About this site. . .
You have found an archive of the MMSL Forum, which shut down on December 27, 2016. You can continue these discussions on this forum
Categories
- 10.9K All Categories
- 23 The New Forum 101
- 8 Moments of Zen
- 915 Introduce Yourself
- 671 911 Relationship ER
- 2.7K Married Life
- 2.1K Running the MAP
- 743 1. Fitness, Food and Health
- 96 2. Money and Material Stuff
- 304 3. Displaying High Value - Men
- 728 3. Displaying High Value - Women
- 200 4. Building Relationship Comfort
- 52 5. Personality and Preferences
- 406 6. High-Energy Sex
- 513 Singles
- 45 Faith and Spirituality
- 1.3K Off Topic
TwelveRubies' Triage
TwelveRubies
New EnglandMember Posts: 85
Hello all! I am so grateful to have found MMSL. It has validated so many experiences in my struggling marriage, and my first week of MAP has proven to be a much needed structure for me. I look forward to participating here!
1) I am 27, he is 25. We married about 2 and a half years ago, and were together for about a year before that. We had been close friends for a few years when we started dating. I would say at our ideal weights, we are both 7-8. When we started dating, we both gained some weight. I started getting in shape a year ago, lost the weight and built some muscle. His weight is still a problem, one that he is aware of, but has always said that he doesn’t have the time to do much about. I very recently expressed that I would like him to seriously make it a priority, and he has started lifting, an effort that I very much notice and am grateful for.
2) I don’t believe we have any physical medical issues. I have asked him to consider getting his testosterone levels to get an idea of the baseline, but he shot that down pretty quick because he sometimes experiences vasovagal syncope during blood draws. Can’t blame him. I have never been on hormonal BC. However, I am going to start very soon, to try to address some very painful periods that natural methods have not satisfactorily treated. I’m also terrified to bring kids into our marriage now, and my current method (fertility awareness method, using barriers during fertile times) is extremely effective if practiced with rigor...but I am just SO tired from the effort and my anxiety around doing this method perfectly certainly is one hurdle in our intimate life.
3) I knew this prior to marriage, but he had $128k of student loans. Neither of our parents sat us down at 18 before we chose to go to expensive colleges and gave us the reality talk, and we didn’t do the math ourselves. Such stupid kids, we were. I am very blessed to have parents who were able to pay for my tuition. I don’t hold it against him that he has this debt and we have attacked it together. Proud to say we have paid it down by $48k in the 2.5 years we’ve been married! But, he does spend a lot more loosely than I do, and this gives me some anxiety, as well as a few bitter thoughts. Somehow, I’ve been able to mostly just give this issue up to God, because I think we have bigger problems. We both have well-paying jobs for being just a few years out of college, and we should be able to pay the rest of the loans in 4 years. He realizes that the fact that he spends more, yet the debt is his, is a problem. The other issue is the weight. This one I do feel upset about. He was at a really healthy weight when we started dating, and put on 50 lbs over our relationship/marriage. I want to feel like he wants to keep himself attractive to me. I also want to have him not die from a heart attack at 50, which is where he is headed if this very recent gym thing doesn’t last.
4) Our Critical Moment of Neglect is more long-term than a moment. He went through several anxiety-inducing circumstances beginning when we got engaged up through March of this year. During these times, his insecurities were triggered and he was not there for me logistically/emotionally. Probably the most painful memories came from our engagement. Our moms were very involved and there was family drama (no surprise), and he did not take my side (he took his mom’s), provide emotional support, or take care of logistics. The one thing he did (print invites) he did wrong (spelled my mom’s name wrong) and I had to fix it. Routinely, he would only take me seriously if I started crying. I am a calm, reserved, and very logical person who only cries when things are beyond bad, so to have to be driven to hysterics to be taken seriously was an incredibly deep wound.
After marriage, he began a very stressful job. At the worst point, every day he would come home and vent to me for an hour and I would try to cheer him up. Any concerns that I had in my own life, even small things, he brushed aside and dismissed, because he was so caught up with his own issues that he had no brain space for me. I am not a very emotional person, while he is, (well, of course we all are emotional creatures, but I mean that I do not experience many emotions intensely, and I have a history of suppressing feelings to accommodate others), so to be the sole bearer of his intense feelings for so long was utterly exhausting.
5) No outside sexual sources. He used to struggle with porn, but has had success recently (about once every 6 weeks, with the goal being never).
0
Comments
H was very patient and never wanted to force anything on me during this time. This was the one area where he did support me tremendously, because I felt like such a failure. However, his patience, fear of pressuring me, and feelings of being incapable to arouse me also established some very passive behavior on his part. Strong initiation on his part is a huge issue now, and I can’t fault him for that. A year into our marriage he told me he thought that the reason for my drop in desire was that I didn’t feel supported emotionally. At first I didn’t believe him, but soon I realized he was right. So then, we started getting more serious about fixing our emotional issues. But of course you can’t just put sex on a shelf (well I guess some people do but I didn’t feel that was an option to me, else I become a Bad Christian Wife…) so we continued to rack up unsatisfying experience after unsatisfying experience. Sometimes I would have desire, but he has PE (always has, even with high frequency), and he’s not a round 2 kind of guy. Lots of stopping/starting, no thrusting, extremely frustrating for me. Add to that, PIV was the only thing that felt good to me, and he didn’t want me to mastubate, (that has recently changed) so there weren’t really any enjoyable alternatives.
The root of this was a mom who flew off the handle at me and sometimes hit me when I was very young, and a dad who did nothing to stop her. My defense mechanism was just to be a rock and take it. I never said stop, never said no. Growing up, this looked like putting my needs last to make sure everyone else was happy, and not acknowledging any of my negative feelings, like sadness, anger, or loneliness. I grew to be my mother’s parent, listening to and solving her problems. My relationship with her is what primed me to be a doormat in my current marriage, because my husband is similar to her in the sense that their emotional cauldron is always bubbling over, so to speak.
I should point out that about a year and a half ago, I started inadvertently MAPping, without knowing what that was. Coincidentally, my first step was getting myself to the gym! I look forward to writing down and posting an official MAP.
I should also note that everything in this triage is stuff I've spoken to my husband about. There are no issues I am aware of that I have kept secret from him.
"We love boardgames, cooking, trying new restaurants, hosting dinner parties, we have a similar sense of humor, overlapping taste in music, and very similar life values and goals. We have amazingly complementary skill sets. He is a dreamer, passionate (when healthy), gets things started, brings people together, life of the party (when healthy)."
Now, does that sound like an Alpha male?
You go on with your MAP. Given your age, Freedom, and passion, you should have no trouble achieving your goals. But you can't make your hubby MAP. The best you can do is lead by example. And even with then, a switch has go off in your hubbys head.
Do not get frustrated, this MAP is about you.
I do have to give him props, though, for making a strong effort to get back into lifting the past two weeks at my request.
Insecurity and passive stuff is not Alpha. Chef Bobby Flay has traits of Alpha, and he spends most of his time in the kitchen. It's not necessarily about what you do.
The red flag is/was your comment of "when healthy". It come off as an excuse. I.e. He could be the next bill gates, if he just set his mind to it.
Loosing weight (getting in shape) is a good barometer for MAPing, because it involves action, long term goals, and most importantly, accountability. It appears your husband is on the right path.
I see a lot of myself in your husband (last decade). What really got me going is male friends who held me accountable. Something broke around the house "don't call the plumber/contractor here's how you do it and I'll help". After a while you build up enough Alpha you can do most projects around the house yourself. And yes, YouTube how to videos are your best friend.
I have started hearing him talk more positively about his insecurities lately. I told him about the concept of holding frame and he told me about one instance this weekend while he was away with friends where he did that successfully and one where he failed, and he identified what he should have done instead.
I really believe that as he stops letting insecurity be the excuse, he's going to be really awesome, really fast ☺
Put back on course via a 'One Hour Call' with Athol. Seriously worth 10 times the cost, but don't tell him that....
“Between stimulus and response, there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom.” - Victor Frankl
I frequently pass out during blood work. I just make sure I lay down before they start drawing my blood.
Why did you ask him to get his testosterone checked? Does he have low T symptoms?
Symptoms checklist
The Secret to Why Your Wife Doesn't Initiate; Top Two Reasons Your Husband Doesn't Want Sex; Dominance-It's Not a Bad Word; Top 10 Ways to Increase Testosterone Naturally
I have simple solution to this and it has worked wonders for me, and that is 'grounding', it's a very powerful concept and very simple to do (I found this webpage that explains it well, but I'm sure there are plenty more if you google). I'm forever grounding myself whilst talking to people and in any difficult situation.
Worth a try.
Remember to play!
Do the right thing, whether anyone is watching or not.
Be married, until you are not.
Email address: angeline.greenwood@att.net
some stuff, like lifting and woodworking, I know he is into and would do but he lets his insecurities/passive mindset drag him away from, in favor of quick gratification.
I lift and do woodworking. My wife thinks it's pretty damn alpha when I can whip up a custom vanity for the bathroom and save a couple thousand dollars doing it.
What type of things does he seek for quick gratification? Would he rather just buy something instead of spending the time to make it himself? Eat out instead of cooking a meal? Do you show support when he talks about doing certain things?
I have just skimmed this thread as I have been avoiding screen time as much as possible lately. So if these have been covered just disregard it.
Computer games and eating out are his two main sources of quick gratification. He has identified his insecurity as the root. When it's triggered, he gets frantic, and seeks instant gratification. When he is able to slow down and confront the insecurity, he makes solid choices. I do my best to encourage him and affirm him when he makes these choices. But sometimes I get stuck because I worry if I make too big of a deal about it, he'll feel like I'm hovering and watching him to make progress. As soon as he feels like he has to do something he won't do it. Where is the balance between affirmation and space?
We had a great talk last night where he said that he was so excited to be finally confronting his issues and being in control of his life again. That was very encouraging because this time there is action to go along with it (starting to lift, track meals, take alone time to process insecurities of the day through prayer).
Our situations have some similarities, particularly the passivity leading to lack of attraction resulting in never having good sex. What compounded it for me though was that I was completely shut down to start with (before marriage), and I still don't know why that was, apart from my general determination not to be sexually active before marriage (which I didn't succeed at as well as I wanted). It's hard to turn something on that I'd spent a lot of effort keeping off, I guess. I didn't really feel arousal until this year, and then it was like a switch flipping in my mind. Not sure what triggered that either. But now, while I feel general arousal and have learned how to O, I don't feel it *for my husband*. And I think that's entirely due to attraction issues.
It's great that your husband has taken the initiative to get control over some parts of his life and improve himself. You'll do a lot better if he's also trying to improve things with you. I feel like I'm trying to push a mule up a hill or something in dealing with my husband, as he seems to have no energy for anything beyond what he has to do, and isn't making much effort to improve anything. Low-T is not helping here.
"Where is the balance between affirmation and space?" Probably somewhere in the middle, but tipped more toward space to let him make choices, and occasional affirmation after (but not immediately after - no hovering) he makes a good one. If he appreciates the affirmation, he'll do better if you don't give it every time (random reward principle). With this strategy, he won't make good choices every time, but the rate should increase over time. Also, if he's aimed toward a bad choice but hasn't made it yet, maybe you could redirect him? Specifically, if he wants to eat out for dinner, but you have food available at home, can you offer the food you already have? That doesn't always work with my husband if he's got a craving for pizza or something, plus he's picky and we often don't have anything readily available that he's willing to eat, but with some careful planning, I've successfully redirected him a few times. Sometimes I can make homemade pizza instead of buying a pizza, or even have a meal pre-cooked and ready for when we might otherwise go out due to lack of time.
telyni at gmail
Regarding your mule pushing comment (haha) I've had success in getting him to work with me by many many direct talks where I've called out his bad behavior and told him it is unacceptable and literally walked out of the room if he didnt lower his voice or whatever nonsense he was pulling that day . I've told him he was not fulfilling his part of marriage according to what the Bible says a husband should do and how he should love. I've told him I find no joy in our marriage and told him I'd be seeking outside sources of joy in female friends, going to the gym, alone time (and then made myself scarce for him). I told him he needs to get his PE in order, he needs to lose weight, and I will no longer push myself to have unpleasurable sex. Basically, I've made a lot of statements that made me cringe and think I was being a horrible wife, but this is what lit a fire under him and made him realize he needs to change.
Thanks for your feedback on the affirmation stuff. He suggested we give each other 5 positive things to declare over each other each morning. I think this is good because it's affirmation but not tied to an action, so I don't have to worry about hovering. I will give some random affirmations as you suggested though, I like that.
Put back on course via a 'One Hour Call' with Athol. Seriously worth 10 times the cost, but don't tell him that....
“Between stimulus and response, there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom.” - Victor Frankl
I understand getting a man to have his T checked is difficult. More than a few MAPers here that are fighting that same battle. Hang out on their threads as well for ideas and encouragement. Serenity and telyni are already in contact and I'd imagine amblrgirl as well. Good resources.
Put back on course via a 'One Hour Call' with Athol. Seriously worth 10 times the cost, but don't tell him that....
“Between stimulus and response, there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom.” - Victor Frankl
A lot of his symptoms could be indicative of low T, but honestly, they can also be indicative of a lot of other things ... porn use, general depression, etc.
My guess is that he's got a combination of things going on.
So ... game plan.
1. Have him check his T levels. That's the easiest to rule out.
It's not a sex thing, it's a health thing.
Guys with low T are:
2. Rule out porn use. Honestly, a lot of his symptoms ... PE, anxiety, low level depression, low motivation ... can stem from porn use as much as they can from low T.
If he's had a lot of porn use in the past, it's going to be tough for him to stop cold turkey. My guess is he's having more than once every six months lapses.
Porn use can be as easy as 10 minutes in the bathroom with his phone before bed. A lot of guys who use porn need it to sleep, and simply don't 'feel right' without it. Porn is more a matter of dopamine than it is about sex.
When we coach guys, it's not a matter of 'if' they use porn, it's more a question of 'how much'. Seriously, it's ubiquitous amongst guys until they start Mapping.
So, rule out those two things, and go from there.
The Secret to Why Your Wife Doesn't Initiate; Top Two Reasons Your Husband Doesn't Want Sex; Dominance-It's Not a Bad Word; Top 10 Ways to Increase Testosterone Naturally