidence back, get that self esteem pumped up. Understand you have tremendous value and that if your marriage doesn't work out you will be happy in a short period of time. You don't need anyone else to be happy.
Put back on course via a 'One Hour Call' with Athol. Seriously worth 10 times the cost, but don't tell him that....
“Between stimulus and response, there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom.” - Victor Frankl
Firstly, my health issues. I don't want to say exactly what they are (even though this would no doubt be helpful) because eventually there'll be enough detail to at least have a stab at identifying me.
My illnesses cause me pretty regular and reliable fatigue, which sometimes gets worse, then I just have to rest, take it easy, do nothing. It's difficult to explain that to someone. I seem perfectly fine on the outside, but am exhausted, and it's a mental thing, too. When I feel like this, I may want to sit with my eyes closed all day, or go for a walk on my own, to get some mental space. What I don't want to do is be a leader- or, at least, not in an obvious way. I suppose I second-guess my L's reaction to this: that she'll be annoyed by my (apparent) inactivity. This is partly because my previous partner, mother of my kids, HATED to see me doing nothing. Oh, you have no idea what it was like. She literally could not cope if I sat down- she went ballistic. Her mother basically nagged her father to death in a similar way. Because I suffered that for a few years, I've brought it with me and I still 'imagine' L is reacting in that way. I need to find an attitude where I have absolutely no shame in resting when I feel unwell. These times of worse fatigue are difficult to predict, but maybe happen once every couple of months. At other times, I'm more tired than your average guy, but I get by.
Question: where do I start on doing a MAP? I think I get the idea of what a MAP is, but need a framework.
Whilst I'm talking about my health, and aware that I'm repeating myself, the fatigue is a significant problem. Oh god, I wish I could just run away from it. I know exactly where I'd go (hills, lakes, mist, few people; that's as much as you need to know.)