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Comments
I used to have a co-dependant personality (with a narcisstic father, like mine, this often happens I understand), my wife used to be very borderline - I think that's why we got together. I've changed a lot, she is much further behind. I think that could be where our problems stem from. I spent hours talking about it in therapy - good theory and very interesting but practically of no help.
I agree with your other points thanks.
At the very least, consider hardcore MAPing for a few years until your kids are in HS. Your wife has no incentive to change if you stay the current course. But if she feels uncomfortable then you might see a change.
How will you live well today?
Eventually, being awesome will be who you are. And then, your wife will notice and want to be with you--she will become attracted to you. Or she won't. There are no guarantees in the real world. If she becomes attracted to you...great. Have much sex and a great marriage. If she does not, then you will have hard decisions to make.
If you decided to serve your wife D papers and told her "I'm just not happy in this marriage". What would her reaction be? Would she finally jump your bones? Would she seek MC? Would her world become shattered?
The reason I'm asking, is to gauge whether you guys are on the same page. Does she know how important intimacy is to you?
Now, I'm not saying sit her down and give her an ultimatum. In fact you need to STFU. But from your triage; Great Father? Check. Job? Freaking MD. Healthy? Yup.
You got quite a few things going for you. Is she just on cruise control?
But, if your wife had told you, before marriage, that it would no longer be happening after a certain point, would you STILL have married her?
Sex is the last thing on my MAP (not on my mind, my sex-drive is through the roof right now, but on my MAP). If, by the time I've got my shit in shape, my wife STILL isn't attracted enough to me to WANT to have sex with me more than twice a month, then, yes. I'd file for divorce. Even though I'd get fucked over in UK courts, I'd respect myself enough to find someone who wants to show me passion as my 'Love Language' is touch (like most guys here).
Invest in the video series and books. But, most importantly, invest the time in YOU.
You've read the MAP book, no? Right now you're beginning phase 1, and thinking about divorce is Phase 4 or 5. So it's fine to not worry about divorce yet.
As Fredless said, the Go Plan is the same as the Stay Plan. In both cases, you have to work on self improvement and Frame. Anything you do now that would help you get through a divorce would also help you make your marriage better.
Work on Frame. Work on the Reds on your MAP. If you get angry, lift heavy things / go for a run. Hard exercise is an excellent way to get rid of anger.
Enneagram 5w4. I'm researching what that means, before designing t-shirt art about it.
"I feel no shame in making lavish use of the strongest muscles, namely male ones (but my own strongest muscle is dedicated to the service of men - noblesse oblige). I don't begrudge men one whit of their natural advantages as long as they respect mine. I am not an unhappy pseudomale; I am female and like it that way." RAH
@DaddyOh yes on paper I look good, not sure what went wrong, probably just too beta, but working on that. Definitely a few yellows to work on yet, and becoming more of a leader at home.
I was wondering when you say 'Are you sure you want to take Divorce off the table? ' do you mean that when I get to phase 3 or 4 or whatever it is I should just fake it? I wouldn't divorce until the children were 18 if nothing changes, and threatening to leave her in 8 years time isn't much of a threat. I would never say never though.
Anyway, hopefully it will work out before then, I'm only in phase 1 (or 2 I think) right now - as @HildaCorners says.
@IrishGypsy good luck with your marriage. Looks like you are doing a good job I hope I have your determination.
and...
Back to being awesome. Taking over the menu this week, doing the shopping, cooking all the food to put in the fridge to be reheated when I'm at work. Organising a night away for us on my week off in a few weeks. Getting the children to behave (I've always been a pushover) my youngest didn't speak to me last night after I got hard on her for messing about. DHV - buying some new clothes. Got to fix the drain tomorrow. This is hard work and I have to keep it up for how long??
Tell us about a typical Day in the life of Timbo. How does your day start off? How do you interact with your wife before and especially after work? Do you go home and bitch and complain about your job? Do you bitch about work before you even go?
If you answered yes to either STOP IT NOW!!!! Doing anything like that is a huge turn off (don't ask how I know this). Go to work thinking it will be an awesome day. If you have a bad day, leave it at work. Never go home and bitch about it. If your wife asks, just tell her you had an awesome day and leave it at that.
How are you with decisions at home? If your wife asks your opinion about something do you tell her what you actually think or what you think she wants to hear? Do you initiate often? Not only sex but conversation and cuddle time? How about date nights? Do you plan and execute them?
You said divorce is off the table for now. Fair enough, but she doesn't need to know that. Keep running your map. Look for as many leadership moments as possible.
One thing I really recommend is to lift weights. A lot of women "say" they don't care about muscles (my wife is one of them) but when you start putting on muscle, they take notice and love it. Another plus is other women will notice too. If your wife sees other women take interest in you, she may decide to step up so as to not lose you. Fixing shit around the house is cool, showing off your muscles while doing may give her the tingles.
We all come here expecting miracles but as everyone knows, it's persistence and hard work that really pay off.
End of day I give the kids a kiss (often they are in bed) then ask the wife how her day was and talk for a few minutes, try to listen and act interested. Usually a long list of complaints about how bad her day was! I usually don't talk about my day except just to say it was busy as usual, never complain too much otherwise she gets angry and starts blaming everyone else for me being late home, usually the patients for being selfish and unreasonable, and she tells me I need to 'sort it out'. I go home no later then the other docs.
Thinking about trying weights. Done a lot of changes in the last week or so, might be a bit much at the moment, but it's a thought.
Get the point about it being a long haul. Not expecting anything in return just yet.
Her happiness isn't your responsibility, but if she'd like to find a job, or go back to school, or start a business or cultivate a serious hobby, then you both should be talking to each other about it.
Practically of course she does have to look after the children when I am at work.
She spends her time looking after the house, shopping, lunch/coffee with friends. She says she can't cope and never has time for anything. Admittedly the children do far too many clubs so apart from school time she is very busy and when she has been unwell and I have had to do it all on my days off work it is tough.
She does help fend off my parents and is good with them as they are very demanding and I really appreciate that. She also has a depressed very dependant, unreasonable and demanding mother. So there are family pressures on her which I understand.
I do my best to help. Do the kids running about when I can, I always cook on my days off and help with housework. I organise finances. She does have a reasonable amount of free time in my opinion.
Bottom line is life is tough and her happiness isn't my responsibility. I think she quite comfortable being unhappy and a martyr, changing that would mean she would have to face up to her part in it and that it is not everyone else's fault (BPD again). She used to blame me a lot for her unhappiness I have tried hard over the last few years to handle that better and be firm with her and more self conficent, and there is a slow change, she doesn't blame me directly half as much as she used to.
He will, after reading your posts here, in an hour, cold read your situation so accurately that you will think he is psychic and give you highly targeted advice that will take weeks or months to get here on the forum, if we ever give you the same advice he will give.
Athol is the Professor, and we are a bunch of MS1's in comparison.
It will be the best $149 you ever spent. I've talked to him a few times, and he is worth 20X what he charges.
“I’m going to plead with you, do not cross us. Because if you do, the survivors will write about what we do here for 10,000 years.” General James Mattis, USMC
Her life is tough?
Really? After reading how much you provide (and do) I'm ready to drop the "first world problems" on her.
She might need a purpose in life. She has to have a reason to get up in the morning (besides the kids).
Keep MAPing my friend and agree ^^ an hour call would be beneficial
Trying not to blame my wife. It took 2 of us to get into this situation, I have at least enabled it if, and I can't make her change. I'm not in the slightest bit religious but I can see this as a test that I will come out of spiritually much stronger. (Luckily I believe in the Buddhist view of multiple incarnations, that each life has a purpose - probably learning to stand up for myself - and all things balancing out between lives so my next life I will probably get plenty of hot kinky sex to make up for this one, or maybe not - you might think it's all rubbish and delusional but it helps me feel better, plus death doesn't frighten me in the slightest
And 'What doesn't kill you only makes you stronger' or something like that!
Been reading the success stories on here. Really motivational and informative.
I would say the first order of business should be for you to put together a offical map and post it to get feedback. Then come up with your 3 monkeys. right now we have no idea what changes your currently making so we don't know how to help you.
we are trying to diagnose a desease but we cant see the patient.
Health
Red - too much sugar
Yellow - small social circle, no close friends
Green - good health, fit
Green - good diet
Money and materials
Partial Red - take a while to fix things around the house, often have to be reminded
Yellow - my office is untidy and cluttered
Green - have good savings for 'emergency money'
Green - enjoy my work
Displaying high value
Red - displaying low value by having not bought any new clothes for >5 years
Yellow - need to improve maintaining frame
Green(ish) - getting much better at being playfully dominant
Relationship comfort
No Reds here that I can see
Yellow - need to find out what my wife really wants
Yellow - fitness and loyalty tests, I'm actually not noticing any of these yet, need to watch out
Green - I always say thank you for anything I appreciate
Green - good integrity
Green - putting my wife first (I hope she would agree)
Green - assume positive intentions - I always do until proven otherwise
Personality
Red - nerfing my personality, not 100% sure about this, but possibly true
I used to have a lot of hobbies and interests, most of them used to take me out of the house for a whole day which is not possible any more. I would be exhausted doing them now on top of my work hours. I'm looking into other interests I want to attend some courses and will probably do this in the next year.
Yellow - start paying yourself first, I never spend money on myself except for essentials
High energy sex
Not having any sex so most of this doesn't apply (I used to be very adventurous indeed and would have had a clean sheet here in the old days)
Green - committed
Green - play all day - I do try
My current 3 monkeys:
1) Trying to be more playfully dominant, regularly approaching my wife for a kiss and/or cuddle and making it playful. This is fun and I really enjoy it. If I'm not getting sex then at least I can demand a bit of kissing and cuddling when I feel like it.
2) Get things fixed
3) Taking command of the house
extra monkey - buying some more clothes!
Your wife definitely has some issues to tackle, but you're correct that you'll have to change you before you can motivate/lead her to change. She may need your help on a few things, though (i.e. your "demanding" parents, mental health care, etc.)
Regarding divorce - It's fine if you currently feel it's off the table (but your wife doesn't need to know that). I felt that way when I started here. Sometimes (as in my case), that changes as you MAP. Just be aware that your views may shift as you become more awesome, and allow room for that.
I look forward to reading along as you MAP!
Fitocracy: atxchick
Enneagram 6w5, married to a 5
At the "unconscious" level, or call it lizard brain if you will, every human's reason for wanting sex is "baby making". This is not special to her, this is universal. And that lizard brain knows nothing of IVF. Plenty of women still want sex after the menopause, when (at the conscious level) they know they can't have children. You are correct, above: her statement that "it's not normal" is just a rationalisation. What you "no longer trigger" is her "I have to keep this male with me" instinct.
Once a codependent, always a codependent. I am suspicious of your claim that you used to be, especially since you say therapy didn't help you much. Perhaps you have learned to manage it better?
And you say she has borderline tendencies? That, to me, is primarily a disorder of emotional dysregulation - tendencies to angry outbursts and huge fear of abandonment.
That "working hard to be an excellent husband" is what still sounds codep to me.
You, somehow, have to not think of sex as a "reward" for all the hard work. It's what we call a "covert contract". You are ANGRY because you've done your half of the (imaginary) contract and she seems unaware of what she's supposed to deliver. Unfortunately you have to drop that way of thinking.