(About as 911 as it gets please move to that category if appropriate.)
This is probably it. I've just told my wife that its over. I am on the couch, she is in bed, and I am trying to work out how I can change this spontaneous phase 6 into a more of Phase 4 without losing face. It probably is over, but any advice on how to pull back a little (if the opportunity is there) much appreciated.
Really need to have a little more time, my map is making good progress, I just had a blow up on our anniversary - quite understandably given the complete lack of acknowledgement of our 21 years together from her.
Please, just advice on how I *might* be able to alter the ultimatum / ending without going back to start.
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Note - If you a FO with a Lazy Bear or Low-T husband, ignore everything I say. It probably doesn't apply
"As he works on his MAP, he's going to do things that piss you off. He has to." - Steu2817
"In a world of Alpha's there is no peace for anyone.....welcome to Somalia enjoy your stay" - Highlander2
2 children 17 and 14
Mapping for 1 year. A lot to do but a lot better than I was.
Wife been stuck on red for 2 years. My pent up frustration / anxiety is intense. All very well talking of O.I. and Oneitis etc but when you haven't had it for that long, other than playing around or leaving what other option is there? The anxiety this causes is seriously affecting my work. A counsellor I spoke to recently said that most men would have quit / blown up by now and that it is totally normal and understandable for the anxiety of this situation to be playing on my mind 90% of the time - hence seriously debilitating my life.
I have tried communicating, telling my wife we need to communicate etc. but she just ignores it. She is seeing a counsellor and I know she talks to her about this stuff, but she won't talk to me.
I do practice the STFU, but it is almost impossible with the constant anxiety I feel.
She doesn't tell me she loves me, no passionate or affectionate touch, just generic cuddles and pecks. She rejects me whenever I attempt, joke, play drive bys etc. We awoke early this morning, our anniversary, we cuddled, I cuddled closer etc and "No, why can't you just cuddle me?" as if all I ever want is sex.. (she seems to forget the hundreds of just cuddles..)
So a little later is when I texted her (my daughter was home so I couldn't speak out loud about this) telling her that we are either a couple or not, blah blah, and I need to know today that she wants this relationship to work, at least to try - I even ended saying just a smiley face would do as a reply. Nothing, not even a mention of the text, no reply. In the evening we went out to a BBQ, had time alone, plenty of opportunity. She just carried on as normal. I gave her a necklace as an anniversary gift, she said thank you but not even a happy anniversary.
So we were in bed going to sleep, and I Just had enough. I got up told her that I was serious about needing at least a reply today, and I am over the lack respect she shows me. "its over, I'm on the couch and well sort out the details tomorrow."
So that is a few details about today. I have more mapping to do, think I am making good progress and could see some big personal changes soon, but I have just nuked things.
The fact that you felt you couldn't have a calm conversation about the future of your marriage with a teenager somewhere in the house tells me a lot. And it isn't positive for you.
If your facts are true (absolutely no physical contact except not-too-close cuddles, her complete lack of acknowledging your anniversary) and this has been the state of the marriage for many years ... maybe it's better to just end it. Don't tell me you're staying married for the kids ... they're teens, and can spot a dead marriage faster than you can. (Mine did.)
But since we don't know your history (triage) and exactly what you've been doing to turn things around (your MAP), any suggestions we give are pure guesswork. You need more than guessing and projection from internet strangers ... a call with Athol would be your best action.
Enneagram 5w4. I'm researching what that means, before designing t-shirt art about it.
"I feel no shame in making lavish use of the strongest muscles, namely male ones (but my own strongest muscle is dedicated to the service of men - noblesse oblige). I don't begrudge men one whit of their natural advantages as long as they respect mine. I am not an unhappy pseudomale; I am female and like it that way." RAH
And I did finish my OP with " Please, just advice on how I *might* be able to alter the ultimatum / ending without going back to start. " because I do not need to be told I did this wrong or have I read the books etc.
I..j.u.s.t.. n.e.e.d. .h.e.l.p... you can criticise my mistakes later all you want, right now I am in a situation. It is 2.05 am in the morning, I will be exhausted tomorrow and I need a plan.
So your advice is?
My wife was rushing around getting ready for work and my daughter was getting ready to go out also, both in/out kitchen/ bathroom and in the same vicinity. Just was not the place or space to tackle this. I have engineered and created space to talk, to explain my expectations etc in and out of the home, via letter etc . But met with little to no response. And it has nothing to do with not being a calm conversation - that wasn't even mentioned by me. It would be calm, just not something I would want my 14 year old to overhear.
I think that I should end it most of the time, except I do actually want it to work most of the time. Until I have taken my map as far as I can - and I do have ways to go - I don't want to cut off my nose..
I am like many other guys on here from what I read, mapping and doing ok here, not so well there, struggling with this bit etc. Maybe I can provide more detail once I have some ideas for this current situation. If I do not manage to turn it around, it is over in a few hours. 21 years of marriage, 2 children family all over. So please, if you have some suggestions no mater how unlikely to work, throw them at me and I can consider them in my situation. That is all I am asking for right now.
You didn't lose a battle, you haven't lost the war. She doesn't even acknowledge you're on a battlefield, much less that you're even the enemy. You are something akin to a 2-year old throwing a tantrum, in her eyes.
You are zero, nothing right now, so that's where you start from. The only way is up.
I'm not being critical, I'm explaining your tactical position.
When you get up tomorrow, go on with your life. If she brings it up, don't apologize but do say you handled yourself poorly. Then go on with your life and start being awesome.
At some point, you might have to deal with as a CMN, though she probably has so little respect for you that it likely won't make a difference.
@Tennee has a tag-line "Fall down 7 times, get up 8."
Remember, the stay plan is the same as the go plan. So go be awesome.
If you don't want to do that yet, just drop it. I bet your wife will not end the marriage over this conversation. It seems that she has what she wants for the time being.
Consider it a misstep and schedule a call with Athol.
Consider one does not play succesdful chess thinking one move at a time.
Texting it's over then asking us what's next, suggests no plan.
Moved to 911
Unless there are clear, measurable steps towards your goals, it's quite possible there hasn't been concrete progress at all. Just thinking about a MAP every once in a while is not the same as running one.
This really isn't a "yeah, you tell her!" kind of place to seek out only when you've had a blowup.
Remember to play!
Do the right thing, whether anyone is watching or not.
Be married, until you are not.
Email address: angeline.greenwood@att.net
Your wife gave you a Phase 4 Ultimatum last year.
From that phase four ultimatum, there are only four outcomes to chose from. This is from Athol:
(1) Toleration - more of the same
(2) Cheating - get sex outside the marriage, or open marriage et al
(3) Divorce - it's never going to be fixed, so I'm on my way
(4) Improved Marriage - we get the help we need and move ahead into something more positive.
Your wife took number 2, Cheating, and number 4, Improved Marriage, off of the table last year. She flat out told you that you either tolerate things as is, or you divorce.
During her ultimatum, you removed number 3, Divorce.
YOU Eliminating number 3, Divorce, verbally to your wife took away ANY cards you could play. You are left with no Hand at all. In her mind, you accepted only number 1, Toleration, as an option.
When you look at it that way, is there any question at all as to why your wife doesn't really care if you huff and puff and threaten to blow the house down?
The reason is that she is confident that only option number 1 could possibly be in play, and that you are just throwing a mini-tantrum like your kids might, and you will settle back down tomorrow and be a good little boy again.
Why did you eliminate 3, Divorce, from your options out loud to your wife?
Exactly why are you trying to fix this? Is it really only because of the kids? Exactly how so for the kids? Be specific with the reasons why you want to stay. Put them here in this thread with details.
I can tell you already from your triage and this thread that your reason for staying is not just the kids.
You are scared to death of divorcing. With the bad case of Oneitis that you have, nothing is ever going to change for you. That needs to be your biggest Red to overcome.
I have no dog in this fight. If you divorce or stay, it will make no difference in my life as a stranger from the internet trying to help you think this through. I am trying to get you to think hard about why you removed the only card that might work from your hand.
And then I hope you will decide if you really want to continue to not have Divorce as an option, with you fully and completely realizing in your heart, not just in your brain, that the odds of fixing the marriage are nil without at least the threat of Divorce.
FWIW, I am in the same boat as you, having gotten the same ultimatum from my wife, but I specifically told my wife that number 3, Divorce, is on the table, and in fact is the next hand I am going to play, but she doesn't seem to care.
I plan on filing in a few more months.
I used to be exactly where you are, unable to even fathom getting divorced, but through personal growth, and largely because of this forum and Athol's advice with One Hour Calls, I evolved and grew to where I am today--no more Oneitis, and ready to move on and find happiness elsewhere, because my wife made very clear in her Phase 4 Ultimatum that I am not ever going to get it in my current relationship.
“I’m going to plead with you, do not cross us. Because if you do, the survivors will write about what we do here for 10,000 years.” General James Mattis, USMC
If you are going to leave for the night again in the future, don't sleep on the couch. Go to a hotel.
“I’m going to plead with you, do not cross us. Because if you do, the survivors will write about what we do here for 10,000 years.” General James Mattis, USMC
Tough love time. I get that you are frustrated.... in more ways than one. But here are the facts:
1. You are sexually attracted to your wife and want sex.
2. Your wife is not sexually attracted to you, and therefore doesn't want sex. By your own admission, her sex rank is above yours.
3. No amount of words or explaining your wants and needs to her are going to make her want to have sex with you.
4. Right now, she doesn't respect you, because well...
- She doesn't need you for financial security and your earnings don't really impact her security, or the security for the kids.
- From a physical standpoint, you are not in great shape.
- I don't see signs in your posts that you actively lead the family. You seem to be intimidated by her trust fund.
Not financially successful + not in shape + not a leader.... why would she respect you?5. When I read your posts, I see what appear to be numerous covert contracts. "If I do X, then she will do Y."
You can't be MAPPING to as a means to get sex. As you improve yourself, she may or may not regain respect, she may or may not become sexually attracted. But you have to MAP for you and you alone.
And yes, your failure to follow through on the ultimatum probably sets you all the way back to Phase I.
Right now, you need to be focused 100% on improving yourself.
Note - If you a FO with a Lazy Bear or Low-T husband, ignore everything I say. It probably doesn't apply
"As he works on his MAP, he's going to do things that piss you off. He has to." - Steu2817
"In a world of Alpha's there is no peace for anyone.....welcome to Somalia enjoy your stay" - Highlander2
You don't have to file, but knowledge is good and can demystify the potential.
But dude, you bought her a necklace when she deserved nothing , so papers is probably the only thing left that might get her to engage
Good luck
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Fuck Culture. Live your life - Beatrice
Shes not buying this from you at all. She holds the cards and power here not you. Texting an Ultimatum makes you look weak and a DLV
Women don't buy into weakness at all. Never will either.
Into Phase 3..
Those Who Dare......Win. "What gives you fear today...Gives you Strength tomorrow.."