Triage: Attraction/energy during major medical issues

giraffe

We are in a bit of a mess but I don’t think it’s hopeless, at least not forever.  I am just not sure I have much power to control or change it atm.  My sex drive has been slowly drying up as we have faced some challenges that have impacted our marriage over especially the last year.  I acknowledge that I am not initiating at all with him, nor am I very responsive nowadays and have in the last couple of weeks just started refusing sex completely.  Just no, I am not interested, I am exhausted and uninspired.  The balance of responsibility between us is weighted pretty heavily on me at the moment while he tries to heal from some medical things.  It leaves me with little sexual energy or any extra energy at all.  Beyond that, when I have been open to sex it really has not engaged my passions, so I am kind of not motivated to keep having it at all.

But I don’t like that, even though I kind of accept it.  I would like some advice on whether I should just accept this until… or if there are things I could be doing to make it better under the circumstances.  I would love to convince my husband to do more of what I like of course, but I am not sure that is realistically my biggest or most important goal at the moment, either.

Question One

He’s late 40’s, I am very early 40’s.  We have been married almost 6 years.  We dated for 3+ before that.  We have four children between us, none together although we discussed having a child at some point before his medical issues came up.  I would say that’s not on the table anymore and it is not a source of friction, it just is.

Question Two – Rule Out Medical

I know there’s medical.  I just don’t know how much I can do about it. 

My husband has started having medical issues impacting his memory and cognitive functioning in the last year to eighteen months.  He has been recently run through a bunch of medical tests out of concerns that he could be showing signs of early alzheimers, dementia or possibly strokes.  They now think they have found enough evidence to rule out those things but we will have to repeat the tests in a couple of years, to be sure.  Instead they think the symptoms may be indications of some damage due to a brain injury he sustained that are impacting memory and processing.  If so, they think there’s a chance that he will actually improve over the next couple of years if we follow the doctors’ advice, treating the problem that caused the brain damage and memory issues. We are consciously downshifting our life to a lower pace and choosing to relax more, have less stress and try to let his brain heal.  The more “cognitive rest” he gets, the better his prognosis will be.

One of the things that may be impacted by this brain injury is his testosterone level.  It was extremely low about a year ago.  They are treating it with injections and have been for most of this year.  His T numbers are stable and he’s doing great with remembering to handle the shots, with reminders on his phone at least.  His libido is sometimes there, sometimes not.  His energy waxes and wanes, sexual and otherwise.

He has been very bothered, rightfully, by his medical issues, especially the brain stuff, and has pretty willingly followed up with doctors, even when what they have to say is scary or upsetting.  This has been a stressful and scary journey for us both, but all things considered we’ve been pretty united through it. There have been times during this process when I have been very confused and frustrated, before we figured out that something medical was going on.

My health is decent.  I have a history of thyroid issues 10+ years ago but currently am not on medication and am in good ranges with no symptoms.  I had depression years ago when life dealt repeatedly ugly blows for a while, but that has been over for a long time.  It was successfully treated with Wellbutrin and counseling over almost 2 years.  I continue to go for counseling once every month or two to keep depression from creeping back in and I discovered I do better with a little help along the way.

Question Three – Rule Out Structural Attraction Issues

His memory issues make life complicated sometimes.  According to the testing his IQ is in the 99.5 percentile for men his age and education level.  He and I (and everyone around us) are both used to him being highly functional and very intelligent.  The last year has been different.  I can tell him something and he literally does not remember it a few seconds later.  I said to him one day that I was going to forward him an email with a confirmation code in it that he may need.  He acknowledged what I was saying, remembered the event attached to the confirmation code and confirmed he understood.  I sent the email not 45 seconds later.  He got the email within 5 minutes and had zero recollection of why I was sending it, what it was or that we had talked about it.  Even upon reminding him about the conversation, he just does not remember and it freaks him out.  This is a common occurrence right now.

Sometimes not though, it is inconsistent, as proved by the neurological testing.  The neurological tests showed that sometimes his memory works and sometimes it just flat doesn’t.  It also showed that long term memory is intact and once something moves from short term to long term memory, his recall and attention to detail about it improves considerably.  He’s not faking, if anything he might be covering up for his memory issues by pretending he remembers things more than he actually is.  Stress seems to have an impact (negatively), but not always.

He was laid off from work in the Spring.  Which normally would be a major stressor in a marriage.  But not working has decreased his stress level, allowed him to rest more, be less cranky, sleep when he is tired (he needs more sleep due to the brain injury) and therefore increased his energy and memory.  So in some ways I have seen the old him come back after the layoff.  That is good. 

Money isn’t too tight for us, even on just my income.  We can make it on one income.  We setup our life on purpose so that we can pay all our bills on one income should something happen.  

Having general financial security doesn’t mean that sometimes I don’t feel stress about money and especially the pressure on me to be the provider as well as the caregiver and the nurturer.  Especially for expenses like his child support, which is not an ordinary household expense I had before we married and didn’t ever expect to pay, it is stressful to me.  He is better able to support me right now in a nonfinancial way while all this is going on, though, by handling household tasks, cleaning, cooking (he loves to cook and is excellent at it) and doing a lot of the household management.  That does help.  As a 1 to 10, money hovers typically around a 3-4 for me right now in terms of stress at the moment.  When something stressful financially happens it might spike for a little while up to maybe an 8.

He is job hunting. He’s been asked to join a few consulting groups and speaks at major conferences.  The long term memory stuff has not been impacted like the shorter term stuff (and 30 years at the top of his field makes that solid long term knowledge). 

giraffe

Question Four – Rule Out Critical Moments and Neglect

Will have to think on this.  We’ve had our share of ups and downs but nothing that still has a lot of teeth after this many years and working hard to be grateful for our time together.  The last year to 18 months have really been about being grateful for the little stuff and forgiving even some of the hurtful bigger stuff.   There's not a lot to be resentful of anymore.

Question Five – Rule Out Outside Sexual Sources

He uses some porn sometimes to masturbate, but says that’s been a lot less in the last year.  He says he’s gone back to reading some erotic stories lately, although I am not sure why.  Sometimes when I get tired of waiting for his libido to rise I read erotica and fantasize, usually during ovulation week.  I will very rarely watch a video myself, but a few times we have watched something together.

I have not cheated and I don’t think he has the ability to pull off such a con right now, for reasons of memory and keeping stories straight etc.  We have open communications for the most part and especially right now when I have access to his email, finances, phone records, power of attorney etc while I am in charge of so many life details I just don’t think it is possible.  I am pretty honest with him that I have had fleeting thoughts about other men at times when I am isolated with them, but have not acted on them or even fantasized about acting on them.  I wish I didn’t have those thoughts, but I am kind of sex and dominance starved at the moment, so I notice even a little interest/energy from other men coming in my direction more than I probably would otherwise. 

Question Six – When Did the Sex Go Bad?

When the medical stuff started.  We had amazing sex before it.   

I am bored by the low energy, monotonous sex.  Sometimes he misreads my signals and thinks when I say I’d like a little more dominance, what I mean is pin my arms for seven seconds and then demand in a strong tone of voice that I give him a bj.  Doesn’t work that way for me, I need a little time to get turned on.  ESPECIALLY when I am thinking about a million things, handling all the finances, making sure one of us remembers things that need to be remembered and feel like it's very much all on me without a reliable safety net.

I can’t count on him to lead outside the bedroom much of the time, but I would love to be able to count on him to lead in the bedroom.  That would help my stress. I am not mad about having to be in charge outside the bedroom all the time right now, I accept this as where we are with his memory at the moment.  However, it is exhausting.  I acknowledge being tired and really not wanting sex right now.  I am a very sexual woman and generally I am eager and playful.

I don’t want any sex that’s boring, that’s where I am right now.  I don’t have energy or time for it.  If it isn’t interesting and engaging for me, I don’t want it at all.  I don’t want to be teased and told that he’s going to bring it today and then it’s more the same, so I’ve felt myself completely turned off.  At the same time I know I don’t ALWAYS want the dominant, rougher stuff.  It’s just that it’s been over a year since I’ve really gotten any of it and I am bored with what we’ve been doing.

Question Seven – What Was the Sex Like at the Start of the Relationship?

Amazing, up all night, 20+ orgasms for me a night many nights, adventurous, exploratory, connected, engaged and just hot all the time for the first 4-5 years.  We couldn’t get enough of each other early on in the relationship.

Question Eight – What’s the Elephant in the Room?

I am bored in our sex life.  Many times lately I have to fantasize during sex about the way he used to be, more dominant in life and in bed as well as rougher in bed, more take charge in life and leading in order to get turned on.  That still does that for me, when I feel like it and when the mood strikes. 

I am strong, I am capable in and out of the bedroom.  I just don’t want to have to actually be that all the time.  I would like to be free to relax and let him lead sometimes.  

I know this is hopefully just a season of our life together, but I am tired and I have to be on most of the time right now.

I know we are in a medical situation and this may or may not solidly improve.  And if it does, it won’t be quick. I just miss it being different.  And I don't want to be ungrateful for the fact that we don't have a degenerative diagnosis that will take him from me slowly over the next few years but something that we can learn to live with and that may actually improve over time.

giraffe

Question Nine – Who is the Leader in your Marriage?

I would love it to be him, but it isn’t.  It’s me.  And it’s tiring.

He has a lot of butthurt lately.  When something happens and he forgets something he gets very internally upset about it and he beats himself up.  He has almost perfectionist tendencies and mistakes are not acceptable.  He then often claims or sees it as I keep bringing up his mistakes.  In reality, I bring things up sometimes to explain why I am stepping in and handling things or I remind him of things that need doing and he gets upset inwardly that he didn’t remember on his own.  I don’t know where the landmines are.  He is never violent or aggressive, although he can be curt and sharp stinging when his thin skin gets punctured and he reacts to a perceived slight.

One of the things the tests even showed about his personality is that he is very sensitive to criticism and has a very thin skin right now.  I really wish he would develop a thicker skin so the rest of us aren’t walking on eggshells.  This is just the reality right now and while it isn’t easy for any of us and isn’t his “fault”, it isn’t my “fault” either.

He gets plenty of positives about his strengths and what is working right now.  For instance, he is amazing at spacial processing.  He has always been able to build things with his hands easily, organize things and figure out how to maximize the use of space.  He recently helped a friend move and the friend had a storage unit that really wasn’t big enough for all his furniture and boxes, at least from everyone’s else viewpoint.  They thought he would need a bigger storage unit which would require a big change in plans at the last minute.  In a couple of minutes though my husband was able to tetris it all together and make everything fit and organize it very well.  Our friends walked away from that exclaiming “Your husband is amazing, did you see what he did in there?”  I didn’t even have to look, I knew he was the right guy to solve that and they were impressed as they should have been.  The other day friends came over and he cooked an amazing dinner from scratch and taught one of his guy friends (who is trying to learn to cook) in the kitchen how to make it.  Again, huge accolades from all of us.  Because he used to drive big trucks in the military my husband can drive a moving van backwards down a hill with a long curvy driveway with only one hand on the wheel and the radio blaring.  It’s no big deal to him at all.  We have a 350’ long driveway that does exactly that and it’s hard to get up and down for me in my little car going backwards without driving into the neighbor’s yard.  That impresses the sh*t out of me and I let him know it a lot.  When he gets praise for these things he beams and puffs up his chest sometimes and other times he just shrugs it off as “it’s easy”.  Because for him, it is.

My husband is used to hearing that he’s amazing in about 95% of what he does throughout his life.  Because he’s used to always being good at stuff, having memory not go well is really getting to him.  It is like it knocks his knees out from under him.

On my part I am having a harder time with seeing him get so butthurt and me recoiling at that than I am actually having with the memory issues.  The butthurt does not feel safe to me.  It feels exhausting to have him so upset by his mistakes.

There have definitely been moments early on in this process when I didn’t understand what was going on and I was not as patient as I could have been.  I don’t become a shrieking banshee, but my anxiety did increase sometimes and I frustrated easily, exasperated almost.  I remember a moment about ten months ago when he was trying to clean out our pantry.  He had just told me “I am going to leave space here for those extra plates”.  I thought that was a great idea and went about my chores too.  Then I came back less than 2 minutes later and walked into the pantry to put something away and noticed he had not done it that way, but was putting stuff on those shelves.  I said “Oh, you’ve changed your mind?  What about those extra plates you mentioned before?” And he looked at me and had no idea what I was talking about.  None, no recollection of the conversation or the plates.  He argued with me for a minute and then I showed him the plates.  He had no idea and was getting more mad about it.  There was a part of me that felt my frustration rise sharply and then something brought it right back down, saying “This is not normal, not even a little bit.  This is not intentional, there is something wrong here, medically.”  At that moment I felt something shift from frustration, fighting this and hoping this was all some weird transient behavior to realizing we had a medical problem and it is what it is but he needed help.

And yes, we went back to the dr right after that event.

giraffe

Question Ten – Tell Us About the Good Times

The marriage goes best when we are a team.  When we are functioning as equals, things go very well.  I would so rather he lead though.  I get decision fatigue a lot now.  When he had more energy and a better libido and could be aware of the things going on in our marriage, things were better.  He’s a little ostrich-like at the moment, burying his head in the sand, maybe some from medical and some from lost confidence.

Right now we are not equals.  I am the leader and much of the time, I am the one who has a greater grasp on reality because I remember it all.  Although I have noticed the stress of his health issues and my losing sleep over the idea of losing him to Alzheimers so early is taking its toll. My brain isn’t processing things like it should be, either, but I think it is sleep and stress related.  My dirty secret is that I need us to downshift into a slower pace of life as much as he does or I may end up with similar brain problems.  I feel it happening, from my own stress.

We are both very capable and smart people, in different ways.  We would talk for hours and hours about anything and everything.  We can’t do as much of that now as we could, but sometimes he wants to and so we do.  Things take him longer and sometimes require me to structure them for him.

We used to go on road trips, travel the world, snuggle and watch TV or snuggle and NOT watch TV.  We would read in bed, but he kind of stopped reading about a year ago.  We didn’t know why, but recently he picked up a book again.  Then he said now I can actually remember what each page says. 

We had so much laughter, I am a jokester and love to make things funny.  We don’t laugh as much as we used to right now.

We still laugh some though.  We have reached a place in this where we can laugh and play about the memory issues and he isn’t getting upset when I use a certain tone of voice I use when I am being over the top playful.  The other night we spent a half hour or more of playful banter back and forth between me exaggerating his memory issues and him exaggerating my current caretaking of him.  With me promising not to commit “elder abuse” when he can’t remember where his checkbook is and him teasing me about giving him sponge baths when he can’t remember where the bathroom is.  He acted mock-shocked by what I said, I acted mock-shocked by what he said and we had a great time, both of us laughing for a long time.  The next morning he came up behind me and cuddled up to me and said “last night was fun” and we laughed, because it wasn’t sexual at all, it was just connecting playful fun.  He’s great at that sort of cerebral playfulness, although with the confidence hit from the brain issues now I have to lead it to get us there. 

I often read on the forums about other people’s A&A techniques and think about how my husband often naturally used cocky, playful and somewhat arrogant statements naturally early on in our relationship and it really drew me closer to him.  I wish he could do more of that, now.

I used to be softer.  I used to be more happy.  I am definitely stressed and there’s a lot of pressure on me to handle life for both of us right now.  I don’t know how to correct that yet.

Ideally I would love to be that softer, calmer, happier woman who is less stressed but somehow who is still handling everything that needs to be handled for all six of us in our family until he is “back”.  I would either like to just shut down our sex life entirely so at least I can focus my energy on the life things that are needed until his energy is in a better place (which I don’t really want to do) OR have him step up and lead there (which I don’t have much control over and he may or may not be currently capable of doing). 

I would like to shift my career in a different direction and work part time.  For me to manage all of this and stay at my best without losing my ability to juggle it all, I think it would be a good move for us.  If we could both work part time and live more frugally, I would like to make that happen.

We've been considering for the last year the possibility of this being Alzheimers. Learning about Alzheimers, studying its impacts for so long and bracing for it has made me over the moon that it isn't.  At first I figured a sex life compared to that isn't something to fret over.  And I guess if we had 5 good years left before things went badly, that would make sense.  But this is hopefully just something we have to adjust to, albeit a struggle in many ways anyway.

I still want to live those years with him in the best way we can.  No matter if we have 5 years, 15 or 50.  I am struggling because forcing myself to want sex isn't working, but my attraction is waning at times.  I don't want it to be gone, at all.  I love him dearly.  But here we are.

Hannelore

"My brain isn’t processing things like it should be, either, but I think it is sleep and stress related.  My dirty secret is that I need us to downshift into a slower pace of life as much as he does or I may end up with similar brain problems.  I feel it happening, from my own stress."

This popped out at me. Have doctors ruled out environmental factors? Did you move overthe last 2-3 years? It sounds like he's improving over the past year, but I've never heard of someone forgetting what's on the previous page of a book, just from stress. Maybe I misunderstood what you mean by your brain not "processing" and "similar" forgetfulness. I've had some unusually stressful times leading to mental exhaustion, so maybe you just meant that, and not the same symptoms his doctors think stem from brain injury.

Your situation sounds very difficult, and you have my sympathy. Hopefully you can get some good advice for how to navigate your sex life as your husband heals

giraffe

That's my mistake.  I mispoke. 

At the height of this I pulled together all my energy and for a while, I functioned well. There seems to be a limit to how long I can maintain at that level and I am reaching the edge of that.

Lately I see it slipping.  It is different.  I don't forget ABOUT it like he does, at that level but I forget to DO it or that it needs to be done.  If someone reminds me or I see my to do list etc, I totally remember that I was supposed to do it and feel horrible for not having done it, for instance.  I am still reading (when I get the time) and I am trying to keep it together through lots of to do lists, delegating tasks and just deciding some things don't matter.

My dirty secret is that I need a break too, not just him needing it.  And I don't like deciding that some things don't matter.  It's an adjustment for me too.

I am having a harder time processing complicated concepts.  It is mental exhaustion.  I can't keep living like this forever or I will start having my own version of these kinds of things albeit not from the same reasons.  My counselor keeps saying it and I notice it too.

We have not moved, no exposure to toxins in his work or our lives that we know of. There was an event where he had a head injury that preceded this. The team of neurologists believe that combined with severe but previously undiagnosed sleep apnea, his brain was deprived of oxygen regularly, limiting his healing from the concussion. With treatment of the sleep apnea and cognitive rest now to heal after the injury, they have told us some people make a 50-70% recovery.  That's what I am crossing my fingers for.  There has been progress since he started the treatment for sleep apnea, but stuff can still be... weird.  He's on lots of vitamins, supplements and T injections.  He has had several CT scans, a couple of MRIs, a doppler scan for blood clots, a few trips in an ambulance when we thought it could be a stroke, vials and vials of blood taken and EEGs to make sure they aren't seizures.

But not Alzheimers is a good thing.  In fact, it's a HUGE thing and I feel a little silly for even complaining about my sex life when there's a light at the end of the tunnel that's not the Alzheimers Express.  I think that's part of my problem.  Even talking about my sex life here feels trivial of me.  But then again, it isn't.  I am confused about it.

Jen_Kay

This is a very complicated issue, but here's my 2 cents.  His medical issue is hopefully a temporary thing, so you need to understand that he is just not capable of being the exciting stud you want him to be at the moment, and stay connected sexually in a non-exciting but emotionally important way. But you also don't want to let this go on indefinitely. (confusing, I know)

At various times in our lives, Athol and I have each had medical issues that affected our sex lives. We have realized that some points in our lives call for un-inspiring but VERY important "stay connected sex". That's not to say that we let things go like this for years, however if I'm on bed rest during pregnancy #2, then I'm not going to be swinging from the chandeliers but I can stay sexually connected to him. Same goes when he had a heart attack- no jumper-cables-and-butter sex, but some very comforting and still good stay-connected sex. Not forever, just until the medical issue stabilizes.

giraffe

Thank you @Jen_Kay.  I hear you, I really do.

We are almost 18 months into when these problems began.  I don't have a clear timeline in my head of when sex went so downhill, but it's definitely been happening off and on for at least a year, with the last 6 months being near constant with an occasional uptick in energy and interest.  I am now at the point that I am just saying no sex because I feel worse after we try to have sex than I do if we don't try.  The apprehension of maybe making an effort that will likely flop is another energy drain for us right now.

How long is too long to let this go with just occasional connecting sexual experiences? And when we reach the "too long" point, then what happens if things aren't much better?  I don't want a sexless marriage and the man I married doesn't either.  I know that's in him somewhere, we were very sexual before. OTOH, this is a slow recovery, not expected to be quick.

He doesn't seem distressed at all that I am not trying to initiate and he's not trying to initiate or talk about sex.  Maybe he's a bit relieved right now that the pressure is off there.

Jen_Kay

giraffe said:

How long is too long to let this go with just occasional connecting sexual experiences? And when we reach the "too long" point, then what happens if things aren't much better?  I don't want a sexless marriage and the man I married doesn't either.  I know that's in him somewhere, we were very sexual before. OTOH, this is a slow recovery, not expected to be quick.

He doesn't seem distressed at all that I am not trying to initiate and he's not trying to initiate or talk about sex.  Maybe he's a bit relieved right now that the pressure is off there.

I can't imagine the stress this all is causing both of you. If I were a smart man whose wife was attracted to the smart, who then had something wrong with is brain (the center of the smart), and wasn't working at the job that exhibited his smart...my overall confidence would take a serious hit. He may be relieved to not have to respond to your initiations because so much of what he used to feel confident about is now in question. Plus the dynamic between you has changed in everyday life situations- you are more of the caretaker, breadwinner, and basically tell him he's wrong all the time (in a nice way- in relation to things he doesn't remember or did/didn't do because of something he doesn't remember...which is not something that can be helped at this point)

The more I think about your situation, the more I think you really need to be in local counseling or some type of coaching. This is not a sales pitch for our coaching, but an observation that if you don't get some one-on-one help with situations that come up, you're going to end up in a "death spiral" of no one initiates tonight for various reasons, so there's no sex, and therefore no one feels desired so they don't initiate tomorrow either, and on and on.  

MrsJon

Hi @giraffe ; Welcome to the forum! I am so glad you found your way here.

The situation you are in sounds very overwhelming. I really feel for you. The lack of sleep and stress (and you have a lot of stress) will produce the level of mental fog and exhaustion you are experiencing.

Jen Kay gave you some really solid advice above. The important thing now as you wait for your husband to heal, is to take care of you. You need to put on your oxygen mask first, then you can help your husband and create a path forward. You need someone on your side, in all this. Please consider either coaching or at least some type of counseling so you have a safety net for yourself. Someone in your corner you can lean on as you ride this out.

Read the Mindful Attraction Plan  by Athol Kay if you haven't already. I think it will help you see a way forward, even if it is a little at a time.
In the meantime eat well, and take care of yourself. Really think about getting some help.

Come back here if you have questions, post about your ups and downs. One step at a time @giraffe ; You can get through this. we are here for you.

giraffe

Thank you both.

I will continue personal counseling for me and may increase the frequency.  Things have been stressful and I want to get ahead of any longer term issues.  He sees a neuropsychologist right now as part of all this treatment.  They also put him on welbutrin in February, to try to ward of depression that comes from these issues and make sure depression isn't causing the memory issues.  It seemed to help his energy and focus, though his mood was really never depressed, so they kept him on it.

Can you explain what you mean by death spiral?  I am not familiar with that term in this context.

My husband just accepted a contract gig in his field that starts next week.  I am relieved to a small extent and a little apprehensive.  We had just gotten into a routine of managing things as they are and having that go mostly well, except for sex.  This will create more stress for him and I am afraid to see him slide backwards when we have made small progress since the layoff.  It is not as intense as previous work, so maybe not as bad as I am fearing.

My husband is a type of scientist.  This job will be mostly mentoring and managing a team of recent graduates who are junior scientists in his field vs actually doing as much of the work himself. So maybe it won't actually cause a backwards slide.  They recruited him hard, which was a great confidence boost.  They had two interviews scheduled back to back as soon as they found out he was available and an offer in his inbox within 24 hours after the second interview.  He feels valued and wanted in that way and flattered. He also said to me today though that he is afraid they will find out he isn't as capable as they think he is.  I think that's silly because they had him take a bunch of HR IQ type tests before interviewing (the tests were last week, so his current functioning is very apparent on it), they also read a lot of his published work with a lot of them emailing him to ask questions before the last interview and they seemed very into him (professionally), so I think that's just the confidence hit shining through.

@Jen_Kay you are right about his huge drop in confidence.  A few months ago his youngest child (older teen) even told me that he thought his Dad would rather lose both his legs than have his brain not be working right.  His son is correct.  It is a nightmare for him and very difficult.  He does take every memory error and reminder as me telling him he is wrong.  I don't mean it to feel that way, even a little bit.  But he can't help but feel that way right now.

The job will probably be good for him overall between having the peer interaction, others holding him in such high esteem and him getting to test himself under the new conditions.  I am probably going to have to pick up more slack at home now and that I think is what I am most apprehensive about.

Jen_Kay

giraffe said:

Can you explain what you mean by death spiral?  I am not familiar with that term in this context.

My husband is a type of scientist.  This job will be mostly mentoring and managing a team of recent graduates who are junior scientists in his field vs actually doing as much of the work himself. So maybe it won't actually cause a backwards slide.  They recruited him hard, which was a great confidence boost.  They had two interviews scheduled back to back as soon as they found out he was available and an offer in his inbox within 24 hours after the second interview.  He feels valued and wanted in that way and flattered. He also said to me today though that he is afraid they will find out he isn't as capable as they think he is.  I think that's silly because they had him take a bunch of HR IQ type tests before interviewing (the tests were last week, so his current functioning is very apparent on it), they also read a lot of his published work with a lot of them emailing him to ask questions before the last interview and they seemed very into him (professionally), so I think that's just the confidence hit shining through.

As far as "death spiral", what I mean is that couples get locked into a pattern of no one initiating, therefore no one having sex, no one feeling wanted or sexy, no one feeling connected emotionally or physically, because no one wants to take the chance of breaking that deadlock. After all, it could all go wrong, or not live up to the expectations of past experiences.  You are locked in a death spiral of nobody making a move as your sex life spirals downward to its demise.

Being a mentor to junior scientists might be one of the best things for his self esteem in a work environment- we hired you because you are the expert and can guide the newbies in the right direction. And hopefully on a daily basis they'll have questions and problems that he can help them with, which will be a little self esteem boost each time.

Good for you for taking care of yourself with counseling! What does your therapist say about the lack of sex and how you can approach the situation?

Okay one more thing...is there a way for you to delegate some of the at-home tasks to other people (not you or hubby)? Would someone deep cleaning your home once a week be affordable/helpful? Can you hire a local teen to rake the leaves? Are there commitments on your schedule that you can drop that are just not a priority right now?

dalef

Can the kids help out around the house? 

HappyTrail

Jen_Kay said
As far as "death spiral", what I mean is that couples get locked into a pattern of no one initiating, therefore no one having sex, no one feeling wanted or sexy, no one feeling connected emotionally or physically, because no one wants to take the chance of breaking that deadlock. After all, it could all go wrong, or not live up to the expectations of past experiences.  You are locked in a death spiral of nobody making a move as your sex life spirals downward to its demise.

Yes, this ^^^^^. I'm guilty of it so I can confirm how real and accurate it is. Our situation is much less complicated than yours (my heart goes out to you) but we had a number of medically-related hardships all at once early this yr. My wife is very blunt with words and tone. A few denials run off my back. After a couple weeks worth and with harsh tone by her, I basically say screw you (pun intended) and stop initiating. The spiral begins. We become even more disconnected. Soon initiations are not even on the radar - just don't care - not worth the effort. Before you know it a year goes by. If you think maintaining a sex life is hard, try resurrecting one. Don't go there if you can help it. 

giraffe

@dalef, The kids help out some.  They have their own lives, jobs and activities.  All are teens or very young adults.  My oldest has been doing the family grocery shopping about half the time and running errands for me and cooking some meals, my youngest has been cleaning lightly (sweeping, mopping, dusting, garbage) and makes sure that pets are fed.  His kids aren’t around as much so their tasks are less.  

@Jen_Kay We got rid of our housecleaning service when he was laid off.  I probably need to re-engage a housekeeper every week or two with him going back to work.

My counselor and I have not addressed our sex life much.  We have more addressed me taking care of my own needs and not forgetting they exist, still getting needed me time, stress management and taking care of myself while still meeting kids’ needs.  I think I’ve brought it up once or twice, but for the most part that was when we were very worried that this was going to be degenerative and so there was more conversation about patience and how both of our fears/stress levels are impacting our libidos.

I have scaled back my schedule a ton since a year ago.  In fact, I think it’s getting close to time to add some things back to my schedule, volunteer things I used to do and spending time doing things with friends and family.  I have been pretty focused on our immediate household for long enough but I can wait until he transitions back to work.

I would love to have a deep clean done in the house every week.  We have a yard service that isn’t always consistent about showing up, but I have not had time to find a different service.  With him working I can put some money there now.

@HappyTrail OK, I think I am understanding the death spiral definition and I don't want that, for sure.  I don’t think we are there yet.  I get a great big kiss usually when I got home and often a couple of ass grabs on the back patio or in the kitchen as I come in the door.  We have good affection and warmth still, but I can see how it could get out of control quickly if it becomes a standoff.  We fell asleep snuggling last night, my hand on his chest.  We talked about sex before bed and he said it’s like being a little hungry but not hungry enough to go to the kitchen and make a meal or dig through the fridge.  He confirmed that knowing that I don’t want sex right now feels like less chance of disappointing me and less pressure.  

Is that a way people end up in a death spiral, even if for the moment it feels like a relief?

Husband3point0

What's your sleeping pattern look like?  Too long/short?  Interrupted?  Not feeling rested despite plenty of pillow time?  Trouble going down? 

Your H has serious issues that obviously require a doctor. But, many of your symptoms are classical sleep deprivation. Sleep deprivation can exacerbate other issues very quickly and can cause personal 'death spirals', similar to what others are describing. 

Although we, as a society, talk about sleep like it's rest for your entire body, it's virtually all used as rest for your brain. Your brain sounds tired. 

Jen_Kay

giraffe said:

I get a great big kiss usually when I got home and often a couple of ass grabs on the back patio or in the kitchen as I come in the door.  We have good affection and warmth still, but I can see how it could get out of control quickly if it becomes a standoff.  We fell asleep snuggling last night, my hand on his chest.  We talked about sex before bed and he said it’s like being a little hungry but not hungry enough to go to the kitchen and make a meal or dig through the fridge.  He confirmed that knowing that I don’t want sex right now feels like less chance of disappointing me and less pressure.  

Is that a way people end up in a death spiral, even if for the moment it feels like a relief?

This is a better scenario than when people just altogether stop communicating with each other about sex and stop having the urge to even kiss / ass grab / snuggle. Not ideal, doesn't mean you should ignore the issue, but better.

giraffe

My brain *IS* tired.  I was just thinking about that, ironically, as I tried to fall asleep last night.  I am physically tired, emotionally tired and logistically tired.  Then I started wondering if logistically tired is a thing.  I think it is, it feels like it is.

I sleep 7-8 hours a night when working, including the half hour to an hour it takes me to actually fall asleep, sometimes closer to 90 minutes.  Very rarely it’s hours.  Weekends and holidays I stay up a little later, but usually sleep a couple of hours later.  There’s a certain window in early sleep for me that if a noise happens or a movement and I get woken up, I am awake for quite a while after.

Insomnia runs in my family and the older we get, the worse it gets if my parents and grandparents are any indication.  I have some routines before bed that help me fall asleep – I have a certain playlist that I use.  If I ever accidentally played it in the car while driving, I just might fall asleep because my brain knows those sounds mean sleeptime.  I don’t use electronics for a while before falling asleep, for the same reason.  It makes a difference for me.  I’ve used these strategies since I was a teenager, including having a cassette tape of music that helped me fall asleep back in those days.  I have always been more of a night owl than a morning lark and I struggle to get out of bed early.

I have a job that lets me sleep later in the morning, which is good.  My Husband is pretty good about not waking me in the mornings when he is working and has to be up earlier.  Sometimes it happens and when it does I have a hard time falling back asleep. 

When I had a job that required me to show up at 6am many years ago (2005-ish), I had to go to bed by 8pm to be up by 4am.  Doing that was hard, being a night owl.  I developed a dependence on otc sleep aids during that job, so now I don’t touch anything with PM in the title or that is meant to help you fall asleep.  Not otc, nor rx.  It was probably a month or two before I realized I was dependent on them. Kicking those and getting back on a normal sleep routine was very hard.  Instead when I sought a new job I looked for ones with working hours that are better for my sleep cycle.  That made a huge difference.

My brain does not get rest during the day.  This is my fault, I know.  I am constantly on, scanning the horizon for problems and trying to pick up the slack so things don't fall apart. 

This may be nighttime sleep related, it really might.  It feels more daytime brain buzzing actively all the time and getting tired than nighttime deprivation TO Me, but maybe an outside perspective is needed when you are sleep deprived to see it clearly. 

Tonight I actually have a night off.  No kids, no kids’ friends or significant others, no pets, only husband and I.  My kids are taking fall break with the dogs to a relative’s house and his are with their mom.  So maybe we will have an amazing night of a nice quiet dinner and the amazing S word: SLEEP.  One can hope. 

giraffe

@Jen_Kay I am glad to hear that we aren't as bad as it could be.

This weekend we had sex twice.  He started to initiate on Saturday and then stopped, denying he wanted sex, he said he just wanted to touch my body but was not in the mood, which was confusing to me.  It turned out he was afraid I didn't want sex because I've stopped trying to initiate.  In fact it occurred to me that he seems afraid of making me unhappy right now, when all I want is for things to be normal.

I drew him back out a few hours later and we talked about it and I playfully made it ok for him to want sex, because goodness knows I do, and we naturally just kind of got back into it.  And the next night it happened naturally between us without any stops or starts.  It was pretty good between us, maintenance sex for sure but enjoyable for both.

He started work this week and things seem to be going well.  He was on edge last week. He was super critical of others at times this weekend and late last week.  Sometimes in the past he has had a streak of being highly critical of others' small mistakes, mispronunciations, math errors and saying the wrong thing.  He called me out in front of guests this weekend on Friday for using the wrong word and I put my foot down about it later, privately.  His kids have expressed feeling super criticized by Dad in the past, that's their biggest complaint about their Dad.  His son got angry when he did it again for the first time in a long time to him on Friday too, so he got pushback from all of us on the same day.  And, to his credit, Friday was the last I saw of that behavior. 

giraffe

Today has been a shock.

Tonight my husband and I went to go out to dinner, but stopped by a couple of errands on the way.  He left his phone in the car – even said “Yeah I will just leave it charging” as he walked away, I stayed in the car for one of the errands and it buzzed while he was inside one location so I glanced at it.  Someone said “She will do that for you if I tell her to.”  It could have been nothing but I decided to open their previous texts because it seemed a bit much.

In it was a text conversation with a male friend of his.  The male friend was telling my husband that he has a woman in town ready to do whatever he wants, who is under his control and will do a,b,c and x,y,z at his command at any time.  Very graphic.  My whole body tightens up on reading the first few texts.  In it this male friend asks my husband to come over tonight, sends her a picture of this girl, calls her ugly, says she is his slave and will do really graphic degrading acts and “you know, the usual choke, slap, spank, felch, suck on command”.

So he and my husband text for 27 texts about this, with my husband saying he can’t come over today but maybe tomorrow during the day.  Say WHAT?!?!?!

I screen shot these conversations and forward them to myself, then delete the screenshots from his phone in the hopes of digesting them later, on my own time from my phone and not blowing this up until I am ready.  Just as I am trying to delete them from his history he comes flying out of the store saying “they need to see my phone, can I have it please?” They don’t need to see his phone, his memory reminded him of this conversation and he wants to erase it and we both know it. He grabs at it with force and I hold onto it and simply say “No.”   And then I ask him after a good 20 seconds of a standoff (therefore he KNOWS he is caught) “What the hell are you doing?”

He sinks into the driver seat of the car and I just kind of cannot speak after that.  He is rambling and I don’t know what he’s saying except that this was just talk, just playing around, just two guys talking.  I am just sitting there stunned.  I shoot back at him that he is trying to say this is “locker room talk” and he scoffs at me and says Ouch.  He says he thinks the girl isn’t even real, she’s just a picture from the internet.  Then he uses the defense of “You saw her picture, no way I would go f* her, she’s not attractive”.  As if that doesn’t sound like the same locker room talk…

I make him take me home and I do a search on the phone number and find which male friend of his it is and do some checking.  It is a guy, it is someone he knew from the singles days.  I can’t find much about him except on Facebook and Linkedin. 

My husband is swearing up and down he was just trying to see how far he could go verbally and when this guy would tell him No, you can’t do that or something.  None of that makes any damn sense to me.

So now he’s running around cleaning the house like a madman.  Every few minutes I hear “I’m going to fill and empty the dishwasher.”, then a few minutes later “I’m going to run some laundry, would you like a drink, I can bring you something? Are you hungry?” and most recently “Do you want to watch (my favorite show)? I’ll put it on, bring you some popcorn?”.  And he keeps stuttering when he talks, which normally he doesn’t do.  He has apologized… “this was stupid of me, I wasn’t thinking

He’s caught in something.  Either the world’s stupidest “locker room talk” or he’s cheating or planning to.

Do men actually talk like this?  Or is this proof of an affair in the planning stages or maybe even more?

I checked phone records dating back to March.  He and this guy haven’t talked except 2 random exchanges of 3 texts or less since then, until today.  All his other records look normal.  I had him put his phone in private mode and found some pictures of himself having sex with other girls in his private folder (7 photos), almost all of girls blowing him and one of him going down on a girl.  The dates on them are older than our relationship and they are in his apartment before we moved in together.

I am in shock right now.  Not sure what else to say.  I believe there’s a possibility this was a stupid, stupid thing that was all talk.  I also believe there’s a possibility that this is more than just talk.  I don’t know which is true right now.

MissD

That is a terrible shock!

So sorry you are going through this.