Triage, 13 years sexless marriage

Timbo

Here's my triage:

Question One - Basic Questions

I’m 48, my wife is 41. We have been married 15 years, together for 18 years. 2 lovely children age 10 and 12 (both IVF).

I would put myself at a 6-7, my wife 5-6. I’m at my medically ideal weight, my wife has gained quite a few pounds since we met and weighs more than I do and does not exercise. I’m slightly taller than she is.

I’m a family doctor, work long hours 5 days/week often more, but keep fit (no weights, more running), she works minimum wage 1 day a week.

Question Two - Rule Out Medical

We are both quite healthy and take no medication.

My wife suffers from stress and is always unwell with headaches, nausea, bad periods, recurrent viral infections and is always tired and complains she never sleeps properly. Symptoms always worse around bedtime of course. She has had blood tests which are normal.

Question Three - Structural Attraction issues

No issues that I can identify except that I am far too beta, and don’t really have any close friends any more (since getting married).

I hold down a good job, no financial problems, I’m my ideal weight and not unattractive physically, and I am fit. We have a nice house. I spend time with the children, I help around the house. I try to be supportive. I am psychologically reasonably well adjusted (although I was bullied very badly at boarding school I think I have come to terms with this) and fairly self confident, although my social life is lacking mostly due to working such long hours.

Question Four - critical Moments and Neglect

No big issues. No overuse of porn. No affairs.

Question Five - Outside Sexual Sources

No outside sexual sources.

Question Six - When Did Sex Go Bad?

We had a very good sex life until she fell pregnant with our first child. Then she lost interest almost overnight, so we have been in a sexless relationship for 13 years. She is convinced that married couples with children do not have sex and this is as far as any of our conversations on the topic get. If I push her on this issue she claims that I am being unreasonable and misunderstand what is normal.

When we do occasionally have sex she orgasms easily and enjoys it and always asks why we don’t do it more often (!).

Question Seven - Sex at Start Of Relationship

We have both had previous partners, probably average for our ages when we met.

My wife was actually married when we met but assures me that the marriage never got off the ground, she never lived with him, it was a mistake, and she was fully divorced within weeks of us meeting. I know little more about it than this, and she never even told her own father about that marriage.

When we first met the sex was awesome! Every night, even had a threesome, and a bit of outdoor sex. It was still regular at least every other night until she fell pregnant, so that’s 4-5 years of good sex, down to almost nothing overnight.

Question Eight - Elephant in The Room

First thing: I’m bisexual. She was very excited about it when we first met, in fact she found out I was bisexual when she suggested a threesome with another man a few months after we met and I said ‘yes please!!!’, and she loved it. There has never been any secret about my sexuality (with her or any of my previous girlfriends). She banned me from talking about it ever again about 2 years into our relationship. About 10 years ago I did mention it again and she allowed me to meet a few men for sex (I wasn’t getting it at home), I haven’t had sex with another man for about 8-9 years now and don’t discuss it any more. She has told me that what happened 10 years ago was just her trying to keep me happy but she hated it, I didn’t know at the time. I’m reasonably ok ignoring that side of my sexuality, and at the moment I do, although I feel that it is a significant part of myself I am having to keep hidden away for no good reason (ie it wasn’t part of the deal when we met).

Second thing: Having babies! See question 10. Perhaps the other issue here is that she always insisted she wanted 4 children but I only wanted 2 and got my way. We have never really discussed this.

Question Nine - Leadership

In terms of leadership I would say we are both currently about equal.

Question Ten - The Good Times

When things were good we spent a lot of time together and were very excited about starting a family. She asked me how many children I wanted on our first date, and everything seemed to be leading up to settling down and starting a family. I think we were married after our first date to be honest. It was very exciting because I was also very keen to have children.

Sex was always about having children. She wanted to start trying immediately but I asked her to wait a few years until we got married. Maybe she lost her interest once she fell pregnant because suddenly it wasn’t about having children any more, and we knew any more would be by IVF as well. WRITING THIS IS THE FIRST TIME I HAVE REALISED THIS FACT!

I spent the first 10 years of my sexless marriage getting frustrated, depressed and angry and just hoping things would improve, then I decided to get pro-active - I got fit, changed jobs to be nearer to home, started meditating and learning about Buddhism and self improvement. I have spent 100’s of hours talking on forums and the only advice I have ever had is to just get divorced. I have spend a lot of money on personal counselling which achieved nothing except to convince me that divorce was the only option. I don’t want to divorce though.

Then I read the MMSLP and MAP and it’s the first thing after years of reading and talking that has made any sort of sense to me!! I have always known I can’t change my wife I have to change myself but never known how. After 1 week being more assertive I’m already seeing some changes, my wife is smiling at me and when I try to kiss her she pulls me in rather than acting disinterested. 13 years of no sex = 13 months of work so very early days yet.

I’m going to do a proper MAP next.

Thanks for listening and I would love to hear what you think.

HildaCorners

Welcome!

Sounds like you know what needs to be done, and are already doing it — becoming more of the family leader. And, you're getting a good response.

Here's what makes me think this will be a success:

When we do occasionally have sex she orgasms easily and enjoys it and always asks why we don’t do it more often (!).

I'm guessing her "sexless marriage is normal after kids" is social programming that she feels she "should" follow, but her body disagrees.

As far as the bisexuality goes ... the important thing isn't your sexuality, but that you're monogamously married (until you are not). I think you know this ... going outside the marriage is very dangerous territory, not to be done if you're marriage is weak for other reasons.

HowlAtTheMoon

What was your infertility diagnosis? (I.e. does she perhaps feel broken.)


Even though she 'gave permission' a part of her likely feels the sex with men 8,9,10 years ago was akin to you having multiple affairs. 

Timbo

@HowlAtTheMoon no diagnosis ever given, don't think she feels broken. Agree with the sex with men bit (although it was only two or three times, can't remember exactly now) although we had the best sex ever just after I had sex with a man. I think she was torn about that - it's exciting but forbidden and she has come down on the 'forbidden' side and feels guilty that she ever let me do it and probably feels I used her. Bit of a psychological minefield that one so best never to be repeated.

@HildaCorners thanks for the welcome, this forum is great.

I'm guessing her "sexless marriage is normal after kids" is social programming that she feels she "should" follow, but her body disagrees.

Definitely social programming I think all her friends have the same idea, but I was wondering if it is more of Hamster thinking (is that the correct term?) in that it is just her concious reasoning as to why her libido is so non-existent, but in fact it is just that I no longer trigger her 'wanting to make a baby' instinct because it's never worked before ie both our kids are IVF

I was wondering it is sensible to discuss this with her or just carry on trying to do a MAP? Not sure I have much to gain by discussing it as it's not a concious decision for her, possibly something to lose if she just thinks I'm trying to convince her to have sex with me.

IrishGypsy

Definitely don't talk about it. Ever. You're in the best place to MAP properly seeing as your sex life is virtually nonexistent. MAPing for sex is just a huge covert contract (you do a MAP and you expect her to just jump on top of you in return). I tried this for a whole year and whilst I've made definite improvements in certain areas, the frequency hasn't budged an inch.

If you focus on becoming the attractive man you were when you two met, then your wife will either want to jump back on the Timbo train or she won't. But you'll have got your shit together regardless and upped your SMP (Sexual Marketplace Value) at the same time.

You may even find that, once the wife goggles are smashed to pieces, that you no longer love her the same as you did before.

Either way, go and do some things that make YOU happy and therefore bring positive energy to the family.

It's VERY draining running an intense MAP, but it fucking works. Check out @nubby 's threads for evidence of just how much a marriage can be turned around.

Best of luck.

HildaCorners

I also wouldn't talk about it.

If her loss of sexual attraction is because she no longer sees you as attractive, it's on you to become attractive again. Part of this is becoming a stronger leader, and part of being a leader is to not explain your thinking and seek consensus on everything.

As Irish said, you MAP for yourself, to make you a stronger, better person. You'll be working on things that need improving, whether sex is the reward or not. Talking to your wife about your MAP is setting yourself up for "he's only doing XYZ because he thinks he'll get more sex." Bad move.

Instead, just run your MAP. At some point, she may ask you why you're doing these new things. Even then, don't bring up sex as the reason ... tell her you just want to be more awesome.

Timbo

Thanks @IrishGypsy and @HildaCorners

I know that all of this is about my wife and not myself (a no-no I realise that), and I totally get the idea of self improvement and agree with that. I don't think I have any reds (except eating too much sugar) due to my self improvement already so I'm almost certainly in phase two with minimal effort and getting 'pleasant' responses immediately. I'm just wondering how this plan plays out in my situation.

I know my wife potentially has a great libido, very decisively and instantly turned off because making babies suddenly became nothing to do with sex for the 2 of us (or at least she turned into a 100% difficult responsive desire). I know that if she met a new man she would be all over him, sex twice a day, because she would suddenly subconciouly think again sex=babies. Tough but almost certainly true.
I don't think I'm a bad husband, even so she has zero wish to even consider my sexual happiness and has done so for 13 years. If the key to her libido is baby making potential then just being more alpha and making myself the perfect person to potentially father and raise children isn't going to change this psychological block on sex.

In other words how can I trigger the baby making urge again? I suspect that without that I am never going to become sexually attractive to her again.

Am I overthinking this?? or should I be thinking about it at all? I know this is to improve myself anyway and is actually outcome independant. Apologies @IrishGypsy this is exactly the sort of thinking you are telling me not to do!

DaddyOh

@HildaCorners ^^^ Yes Yes. Especially the last paragraph. By stating you're just working on becoming awesome, it will strike a sense of trepidation on her part. Which is actually good. 

Overthinking is not necessarily bad, as long as you don't sit down and discuss everything with your wife. Action over words. 

HildaCorners

You may not have any stop-light Reds, but I spotted some yellows in your triage:

I am far too beta, and don’t really have any close friends any more

my social life is lacking mostly due to working such long hours

In terms of leadership I would say we are both currently about equal.

The last one first ... if you've been reading/watching Athol, you know that, even if you are both capable of leading, you need to be *the* leader, the Captain to her First Officer. That's definitely something to work on.

The first two seem to point to you becoming a less-rounded person ... in MAP terms, you've nerfed your personality. Happens a lot, and you need to work on this.

For more ideas, watch "Married Guy's Guide to Wife." Athol's 6 brands x 3 (Attraction, comfort, sexuality) should give you lots of ideas for ways to inject some new awesome into your life.

If Mrs Timbo is convinced she *shouldn't* want sex post kids (as opposed to actually not being attracted), you have to find ways to overcome that conditioning. I'm not a good resource on that but we have other "regulars" who've been through that wall.

Timbo

Thanks @HildaCorners that's some awesome advice.

I think I misunderstood the term 'nerfing' but I agree I'm not the rounded person I used to be in terms of social contact. And, yes, I'm working on the leadership thing - one thing I know about my wife is that she is bossy, but likes me to take the final decision on things.
Thanks for the pointer to the video, might watch that soon.
I will check through the forum to see what advice I can find on overcoming the no sex after kids thing. Any idea on who discussed it/where it has been discussed?

Tennee

"I know my wife potentially has a great libido, very decisively and instantly turned off because making babies suddenly became nothing to do with sex for the 2 of us (or at least she turned into a 100% difficult responsive desire). I know that if she met a new man she would be all over him, sex twice a day, because she would suddenly subconciouly think again sex=babies. Tough but almost certainly true.
I don't think I'm a bad husband, even so she has zero wish to even consider my sexual happiness and has done so for 13 years. If the key to her libido is baby making potential then just being more alpha and making myself the perfect person to potentially father and raise children isn't going to change this psychological block on sex."

Partial credit, but you have some things mixed up above, at least in terms of how we view things around here.  Let's parse...

We colloquially use the term 'Lizard Brain' here to refer to the subconscious and its effect on sexual desire.  So, would it be 'Any' man here:   "I know that if she met a new man she would be all over him, sex twice a day, because she would suddenly subconsciously think again sex=babies."  No, of course not just 'any man', its a man she's attracted to.  Because ol' Lizzie wants to make healthy babies - remember this part in Primer?  This is more about dopamine flowing vs. 'making babies', although at a primal level that's what gets everything going anyway. 

"If the key to her libido is baby making potential then just being more alpha and making myself the perfect person to potentially father and raise children isn't going to change this psychological block on sex."

This is a false assumption IMO.  Attraction is the key to her libido, because its attraction that drives the tingles.  Lizard Brain is driving the whole thing deep down to make babies, but operating at the conscious level is just....'mmmmmm, attraction'.   Alpha leadership, physical changes, strength, intelligence...these are things that drive attraction.

Can I make the assumption that during your IVF, y'all were both tested, no issues found in either party, and you fell into the 'Can't Explain 10%'?  Cause W and I were there (1 gorgeous DD, via IVF).  So, how does she subconsciously 'fault' you for not making babies, when it was simply 'unexplained'?  You tested out clear I bet, so she knows you're capable of 'making babies'.  And so is she.   Cause y'all made one, albeit with some assistance.   

I'd suggest you wipe clean the white-board, Dr., and begin the examination again.   Approach this with an open mind, and ditch any per-conceived notions. 

Welcome aboard.

Tennee

Oh, this:

"About 10 years ago I did mention it again and she allowed me to meet a few men for sex (I wasn’t getting it at home), I haven’t had sex with another man for about 8-9 years now and don’t discuss it any more. She has told me that what happened 10 years ago was just her trying to keep me happy but she hated it, I didn’t know at the time."

Like it or not, you fire-bombed a Loyalty Test here.  I suspect this is a massive CMN to her, and its very much lurking and seething deep down.  

Timbo

@Tenneethanks for being so straight with me.

I'm very familar with the term 'Lizard Brain', in fact I'm fascinated by the theory underlying all of this (the role of the enteric nervous system, hindbrain and gating systems and left/right brain split). I'm sort of thinking that I am overthinking things and I should just try to MAP and forget trying to analyse because if it doesn't work out then I'm a better person for it and can move on, or it works and bingo!

Yes, our infertility is unexplained, I have a slightly low sperm count but that's it. As I understand it (and what I tell my patients) is that 1 in 3 people are subfertile, if one of those meets a fertile partner no problem, get 2 subfertile people together and you have problems.

About the failed loyalty test, it was 10 years ago when I knew nothing, I was so horny I would have had sex with a lamp post. At least I didn't go behind her back. It's something to bear in mind. I should concentrate on building trust and I'm aware of that - trying to do what I can at the moment, regular texting, being supportive, plenty of attention, telling her how much she means to me, and putting her centre of everything. Should I bring it up again to talk about it or just carry on proving my loyalty?
 
Thanks again.

Tennee

You'll find that many of us will pay you the courtesy of being blunt here; its dubbed the '2X4'.   I told a newbie recently to 'toughen up buttercup' - some people get their feelings all butt-hurt by the truth.   Take the sarcasm, the 2X4s, the blaring white light of the truth in stride, and you'll learn by leaps and bounds.  I've never seen a group of folks more willing to share than this bunch - sometimes whether you like it or not...

OK, first, I would start with the premise that the key is attraction based, until you prove otherwise. 

Next, let's further delve into what I really think is a huge CMN for y'all.  Add some context to this for us:  "About 10 years ago I did mention it again and she allowed me to meet a few men for sex (I wasn’t getting it at home)"

So, was it this:

I complained and complained and bitched and moaned, and was all passive/aggressive and mopey, and she finally said, in exasperated tones 'Well get your rocks off dammit, I don't give a damn'!

Or this:

'I brought it up, and she was really quiet and pensive, and after a while she quietly and sheepishly said 'its okay, I guess, if you really have to, I mean if you really have to...' and then she went off to her room to cry for a while

Or this:

'I brought it up, she seemed excited like the threesome time, but then after a while, she got bitter about it and then said 'never speak of this again'

See the context differences?

I think this event is likely a massive Elephant seated in the room next to you, and should be treated accordingly until ruled out. 

Tennee

Oh, very, VERY important terminology here:  STFU.  Shut.the.fuck.up.   No talkie, action. 

Adopt this as a bedrock principle today.  You may eventually have to pick scabs to get proper healing, and that will absolutely involve some intensive conversation.  But until you're there, STFU and Do. 

42andatowel

Timbo said:

I should concentrate on building trust and I'm aware of that - trying to do what I can at the moment, regular texting, being supportive, plenty of attention, telling her how much she means to me, and putting her centre of everything. Should I bring it up again to talk about it or just carry on proving my loyalty?

This sounds like classic orbiting to me.  Orbiting kills attraction.  In the context of a loyalty test, some of that is required.  However I'm not sure how to address it in the context of a CMN from 10 years ago.  I just know orbiting is bad.

Timbo

@Tennee the honesty and frankness of this forum is refreshing. I've spent a while on Reddit Deadbedrooms, plenty of sympathy there and tales of woe (and blaming my wife for 'bait and switch'), but absolutely nothing about taking ownership of the problem or help sorting it out. I really appreciate how helpful you lot are.

Really not sure about what happened 10 years ago I think she was genuinely trying to make me happier (she made the suggestion that I do it) but regretted it afterwards, bear in mind we were already in a total deadbedroom at the time so it wasn't a cause of anything getting any worse. I might bring it up for discussion one day but maybe not yet I need to work on trust building in general. Talking has never worked, it just recirculates negative energy, I like the idea of 'action' at this stage.

@42andatowel I'm really aware of not to seem like I'm orbiting. I'm not really an 'orbiter'. What I am doing is quite genuine, just a once a day text to let he know I'm thinking about her at work, and an 'I love you' once or twice a day, and really trying to concentrate when we talk, show genuine interest and to make some sensible conversation. She normally complains that I'm always on the computer and she never sees me - I'm trying to fix that (except here I am on the computer again!)

Thanks again to everyone - I am really in debt to you all and hope I can be of help to others once I work through this myself.

Timbo

I think I'm hitting a wall on this already. How do you cope with the ANGER?? I work stupid hours to keep my family, I'm working hard at home to go from good husband to excellent husband - I'm getting a few more smiles a few more cuddles, last night my wife was asleep before I even got into bed. There is absolutely no passion, absolutely nothing sexual in our relationship. I want some reward for all the hard work I put into life and my family but I get nothing, forced celibacy and pretending it's normal is slowly killing me.

Yesterday at work an older colleague started talking about the local provision for vasectomies and suddenly asked me 'so have you had your vasectomy yet? it's the best thing I ever did' with a big grin. I was so tempted to say 'no point since we never have sex'. He obviously has a great sex life, it's painful to have to pretend I'm at it every night as well - I can't understand what I have done wrong to deserve the torture I have been put through in the last 13 years.

I am suddenly feeling the anger over this. Admittedly I'm exhausted from a long work week and I'm working the weekend (again!). It's not a good place to MAP from.

IrishGypsy

Timbo said:

I want some reward for all the hard work I put into life and my family but I get nothing, forced celibacy and pretending it's normal is slowly killing me.

You need to work on your FRAME. @Tennee posted a really good description of what that is (hopefully he can post it again in here as doing that on my phone isn't easy), but the jist was:

'The FRAME that makes up the structure of a home does it's job day-in and day-out silently. It keeps the family protected, warm and safe from harm because that's its job. And it never, ever, asks for a reward for doing so. It just cracks on with the task at hand because it understands that's it's role - and keeping everyone safe, warm and happy IS the reward.'

The forced celibacy is only with your wife because your wife goggles and oneitis have yet to be smashed to pieces.

Once they're both gone, from MAPping for YOU (and NOT sex), then your increasing awesomeness will be noticed by other women in Indicators of Interest (or IOI's). Your wife MIGHT notice this awesomeness (and other women checking you out) and either her attraction to you will increase (aka pre-selection) or it won't. 

But once you, truly, know you ARE the prize, you may not even want to be married to someone who doesn't want to have sex with you. Giving you the supreme inner confidence to say goodbye, file for divorce and find a woman who will make you happy in the ways you want.

As they also say here "it's a marathon, not a sprint". So expect it to take a LONG time for your wife to believe (and test the living shit out of) your improvements. It's part of the process and the more she tests you, the more validation you're getting that you're upsetting the apple-cart and that she's noticing the improved you on both a conscious and subconscious level.

Stay strong, worry less about getting sex and work on being the man you were when you met your now wife.

Best of luck.

DaddyOh

"Older colleague" appears to be happy and getting laid. Why is that? I'm really curious.

Ask yourself why he's in that position? Maybe hang out with him. Guys night out, etc. 

Agree with above on the Frame. If you had an awesome day then the sex rejection at night would have no significant impact on you. Remember, lack of sex is her loss. Not yours.

 Also stop putting so much pressure on yourself. I bet your doing awesome from 7am-9pm but that 5min "nightly Sex move" and getting rejected is the last emotion you experience and thus has the biggest impact. Plenty of guys, before the MAP, lay in bed at 10pm wondering if tonight's the night she's going to "give me some sex?".

Remember, you already had an awesome day. 

Timbo

@IrishGypsy thanks again! I just needed a pep talk which you have given me. Just over a week into MAPing expecting too much, and brain fog due to overwork.

@Tennee did a great thread on anger and frame. Just read through it and that was helpful.

I'm not actually in the slightest bit worried about divorce for myself, I would cope fine, and I would find a new partner. I'm more concerned about the children and I couldn't divorce just because of no sex and make them suffer. If we had no children I would be long gone. I love my wife but without passion and intimacy it's just a good friendship.
This is perhaps where my MAP will fail because at the moment I can't think of divorce for that reason, so it would be an empty threat. I just hope it works before I get to that stage.

Starting this has made me think of nothing but sex again. Not said anything to the wife, not even tried to initiate for a few weeks, just getting a bit frustrated. I need to meditate more....