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Comments
Now, on to business.
What might have also contributed to the second berating was the fact that I mentioned some recent public shunning behavior towards me by the wife and teenage daughter of H's male friend, let's call him Mr. F. I really dislike Mr. F and think he is baaaaad news for my marriage. So I randomly saw Mrs. F and F'sDD a local Halloween party last night, said hello and was completely ignored. Ouch! H triangulates against me with this F family constantly. H is pissed to the highest level of pisstivity that I refuse to go to events where I know F and family will be present. Why would I socialize with these assholes?? Recently I excused myself from going on a weekend road trip to the beach because H informed me they would coincidentally be staying at the same hotel (which felt like a lie but I digress). I also skipped a work dinner they attended-- did I mention H moved our family across the country weeks ago in part so he could work with Mr. F? Now that we live here I finally see how it is. Gross. Anyway. Deep down H knows his words against me to Mrs. F behind my back is what started her hating on me and giving me the silent treatment all of a sudden. My mention of that dynamic inflamed the situation, but I felt it was necessary to speak out my truth that the friend's family are not these innocent bystanders to our drama. Damn triangulation. Ugh!
Mention F and family when they come up and H starts gaslighting me about them? DHV or no? Because I think it would be a DLV to tiptoe around an issue when something relevant to our family plans needs to be discussed. Not sure how to frame that one.
1. Yes. He got mad at me for bringing it up and DARVO'd. About the birthday he said "you would be crazy to expect me to plan anything for your birthday with the way you act." (How I act? It was out of left field and he later denied having said that at all See #2.) About the anniversary, he ignored me and later on said "You didn't plan anything either! You haven't planned anything for me in years!" (False.)
2. Two different mental health professionals who sat down with him in recent years have diagnosed him as having narcissistic tendencies secondary to childhood trauma, and furthermore, it is a very common tendency for people in his specific profession. Additionally, he was raised by 2 NPD parents, and has internalized their dysfunction as his own sense of normal in many respects; his mother was predatory towards him, and until very recently he had never truly committed to real in depth therapy for it. The main hallmarks are lack of empathy-- though he can do fake empathy to impress someone when he needs to-- in longer term interactions though he cannot hide it. Everything is always all about him. Triangulation. Lying. Bizarre denials. Selective forgetting of things he just said that directly contradict what he is saying in the current moment. Gaslighting. Delusions of grandeur. He is not, however, full blown NPD -- we know this because he has some fleeting awareness at times but it comes and goes in waves, and in his profession, which attracts N-types, he is a leader. Other narcissists love the guy-- such as his friend F the EA partner (or worse.)
3. Yes, it walks, talks and quacks like an EA.
4. Brace yourselves. I found an old text on his phone from a few months ago from H to his friend F saying "I love you" along with words of support for some marital problems F was having about convincing F's wife to make the move to where we all currently live. H denies there is anything wrong with that because H notes that I say I love you to a couple of my girlfriends who I have known since childhood. (Not the same). Dudes have only been friends since 2008. And most importantly they are DUDES, not ladies-- entirely different social rules and taboos apply. He insists they are just really close friends which sounds like the oldest story in the world to me by now. Did I really just type that out? Yes, yes I did.
5. Correct on all points, @Cowboy. I have stopped being an emotional support because I am so pissed about having been induced under false pretenses to make this cross country move, and disgusted by his recent acting out.
Wow, there is a lot more going on than just an overweight wife and an inattentive husband.
His "friend of friends" --
I completely agree that saying "I love you" to another man is odd. I can't imagine ever saying that to one of my buddies, even my best friend.
Can you give us some more details on any other, umm, very "friendly" things they do? Do they touch each other a lot? Go off by themselves?
From my limited personal experience with people whose door swings both ways...they are often reluctant to admit that, even to themselves. It's easy to do, I think, in part because you can spend a lot of time with someone and/or do some otherwise intimate stuff with somebody and just write it off as "being good friends." I actually had a conversation with a girl last week who told me she and her good friend liked to kiss and grab each others' boobs. She said they were just being "good friends" and not acting like lesbians/bi's because everything they did was above their waists!
The other point I'll make is that, unfortunately, affairs are like icebergs: you only see the 11% of what's really going on. Even if you're only seeing a lot of creepy man-love texts, there might be a lot more going on that you don't know about. I think it would be worthwhile to investigate this more, but don't.get.caught.
Prickliness with Mr. F's family--
It's no surprise to me that there's a lot of friction going on with this other family. As Howl suggested above, maybe they didn't want to move, either. Maybe your husband told them some bullshit story about how this was *your* idea. The most obvious one, though, is that they probably know YOU don't like THEM. You keep avoiding doing things with them, your body language probably signals your distaste, and given your H's track record, there's a good chance he's told them. Most people aren't that stupid, they're going to figure it out.
I know it's hard, but I would try to put out the open palm to Mrs. F, and see if you all can get along better. As Howl said, you guys probably have a lot more in common than you think.
Resentment--
I can't really tell why from your posts, but your husband has a shitload of resentment going on towards you. It's unmistakable. Comments like "why do you deserve a birthday present" reek of it. Maybe he's just a total dick, but for your sake, I think it would be worthwhile to find out why he's so upset at you. Even if he starts to gaslight you or berate you, I think it would be a gain just to know what kind of bug has crawled up his ass and died.
Edit:
Can you give us more details on this move to another place, coordinated with his special life-mate? I suspect this might explain a lot.
Knowledge is power.
Good luck as you MAP for yourself
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Fuck Culture. Live your life - Beatrice
In short, she believes whatever bullshit F or H tells her. She is a SR2 SAHM approaching 50, and F bitches about her constantly. She bankrupts for status, is anxious, etc. F blames the need for the job change on FW's spending and her "forcing" him (I know, lol) to take a job in an undesirable area for that job market because it was a nice, high cost of living place to live. She has no idea about the creepy EA vibes. The recent move was a huge financial gain for their family and a definite career boost for F and H, too, though the money may be about the same for our family. Bottom line: FW is definitely not a positive person who will help me achieve the objectives of my MAPping. Good riddance!
Apart from the ILY text I found (hell yes, I look through my H's phone), there are no smoking guns that they are having a PA per se. I will of course keep looking surreptitiously. They used to go on a guys trip every 18 months or so meeting up in a random big city doing Beta stuff together like going to nice restaurants and concerts, and sharing a hotel room-- sometimes another guy would come along. Having typed this out just now and rereading it to myself-- uh, like it reads like a damn date! I don't have anything concrete to go on beyond that. No brokeback mountain stuff that I can detect at this point but, again, nothing would surprise me.
On resentment-- clearly I have it towards him, too. Professionals have explained it to us as "Transference." It's a well-documented phenomenon. When one's own mother is a predator like my H's was, unless one is super self-aware and does the personal work OF COURSE it is going to come back some day as inexplicable negative emotions towards his wife, especially when the wife becomes a Mother herself. (I've seen untreated Transference in loads of threads here where folks just can't figure out what is going on with one of the spouses.)
What's my role in this?? Hand on my heart, I'm asking myself what have I done to deserve this treatment? And it's clear that I am fat around my belly right now, and I refuse to hang out with F's family who suddenly ignore me and who are Vampirish anyway, but legitimately I have my shit together across pretty much all of the metrics articulated in Athol's MAP book. My issue is I have been a Laid, Maid and Trayed Nice Girl who has not asked for nearly enough and he does not value that for which he does not have to work.
Thank you! I am well-positioned, yes, and know the legal optics of the situation. The 2 states' laws play out about the same, which is to say Lose/Lose! The law and finance stuff is my own personal wheelhouse -- we have a community property agreement. I run all of the family finances and know where his skeletons are buried, too. This piece is well in hand. Divorce would make both of us less financially well off as it would to probably 99% of people, not to mention the life-altering horror of it for our 3 sweet little kids. I know he really does not want that because he knows I would be in a more powerful position than him given what I know and if we split I would have much less to lose uh, reputationally, than him. If he tried any N-person typical high-conflict nonsense on me, I would have reputational leverage.
Yes, ma'am, I totally see that. Rocking the proverbial boat as I MAP will not always be easy, but I will not and cannot keep living like this. I'm grateful for your inspiring theads and comments here. Makes me feel a lot less alone in dealing with a spouse with mental health challenges. Thank you!!
i hope he gets his head out of his posterior so you two can enjoy a mutually edifying marriage
this is a pro-marriage site so try everything you can ... but if he doesnt get it together and start treating you well, you might find yourself needing to eject yourself and your kids ... you don't want them growing up with a horrific model of what married life should be like
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Fuck Culture. Live your life - Beatrice
The postpartum period is difficult (hi, same boat here), but it's also a great opportunity to meet other moms, especially since you're in a new area. It can be hit-or-miss, but it may be worth putting yourself out there and connecting with someone new who is also dealing with the usual stressors of motherhood. There may also be "baby and me" type exercise classes that will help you get fit and bond with your babe. You have a lot of major life changes going on in addition to the relationship issues. Look outward and work on the things over which you have full agency.
It's your choice whether you choose to live with a NPD husband, but I worry for your kids, that they're growing up with a very warped perception of how men/daddies are supposed to act. They don't understand their father is mentally ill, they don't understand that his actions are not normal.
It might be better for your kids to have some distance from their father, and for you to present them with other male role models (not necessarily your dates, but Scout leaders, etc.) Only you can make that decision.
I'd like to give you more support/advice, but your posts set off some strong triggers for me — my last husband didn't have NPD, but behaved very much as if he did. I ended up divorced, and am having a hard time understanding why anyone would want to stay with a man like this. But that's my road, you have your own. May it be smoother than mine.
Enneagram 5w4. I'm researching what that means, before designing t-shirt art about it.
"I feel no shame in making lavish use of the strongest muscles, namely male ones (but my own strongest muscle is dedicated to the service of men - noblesse oblige). I don't begrudge men one whit of their natural advantages as long as they respect mine. I am not an unhappy pseudomale; I am female and like it that way." RAH
The kids compared notes about their days and Oldest was upset when he saw the photos of what fun new things Middle did. He mentioned his disappointed feeling to H-- if H were healthier, he could see that him manipulating Oldest into staying home while dressing it up as Oldest's "choice" was not great parenting. Pretty sure that message was received on some level.
Yesterday morning, H came into my bedroom as the kids were getting ready for school and we had the following exchange:
H: "How was BigCity?"
Me: "Do you actually even care about my answer to that question?"
H: "Yes, of course I do. I'm sorry."
Me: "You know the neighbors heard you through the bathroom vents when you yelled 'I hope your mother gets the help she needs' and they also heard what the kids said and they heard me crying."
H: "You're lying. You lie so much about so many things."
Me: "Don't make the kids late to school again. You should leave now."
I'm sorry does not even begin to cut it though, obviously. Really pleasantly surprised he even said it in the first place given his specific set of issues, though it means nothing. He's acting desperate.
I decided I did not feel like being awoken in the morning and being berated and/or accused of lying again so I spent last night at my parents' new house with the baby and slept in until 7:45am. I have a call out to my therapist as to how to proceed from here. Told my mom everything that happened and she is really shocked and supportive. H took this recent escalation to a new level. I can't expose my children to this. Need a plan. I'm seeing that me leaving the house results in good treatment from him and a calm situation for the kids.
Last night I texted H to tell him where the baby and I would be staying. H showed up at my parents' house with the 2 older kids and a peace offering (or something?) for me of Thai iced tea and some spring rolls. We all watched the baby try to take his first steps and clapped for him-- it was a sweet moment.
Leaving makes things better.
him: "i'm sorry"
you <pause, then calmly>: "that's a big step for you to say that. it would mean more if you would say what things exactly you're sorry for so that i know that you know exactly the things that you did that were wrong. but absent that, i am not so interested in you being sorry as i am in you being *better* and treating me with the simple human dignity and respect that i deserve - maybe one day you'll elevate that to actually treating me as if you truly love me ... wouldnt hurt if you gave some thought to how you'll do a better job being a role model in front of the kids too. but baby steps. "
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Fuck Culture. Live your life - Beatrice
You need to emotionally DISENGAGE to the point that you don't really care about what he thinks or says. You won't feel the need to say anything at all. When you truly stop mentally orbiting, he will feel it. It will be profound.
maybe lady edith can articulate it with improved brevity
even if she doesnt say it, she can feel validated internally - sometimes just being witnessed is enough to give us strength to act
as i am reading it, the situation is such that there is a risk of internalizing vastly substandard behaviour - i am overweight, so i deserve to be treated with less than human dignity ... once i lose the weight / get fit, i can start to demand proper treatment ... well, i say 'fuck that noise'
in a way, i am seeing it much the same as i see the advice we give guys who's wife's withhold sex - what do they have to lose by standing up for themslevs? she'll cut off sex? she's already done that and they havent died - so start to live the change you want to see ... what is he gonna do, be mean to her? he already is, but she survives ... so she can stand up for herself to demand proper treatment ... if it upsets him so far as he files for divorce, he's doing her a favor ... if it wakes him up, they can get on the path to a healthy marriage ... no, maybe she doesnt (yet) have the SR to make him see that she believes she has options of other men - but she DOES have options as to how to live her life and protect her kids ...
if he was a risk for physical violence, it would be a whole other ballgame ... but his emotional abuse is really just as intolerable .... he has to want to change - something has to drive him in that direction ... might as well be her showing that she has a backbone to demand minimal human dignity/respect
just my 2 cents
i feel for ya, edith ... strength and courage!
onward!
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Fuck Culture. Live your life - Beatrice