I need help

Carebear

Hello to the forum.  I've been on for a few years.  Had a 911 back in 2013.  Wonderful help from the forum.  Things were good.  I had that discussion deleted because I didn't want my Hunny to find it.  I've kept reading, running a MAP, albeit not a great one, and generally keeping up with the forum reading and learning.  

I'm at a place now where I just don't care if Hunny finds this or not.  I need help, like yesterday.
Hun, if you see this.  We need help, I'm trying to get it. 

Triage:
Basics: Me- 5'2" about 125, flat tummy (after 4 kids!) small boobs but I have that J-Lo booty thing going on. Long hair, nice skin.  I'm not too shabby.  I don't lift, but I do tons of squats and even push-ups. My Enneagram is 7(forgot my wing, 2 maybe?)  Him- 5'11'' maybe 170.  He looks great.  Very in shape, lean muscle, almost has a visible six pack. Very good looking.  I often see ladies look at him, he thinks that's bs.  He is so clueless!  Married 18 years.  Our kids range from 15 to almost 3.

Medical:  Well, things might get interesting here.  He's been on SSRIs for several years, since early-mid 2012.  He actually blamed the 'don't care' effect of the SSRI as part of the reason for his EA (unless webcamming is a PA, not sure how to categorize it)  As for the ssri effect of late, it has been causing some sexual side effects.  For example: I could literally blow him for half hour before achieving success.  Many times I just couldn't entice him to get it up.  It's par for the course with ssri's and I've tried not to let it bother me. He's been trying to cut back a bit and that helped with the get it up part almost immediately (just cutting 10 percent).
Me:  The birth control horrors go back to 2001.  Took the depo after the birth of our first.  That was a huge mistake.  I was. not. interested. at. all.  Nope, nope, nope.  Of course, I didn't even realize it.  Newborn, firstborn and all the days for the first two years seem to just run together.  I bet there were months without sex.  I've never asked Hun, but he has alluded to a sexless marriage at that time.  He even told me during a fight over sex once (while on the depo) that he needed to get a girlfriend or something.  I think I said something to the effect of "she'd be doing me a favor".  
Was on the pill off and on between kids.  I never noticed a big difference and he's not really mentioned anything either except that I just never seemed interested in him.  
In 2011, I had a miscarriage.  This is what began all our 'troubles'.  The m/c was incomplete, but I nor my ob knew.  For a while, I had normal periods.  Then after a few months they got longer and heavier.  Then more painful.  Then sporadic.  Ultrasounds and exams revealed nothing.  Doctor said it must just be endometriosis.  By 15 months post m/c I was bleeding 20 days of a month, heavily.  By 17 months I had such horrid pain I couldn't stand up straight.  I finally asked for some invasive tests as my ob still just chalked it up to endo.  He did a d-n-c and found a tiny scrap of fetal tissue.  
This is important as during this 18 month long horrible, painful constant period bleeding, my husband decided to webcam and hookup site girls.  We did still have sex-maybe only one to three times a month-but he wasn't completely cut off.  

Structural:
No huge issues here.  He makes good money. I'm a SAHM we homeschool.  The only structural issue is our house.  It's built weird.  It also is an energy drain in more ways than one.  For starters it costs a fortune to heat and cool.  It is over an hour from Hunny's work, so with his commute, he is gone 13 or so hours a day.  I'm not a great decorator, at all.  This is a biggie for Hunny as our house is not comfortable.  In the beginning, I tried and he shot down every piece I brought in.  So I stopped trying.  Our house is not homey.  I need to make this a glaring red.  Moreso, we just need to move.  We have the money to move someplace nice and then sell our home (it would sell better without a family of six plus two dogs living in it anyway) but Hunny refuses that route.  It's a sore spot for me. He instead will put it all on me to keep the house pristine when we list it.  It was listed about four years ago and that was very difficult to do with three kids and one dog.  We've added a toddler and a dog since then. 

CMN:
There is a lot here.  He claims I've ignored him, disrespected him, taken advantage of him.  I will own the taking advantage part.  He's a homebody.  I'm not.  When we had just two girls, I worked and would also often go out on a weekend for a whole day of outdoor fun with girlfriends. Usually just a Saturday. In my defense, I always asked and he said yes. So I feel it was ok.  Only later (after the affair blow up) did he tell me that I took advantage of him.  He thinks I should have known that it was rude to go off.  I probably have disrespected him a lot.  There have been many times I didn't hold respect for his ways.  I respect him as a person, but things like spending an hour raking  while the leaves are still falling make me shake my head and walk away.  If I get called away right after dinner because a toddler has to potty and only wants mommy.  I come out and all the dishes and full dinner bowls are all just sitting on the counter and he and the kids are all vegging away on their phones, I get upset at.  They are all proud that they cleared the table.  I'll be like "would it have been too hard to actually put the leftovers INSIDE the fridge instead of on the counter?"  That is the type of interaction that he deems disrespectful.  
He could probably expand on the CMN if he ever got on the forum.

For me: The CMN start with non-committment.  I asked him to marry me.  He never made any move toward a wedding, we never talked about getting married during the time after I asked. Finally, after being 'engaged' for two years I brought up eloping.  He said, "sure" then we never talked about that.  One day at about 10pm I told him I made an appointment and we could go to the courthouse.  He just went along with it.  At the time, it was just the logical next step.  We'd been together for four years, were living together and all.  In hindsight, it's a huge CMN for me.  I've told him.  He always says that he would have asked me to marry him, just in his own time.  Knowing the man, I don't think that would have happened.  If something needs to be done, I have to do it.
  When we were dating, he never took me around his friends.  Again, something I didn't notice as abnormal until I grew up.  (I was 15 when we got together)  
  

Carebear

The other big CMN is the affair.  In Dec 2012, I caught him webcamming and even stopped a hookup.  He had been aloof and distant and my spidey senses were up.  I took his phone one night while he was asleep and had to really work to figure it all out.  He had jailbroken it and had hidden apps.  It was a mess and I handled it all wrong.  I instantly took the blame (he said we weren't having sex, which was true).  About four days after d-day is when I demanded the dnc to find out what was wrong.  Then I proceeded to sex him up like crazy once I healed from the dnc.  Two months after that I got pregnant.  I've coddled, given blow jobs and offered sex any time he's been upset with me.  For nearly four years now.  He deleted everything he had done before I could see it, and it eats me up.  Still.  

  After the affair I went nuts with snooping.  Absolutely BSC nuts.  I snooped everything I could all day.  I got OCD about it.  I've been off the snooping for about a year now.  I occasionally can log onto his FB, but I'm getting good at not letting myself get carried away.  I'd like to stop altogether.  When he gets distant and aloof is when I feel the need to snoop.  He gets crazy mad if I do or even if I outright ask.  I get guilted "you won't find anything, I've been good"  

  Thing is, I sometimes do find small things.  Last time I looked at his messages, he had texted an old co worker a completely innocent picture of something.  It bothered me for two reasons: I asked him not to be talking to her as they weren't even working together anymore.  He also texted her a pic.  He could have sent it to me (I would have found the humor in it just as she had) but he chose her to text it to.  That really bugs me. So now he hasn't texted her for a month and it's all my fault.  He treats me as if I'm his momma that won't let him talk to his friend.  I think he's actually still mad over it. 

Outside Sources:

I've covered that.  I have no idea if he's ever had others.  If he has, I think it's probably so old it doesn't matter.  Likewise, we had broken up once and I slept with another guy.  Hunny never knew until I told him recently, he asked and I felt honesty was the best policy.  Not to mention that we all screw up and I'm not perfect and wanted him to know that.  I figured it would help him feel less guilty about his EA.  He's held it over me a couple times.  I have never gone outside the marriage or engagement at all.  

When did it go bad:

Well, I thought it was good until after the m/c.  I knew things were bad, then, but felt trapped as I had no diagnoses except for endo which I just had to live with.  According to Hunny, things were never good.  Go figure.

What it was like in the beginning:

I was 16, he was 18 and I wanted to keep my boyfriend and that's what girls do, right?  I enjoyed the attention.  I enjoyed the sex, he's a very skilled lover ;-)  I mostly enjoyed being the special girl in his life.  We had enough sex to make an 18 year old fall in loooove with me.  lol  maybe it was just lust, who knows.  We got it on like bunnies.  All the time, anywhere.

Elephant:

I have no idea.  Sometimes I just don't like him.  I hate that he comes home and sits on a device all night but gets on to our daughters for doing the same.  He will tell them to get off the phone and help mom, but he doesn't.  He says he deserves chill time.  Well, yes, and no.  He has an hour and a half commute.  It stinks, but he podcasts his own stuff, he can sit in silence, whatever.  He chooses to work 30 minutes later than he needs to because he would be spending that 30 minutes in traffic.  I think he could spend that 30 minutes "chilling' instead of working, so he is somewhat refreshed to spend time with the family.  I have two teenage daughters that will tell me "dad didn't even say Hi to me today" which is totally true.  However, if I mention it to my husband, he calls bs.  It is infuriating.   He also thinks our kids don't need extracurriculars.  Hello! They are homeschooled (we live near 25 miles from school) they need to get together with friends.  He makes no bones about being unhappy if asked to participate or help with an extracurricular.  He hates going to the programs, and doesn't like doing the taxi thing (which only happens if I need to stay home with a sick kid or am sick myself- so maybe three times a year or less).  So while I love the man and wish he loved me, he also vexes me to no end on some things. 

If we didn't have kids, we would be fine as a couple.  I know the kids drain him.  Matter of fact, it was when I got pregnant with the third that he had his huge panic attacks and then when he was about three hunny started the ssri's.  He has 'bad days' where he's fighting anxiety often only when the household gets noisy or a kid is too demanding.  If he'd just own that, and then allow me to take kids when he needs chill time, things would be better.  He gets angry if I notice he's gone into shut down mode, I'll rally the kids and say "kids! lets to do X!" he gets so angry that I took them away.  But he never admits that that was what he needed.  He plays the martyr.  

Leader:

that would be me.  The only reason he feels like the leader is because I defer to him or allow it.  I treat him as the head when he's home, I back him up in front of the kids and such.  But honestly, I'm the leader.  He is absent all day and really most nights (because he's 'chilling' on his phone)  Being a leader isn't choosing where to eat.  Being a leader is an action of doing stuff that needs doing.

Good Times: We used to do all sorts of stuff together. Fishing, hanging out.  He's really been my only friend.  He has a list of like 70 reasons he loves me. (mostly looks based, lol) We have a good time when there are no kids involved.  The kids are great kids, I don't understand why they drain him so.

Carebear

So the problem is we have a cycle of ups and downs.
He knows that my period is a trigger.  I've told him before that I absolutely need relationship comfort and affection from him during my period.  Every month, when I get my period, he goes into quiet mode.  He's not mean or anything.  It's as if he figures he's not gonna get any, so why bother.  He retreats onto his phone, has a lot less to talk with me about and does not cuddle or touch sexual or non-sexual.  He might reach over and pat my hand.  
We have had so many discussions or fights over what he or I do or do not do, that I started keeping a journal.  This is what I've found out:
After my period I'm more moody.  I've known this for about a year.  Drives me crazy.  i don't really get pms, I get post ms.  
However, by journaling, I may have found the cause. 
He does his whole shut down thing during my period.  I usually give him a blow job on day one or two.  He still shuts down and so he doesn't get any more, typically.  I get sad by day four and by day six I'm just mad.  Then he's mad at me for being mad at him for no reason and his silent treatment lasts about four more days.  Then I will just initiate because that's the only thing that brings him out of his funk.  It doesn't help me, however, it just reinforces that sex is the only thing he likes me for.  I know that sounds stupid, but one thing this forum has taught me is that sex is very important.  Matter of fact, men love their wives, but without sex - no dice, baby.  So sex is the way to keep my husband, and I know it.  It feels terrible, and I LIKE sex.  I just don't always like that I HAVE to do X to get Y (have sex to get him to like/be nice/ be normal to me) 
Here's an example of my notes:
In August, on the 24th (I'm telling you, I keep detailed notes, lol) I told him point blank what I needed to feel loved during that time and he gave affection during my period. He got multiple bjs,  I had no post ms moodiness.  We had sexy time an average of every other day during that month. 15 times. 
Every other month, we skip sex during and the week after my period.  Catching up with post ovulation sex for an average of 9 days per month (including bjs)  
He swears I'm just absolutely BSC.  He actually said as much last night.  He said I am crazy for two weeks and he just waits it out until I can be normal again.  He refused to listen to reason, that I keep a diary, that my "bsc" is triggered by his withdrawal that perfectly mimics his withdrawal during the after m/c phase when he had an affair.  I asked if he was calling me crazy just to hurt my feelings and he said 'no' he really felt I was crazy.  So this is why I'm here, I need help. I'm a very logical, thinking person.  

Carebear

I guess I never posed my questions. 
How on earth do I get him to realize that his withdrawal is a huge trigger. I get all those anxiety symptoms. He, of all people, should understand that it's very real. He tells me it's not real. I'm just looking for a reason to be mad. 
Just being around him is draining. If I act as OI as possible and act normal, he stays aloof. Then, it's near impossible for me to not be hurt and angry. Those two feelings manifest in similar ways with me. I get irritable and sullen. My frame stinks. 
Weve been through four years of off and on again with each other. Is there hope that it will get better?  
I don't think he's very sorry about the affairs. He feels that that was what he needed to do to remain sane. Did I mention he also swapped photos of me with internet strangers?  A wife swap thing?  I've never gotten anything past a 'I'm sorry I hurt you'. He just doesn't get that that was huge and is real. For several months after I was afraid of being in public for fear I'd be recognized. Any time a guy checks me out it's in the back of my mind that he could have a naked pic of me. 
My husband thinks all the hurt is just make believe.  He will always turn it around and say that I ignored him for ten years. 
Gosh, I'm tired. I really just want to run away from it all. 
What can we do to get whole again?

JellyBean

This is a man who is generally disrespectful, ignores your physical and mental health needs, cheats on you, blameshifts to convince you his cheating was your fault, has never been very enthusiastic about being a good partner, and gives you to feel unsafe and lonely within your marriage. 

What's the appeal here?

Tennee

@amblrgirl  

Carebear

@JellyBean I ask myself that a lot. 
He's comfortable. I've known him over half my life. He wasn't always so...jerkish. I actually think I've made some of it by nerfing my own self in deference to him for so long. It's the status quo. I'm still noodling over that one. I am a completely different person when I'm not around him. Even at home. He gets home and I shift into step ford wife mode. 
He feels so darn good. Touch is my  #1 LL. I really miss his touch when he's aloof/withdrawn. After he falls asleep, I'll cuddle up to him just to have contact. 
He wasn't always like this. Maybe he was. I remember after 15 years or so of being together, I found out he chewed. 15 years and I never had a clue!  Can you imagine? How daft I can be. Smh. 
Anyway- I just really want this guy to want me. To understand me. Maybe that's not in the cards anymore. I think he really does want that, too. I'm near convinced the meds have a lot to do with his weirdness. He swears up and down that he spooned on me night before last. I can guarantee he did no such thing. I think he really thinks he did. He was so frustrated I wouldn't agree with him. But I was equally frustrated because he didn't believe me.  And it goes round. I tried talking mundane stuff tonight. He's still mad:  I got one word answers. So I just rolled over to check here. He can hold grudges for a long time, though!

Amblgirl is actually the one person on here I closely pay attention to. I wanted to page her myself, lol. 

Adam_S

One thing that stands out at me is the medical stuff you mentioned.

What SSRI is he on, what dose and for what reason?

SSRI's can cause, among other things, blunting of mood, low libido and a general lack of interest in one's surroundings. It's possible that the one he is on isn't helping. Some options might include:

1. Try a different SSRI. There are loads of different ones out there and all differ somewhat in their effect and side effects as well. If he's on a relatively old and crappy one, it might be that switching to a different SSRI might help some of his symptoms.

2. Augment the SSRI or switch to another type of medication. Mirtazapine and Wellbutrin are two antidepressants which should not interfere with his libido. It might also be worth taking another medication alongside his SSRI. Doctors here in Aus will sometimes prescribe a low dose of a drug called Arapiprazole alongside an SSRI if the patient is having problems with sexual function. Wellbutrin might be another option. Talk to your family doctor.

3. Has he had his testosterone levels checked? Low T can look a lot like depression in men and a lot of what you're describing - low libido, webcams/porn, general lack of drive or interest in life in general could all be caused by that, not depression. If you can get him to check it out then it might be worth looking into.

Carebear

I would would like to clarify; he's not - as far as I can tell - actively cheating, watching porn or anything of the sort. All that was 2012 and prior. 

He's on Zoloft 100 mg. I've talked him into cutting back over the past few months. He is around 80 mg for the past month. He's cutting 10% on a slow schedule. He will stay at that 80 for about 10-12 weeks. 

The medical is tough. I know who his dr is, but I don't think I'm on any of the release forms. I'll have to check. 

He will not get his T checked. I've tried. He loves his meds. He gets everyone he can to take those pills. His entire immediate family save one sister is on them from my husband's encouragement. The only reason he's cutting back on his is because he was experiencing loss of erection mid sex. That went away after cutting the first 10% off. 

I agree re the meds need to go first before I do any type of ultimatum. 
I just can't figure out how to get to a position of strength when daily life is a struggle right now. 
I just need to post a map and do it. A real map. Y'all keep on me to get that done. 

Adam_S

Zoloft is very good for treating anxiety but it's horrible for side effects in terms of sex drive and ability to perform. 100mg is a fair bit too. FWIW my wife is on 200mg of Zoloft, which is about as high as you can go, plus an antipsychotic. This is not good from a sex drive, or indeed any kind of drive point of view. What saved us was her going on 10mg arapiprazole which is just fantastic in terms of giving her drive and energy. It also gave her back her libido, which is good news for me. This may not be appropriate for him because her diagnosis is very different to his but there are options. Mirtazapine, for example, can be used to treat anxiety and apparently has a habit of giving men random erections. It's not without its side effects too but it won't bugger up his libido like SSRI's will. Some people find taking Welbutrin along with an SSRI can help too.

Gradually trying to reduce his dosage of Zoloft doesn't sound like such a bad idea but it would be a really good idea to get some CBT or other therapy too. Really, unless he's had multiple episodes of depression he shouldn't be on antidepressants forever and the goal should really be trying to get him to a point where he can cope without the meds hence the therapy.

I'd really kick his arse to get his T levels checked too.

I know it's tough but try and work with him on this. Get an appointment together to go and see his doctor, discuss your concerns and ask what options there are.

Maria

The pic swapping would be a huge issue for me. In my mind that's an even worse betrayal than webcamming, because he massively violated your personal, private boundaries.

Anyway.
Yes, you are right. You need to MAP. You must get to a place where you can demand he address his issues and ultimatum him over that.
Could you support yourself and your children? What qualifications or what job do you have or is this something you need to work on?

Stop nerfing your personality and allow yourself to be honest and truthful. Don't pick up his slack.I f plates are left on the counter they don't get washed. Your teenagers and your husband will run out of plates soon. You just fix your own and your toddler's dinner.

Don't treat him as the head when he's not. Being the Captain is earned! Everyone deserves basic respect and politeness - and you owe your husband that -, but the special kind of respect a true authority evokes must be earned and should not be given without reason. Otherwise, how should your husband realize that he very badly needs to work on his issues? Or actually, realize there ARE issues.

 Something I don't understand. You wrote that you tried to make him feel less guilty about the EA. But firstly, he DOESN'T feel guilty to begin with, does he? You wrote he thought it was justified because he couldn't get sex from you. Secondly, why would you want to spare him feelings of regret in the first place? Surely remorse is the adequate reaction to being unfaithful! It seems to me you are trying to fix something that a) your husband doesn't even view as fix-worthy and that b) is his responsibility to fix.

Carebear

Thank you, all, so far. You guys are making me think, which I need because I'm tunnel vision focused. 
The affairs were four years ago. I guess I thought I was over it, but I'm obviously not. 
Over the years, I've brought up how it still bothers me and I get the "I said I'm sorry and meant it"  talk. 
@Adam_S he will not go through any doctor or counseling. He thinks I'm the crazy one. 
@Maria, I don't know if he feels guilty. I know he's sorry he got caught. I know he's sorry he had to do it. I know he's sorry-but that question made me wonder exactly how and what kind of sorry. If he feels justified, then maybe that's not sorry enough and subconsciously I know that. I want to spare his feelings because I love him. I don't want him to feel hurt or sad or upset. That's probably the reasons I completely live in his frame and try to do anything to make him happy. That is probably the toughest question I've ever been asked. Right now that's the answer for it on the surface. I haven't had much time to really think on it. 
Right now he's telling me that the crazy cycle has to stop and I'm actually loathe to tell him (again) that he has to help with that because he's at least talking to me even though he's being hurtful with his comments. (We're texting-both of us are working today)
Could I support myself and kids?  Well, my professional background is in banking fraud protection-I'm terribly out of date. I also have a trade skill. I've been a SAHM for almost 11 years, so I'm sure to get alimony. I'm not there yet. Honestly-at this point the only reason I'd divorce him would be if that is something that would make him happy. I'm not a quitter. I'd like to keep my family intact. I just cannot 'fake it til I make it" anymore. This constant withdrawal really bothers me. Some of it may be a hormone thing, but he's got to meet me halfway here. Not put it all on me. 

Pen_and_Sword

I want to spare his feelings because I love him. I don't want him to feel hurt or sad or upset. 

This statement (and I'm critiquing the statement, not your feelings) is such a shallow parody of love, that I don't think it really represents what's going on. Love wants what's best for someone, not merely to spare them being upset.

If your toddler had a diaper accident (or accidentally-on-purpose, like mine did once), and then, with poop-covered hands, wanted SO badly to eat crackers, would you allow it because you loved her and didn't want her to be sad or upset? Or would you gently but firmly refuse to let her eat until the poop was gone?

Your husband, by your accounting, is behaving like a terrible husband who blames you for breaking his word, and refuses to take responsibility for his actions ("He's sorry he had to do it? WTF?), and gaslights to support his self-esteem. And according to your accounting, he's getting worse, not better. Becoming a self-centered jerk who ducks parental responsibilities and blames other people for his problems is not what's best for him. If loving him were the only issue at stake here, I think you would be anxious to save him from himself.

It sounds like maybe he is your main or only source of validation, and you're afraid of losing that. Which is entirely understandable, but might bear some thought.

Carebear

@Pen_and_Sword you're absolutely right. He really is my only source of anything. I go out with my girlfriends once a year. (No, I'm not kidding-and it's only for less than eight hours) have no job. That's my choosing. We don't even go out unless I arrange a sitter and do all the work involved. We aren't ever alone.  I dont even take a shower when he's home without clearing 'leaving the toddler with him' with him.  He's never explicitly made me do that. But over the years of him being upset with me (?) I just do it. I'm not sure why. He would vehemently deny that I have to ask him if it's ok, but it's what I do and I do it for a reason; what reason, I'm not sure. 

Maria

And here you have a huge MAP item outlined for you:
Add meaningful activities to your life. Find a purpose, a mission, a hobby - whatever - separate from your husband. Make your life full and vibrant and interesting. Find some alone time. You are entitled to do so! Too much closeness can be stifling - for both. It's very draining to be the only source of anything for someone.

HowlAtTheMoon

It sounds like a covert contract.

**If I am super submissive,  overly nice, a doormat, and always put his needs and desire first, maybe he will finally be nice to me, want me, and tell me I'm pretty.**

I was the same way and it was a disaster. And he had an EA as well. He will never say so, but I know now that my endless parade of DLV behaviour must have driven him subconciously bonkers and made him lose all respect.

You need to crush your Nice Girl. Nice Girl is so needy and not much fun. It will seem very counterintuitive at first.

Eta, you are not responsible for his affair, but you ARE responsible for how you let him treat you now.

Angeline

If he won't go to any doctor, how is he getting SSRI's?

never_again

Something that jumped out at me was that you asked him to marry you and then convinced him to elope.  I'm going to suggest that he "went along with it" probably because the sex was so good and he didn't have any other options at the time.  

That, combined with his affair, online shenanigans, gas-lighting and other disrespect of you points to him carrying a whole lot of resentment around.  Like he thinks he missed out on life by marrying you.

That's on him, but something you need to understand you might never be able to overcome.

HildaCorners

Carebear said:

Pen_and_Sword you're absolutely right. He really is my only source of anything. ...

I lived like this for a while and it was a huge mistake.

You're basically putting your trust in your husband to be the World's Best Captain. You are giving him your life and soul to care for. Sounds wonderfully romantic (in a blue pill way), but 99.44% of all men can't deal with this level of responsibility for another person.

We tell men not to orbit their wives ... women can orbit husbands, but at about Jupiter distance. [Far away, but not too far.] You sound closer in than Mercury.

Now, take a man who has his own set of flaws, some of which include less than wonderful empathy, gaslighting, and emotional neglect ... there's no surprise that you'll feel used and ignored most of the time.

There is a way out.

You have to be your own source of everything, or be able to be at short notice. Don't wait for him to tell you to breathe, shower, or leave the house — use your own good judgement and do these things on your own. It will seem scary at first, you'll make mistakes, but you'll also become a more interesting woman.

In my last divorce, I could see it was either end the marriage or completely surrender my soul, and I was not willing to do that. [He was asking me to take action that was a crime, and had rage meltdowns when I said no.] It took me a good long time (several years) before I could say I was able to run my own life well, and I'm still not doing as well as I'd like. If I hadn't spent 20 years making him "my everything", I would have been on my feet a lot sooner.

Carebear

We had a long drawn out discussion last night. He wanted a truce, just forget about the latest silent cycle and move on. Normally that's what we do and we go back around again a month or two later. So I didn't truce. He didn't like that. His MO during a fight/discussion is little jabs. "I guess you're not done. Wanna keep going? Ok, let's just keep fighting"
it was more a talk. No big emotions. 
There were some things that popped out that give me cause to think on. One thing he said was that nothing is ever good enough for me. I'll never feel loved because I have abandonment issues. This may be true and I need to work on this. 
To answer questions from yesterday. 
@Maria I am working on getting a map written. I have an ok outline going so far. 

@HowlAtTheMoon huge nice girl DLVs really hit an ouch spot. I know this stuff, but didn't recognize it in myself.

@Angeline the SSRIs are prescribed by his doctor. His previous doctor told him to get exercise and a life and my husband didn't feel he had time for that. So he found a pill pusher. He hasn't ever had bloodwork. When his Rx ends at the end of a year he calls and gets a new one. That's it. I flushed his lorazepam years ago because he was 'needing' it a couple/three times a week just to cope. 
On the med front: he's supposed to be on 80mg for another six weeks (12 total) he told me he had been cutting some off his pills to get off faster. So maybe the latest crazy is med related. 

@never_again he doesn't think he's missed out on anything. However, he holds huge resentment for me not caring about him over ten years ago. I may as well tell you, the taken advantage of him above in my triage: I was out with my horses. I discovered this was a big problem and I couldn't balance horses and my husband and I sold them in 2006. I go on one trail ride per year on friend's horses just for the past two years. I'm gone about six hours.  For eight years I totally cut myself off from something I've done my whole life and my husband knew about from the beginning.  That should be enough of a repentance I should think. 

@HildaCorners sounds,again, like I'm parading DLV and neediness. Thank you. This is something actionable I can work on. 

never_again

Oy.  OK, I can relate.  Hang on.  This could get rough.

I married a horsewoman.  There was no man on the planet happier than me the day I married her. I teared up when I saw her walking down the aisle hand-in-hand with my step-kids.

9 months into the marriage she abandoned me physically and emotionally because she suddenly decided she had enough energy for me or the horses and the horses were more important.  

Of course, she never told me that.  After almost 4 years of doing anything and everything to try to recover a marriage when I had no clue what the problem was, I left.  That was almost 7 years ago.  I walked away from everything I ever worked for in my life and started completely over at age 50, simply because I couldn't emotionally handle the prospect of having to fight her in court.  The adoration and love I felt for that woman mutated into pure, unadulterated hatred.  

I knew about her passion for horses, too, and I supported it.  But I never, ever expected that I would be replaced by it.  If the horses were so important, where was the emotional abuse and disrespect while we were dating?  She could control it, she could balance it, so why did that end after the marriage?  It was like she waited until she got the 110% commitment, because she knew I would walk if it happened during the engagement.

Perspective-wise it's like you had an affair, but maybe worse.  Some men can recover from an affair, they can become they guy their wife wants to have an affair with (the MAP).  But how do you compete with a horse?  How do you become so awesome that your wife says "I want to ride you instead of that 1200 lb. package of muscle and steel that gives me such huge dopamine and never, ever asks anything in return!"  

Maybe it's possible.  But I've met enough horsewomen that I believe, in most cases, it's unlikely. The vast majority of men simply cannot compete in the dopamine department.  

You recognized it and fixed it yourself.  But that kind of resentment is hard to overcome.  Honestly, after that 4 years of Hell, I don't think there is anything that my ex could have done to make it right with me.