Guilt

leoslayer

Anybody else deal with this? Twice a year like today I feel very guilty that I'm not out there with my friends.

I know logically I'm too old. I know logically that I did my job and that circumstances were different 26 years ago.

I just can't shake the guilt sometimes. The guilt of not being deployed of not sharing that sacrifice.

Angeline

I just deleted a very old thread I posted on this very thing, because it was too identifying of Cdr. Awesome.

You DID share that sacrifice. You volunteered too.

Please turn that guilt into talking. Even if it isn't formal therapy, go find some fellow vets and swap stories and give some interservice shit and make some human connections. If the idea of doing it to help yourself grates on you, then think of it as a mission to be the person who maybe hears the story of someone else who needs it even more - that's how Cdr. Awesome approaches it, and it makes him feel less helpless than he would if he asked for help himself.

Tennee

Part of this isn't guilt; it's about your Mammoth.  You get that, right?

RebuildingHusband

I don't understand guilt. It just seems like such a waste of time and energy to me. But I know I'm a bit twisted and have empathy problems. 

leoslayer

Tennee said:

Part of this isn't guilt; it's about your Mammoth.  You get that, right?

I don't know how that's even remotely possible. The two things are completely unrelated.

My livelihood being taken from me by those POS at the DOJ didn't happen until well after 9/11. 

My guilt started with the first deployments.

Tennee

leoslayer said:

Tennee said:

Part of this isn't guilt; it's about your Mammoth.  You get that, right?

I don't know how that's even remotely possible. The two things are completely unrelated.

My livelihood being taken from me by those POS at the DOJ didn't happen until well after 9/11. 

My guilt started with the first deployments.

My point is it's not all 'guilt'...it's the larger hole that needs to be filled.

HildaCorners

Riffing off Angeline's post ... would it help you to volunteer at a VA hospital or other organization that helps veterans?

Or volunteer as an adult in the Boy Scouts?

I've always found this kind of guilt is lessened by volunteer work, or helping others in some way that touches on the cause you your guilt.

[If I ever have enough money, I want to buy a multi-family home and rent out units at very low rent to middle-class SAH parents and kids fleeing abuse. I could have used this, I know others need it. The rich have money, the poor have lots of places to get help, the middle class women get squeezed from both ends. Doing this would make me feel less guilty about the handouts I had to take.]

leoslayer

HildaCorners said:

Riffing off Angeline's post ... would it help you to volunteer at a VA hospital or other organization that helps veterans?

Or volunteer as an adult in the Boy Scouts?

I've always found this kind of guilt is lessened by volunteer work, or helping others in some way that touches on the cause you your guilt.

[If I ever have enough money, I want to buy a multi-family home and rent out units at very low rent to middle-class SAH parents and kids fleeing abuse. I could have used this, I know others need it. The rich have money, the poor have lots of places to get help, the middle class women get squeezed from both ends. Doing this would make me feel less guilty about the handouts I had to take.]

The only thing I really do is when my closet friend who is still active gets deployed I take care of his wife for him.

I fix things that break, work in the yard or pick up their boys if she is stuck in the OR.  

Or if she needs to get out I'll have her join myself and C ( at the time) or V.

It does not stop me from telling him I wish I could be helping on Ops. 

leoslayer

I don't feel like this all the time just a few times a year. I just had a bad night last night. I was alone and it kept me up.

I can say it didn't stop me from stuffing my face yesterday.

I might be mental but I'm not insane!

Friz

leoslayer said:

Anybody else deal with this? Twice a year like today I feel very guilty that I'm not out there with my friends.

I know logically I'm too old. I know logically that I did my job and that circumstances were different 26 years ago.

I just can't shake the guilt sometimes. The guilt of not being deployed of not sharing that sacrifice.

You've done your duty. You've already sacrificed.  The heart that you are showing here tells me a lot.
As you progressed through the ranks/experience of your duty, you taught the newer, younger guys how to do the job in order get themselves back home in one piece.
That's what we do. As we learn, we teach and pass our wisdom on to the next(younger) group.
Your handiwork, experience, wisdom is in your successors. You have nothing to feel guilty about. In fact, you should feel proud that you have done your duty and passed the wisdom on to the rest of the people.
Visit the VFW, American Legion, FRA, VA center, or just go to the nearest memorial and say hello to another vet.
Never forget what you have done, but focus on the good/fun times.

MissD

Skimming the last few posts, have to confess I first read menstrual instead of mental.

Then I realized what thread I'm in 

Derp 

SaigoTakamori

All the time

What @Angeline said

Crashaxe

Miss it? Yes.

Proud of doing it? Yes.

Guilt? Never.

I did the things others would never do. I did my part.

Are you sure it isn't survivor's guilt? Idk enough about what you did and where and when you did it back then to rule survivor's guilt out.

leoslayer

Crashaxe said:

Miss it? Yes.

Proud of doing it? Yes.

Guilt? Never.

I did the things others would never do. I did my part.

Are you sure it isn't survivor's guilt? Idk enough about what you did and where and when you did it back then to rule survivor's guilt out.

No not survivors guilt. I was in during relative peace time. Other than Gulf 1 there weren't any threats. And Gulf War was over so fast that they put us on alert got us spun up then we just sat for 30 days. Couldn't go do anything without calling the office and telling them exactly where you'd be. 

After that was over Clinton RIFd everything. 

At the time I thought well nobody's going to be stupid enough to do that again. Took a voluntary out to try and let friends with kids not get RIFd.

If I would've known what was going to happen I would've taken the slot for selection that was offered. This was before Desert Storm. I thought well, I don't see any threats so why get in the pipeline?

Then when the deployments started after 9/11 I thought I should be with those guys. But I had been out for 10 years. New House new business a second boy was newborn and I thought I also need to stay here.

I had a friend of 22 years cone off deployment couldn't switch off and eventually drank himself to death in less than 180 days. It was no different than if he had put a pistol in his mouth which he almost did.

Other team guys I know I see them out together at a bar none of them talking. All with the stare, they can't turn it off.

Logically I get that I couldn't predict the future. I understand that if I had made different decisions that I wouldn't have my three children now. That's a horrible thought not having them.

I also get that I did nothing deserving of guilt. I did my job. I didn't try to duck any deployments. Got to do some cool stuff. I had some really cool jobs. The President, The Vice President, SecDef, Billy Joel, Atlantic Star.

But even knowing all that every now and then it raises it's head. My good friend was in the jungle(worldwide deployments)getting shot at by bad guys for 6 mths and I was sitting here in comfort.

I don't know why this happens to me.

Tennee

You have to put Woulda, Coulda, Shoulda in their place man, you cannot let them rule you.   Or they consume you. 

I keep going back to this same point (your MAP), which you gloss over, and that is:  What does the path in front of Leo look like?   Cause it can't be the past.  What is your Mammoth?  What does 2 years from now look like?  What drives you?  Excites you?  Where are you going?  And its cool if you say "I don't know" - cause then you get to formulate a direction.   I'm telling you there is a void, and its affecting you. 

Fuck Woulda, Coulda, Shoulda, you can't call do-over for 1995 man.   If you need help with this, get it - See:  VA Appointment, which I'll again tell you to take seriously and don't flippantly dismiss it.  

There is only one path:  it is the one in front of you.  The past is gone - just memories.   You can drive tomorrow.   And the rest of your life. 

Crashaxe

It looks and sounds like survivor's guilt to me, brother. That I have had. Fortunately, I was able to get over it on my own and quickly. Good for me, but sadly for everyone else, I am the VERY. RARE. exception. 

Survivor's guilt doesn't just happen when someone you are close to dies. It happens with injuries too.

And, an injury doesn't have to be a physical injury. Mental injuries are EVERY BIT as real as physical injuries, and so much worse in so many ways. Doctors can see and treat physical injuries sooooooo much better than they can see and treat mental injuries.

Physical injuries are generally obvious, whereas mental injuries can usually only be properly identified when the person with the injury is self-aware enough to see the problem in him/herself and be functional enough to step forward, ask for help, AND THEN be diligent in getting good treatment, even if that means firing a doc or multiple docs and finding another who can correctly and adequately treat the problem.

Mental injuries are also harder to treat because everyone is different. Each person's unique life experiences make the injury completely unique to that person. What works to help one person can fail miserably in another. 

I believe that mental injuries are like Alcoholism, in that the person with the mental injury never truly sheds the problem, and needs to work at maintaining their mental health every day for the rest of their life to make sure that they don't relapse.

NOBODY goes to war or in the life theater of emergency services/medicine without getting affected by it. Everyone gets hurt mentally. Some worse than others, due to their background, or their individual experiences, or both.

I'll tell you some of the thinking that I use on an occasional basis to continue to inoculate myself from falling back into the pit, adapted to your situation.  I'll warn you up front that it might sound kind of cold to you. I think of it as being pragmatic, and have been told by the best that it is a great method of thinking to keep things at bay:


You weren't meant to be there. Protecting and raising your family is every bit as noble of a duty as serving overseas. It isn't less. It is just different. A lot of guys redeploy and redeploy to avoid their family problems or because they become selfish and enjoy getting their war on more than they want to live a more mundane family life and use the, "They can't win fight without me" line as an excuse. Bullshit. There is always someone else that will take that spot on the perimeter. That is the way life works.

Other guys' PTSD problems are not your fault. 

Be grateful as hell that you aren't suffering like they are. 

You having been there with them would most likely just mean that you would be a casualty of war too. That would have gained you and them nothing. Absolutely Nothing.

Being healthy mentally means that you can help them. You wouldn't be able to do that if you were haunted too.





Below are two websites and excerpts from them that I think will help you. In your situation, substitute the word mentally healthy for the word survive or survived, and substitute mentally injured for death or died:



http://www.realwarriors.net/active/treatment/survivorguilt.php

SURVIVOR'S GUILT

Following the death or severe injury of a fellow service member, friend or loved one, you can sometimes feel shock, responsibility for the event or remorse for surviving. This is a common emotional reaction often called “survivor guilt.”1

Individuals may experience survivor guilt following casualties during which fellow service members are severely wounded or killed, or when they are at home while their unit is deployed. Individuals coping with survivor guilt may find themselves wondering questions such as:

• “Why didn’t I get hurt?”
• “Why did I live when other people died?”
• “What could I have done differently to prevent it?”

These expressions and feelings are common; they are part of how we as humans grieve.

http://www.giftfromwithin.org/html/Guilt-Following-Traumatic-Events.html

· Thank goodness, you survived!
    - more people than you know are happy that you survived
    - we are saddened by so many deaths
    - even if the rest of your life seems insignificant to you, we are relieved that you are alive
· Know that there is no offense in surviving
    - it is good to survive
    - it is okay to delight in being alive
· Feel free to reassess your life
    - reassess what is valuable to you
    - make the best of your life
        . making the best of your life can be a tribute to your survival and to those who died
        . take the opportunity to reevaluate the meaning of your life
        . is your life all it can be?
        . what is or can be your purpose? your talent? your benefit to life?
    - bloom where you're planted
        . process the traumatic experience and its associated symptoms with appropriate assistance
        . put guilt to good use
· If it is in your nature to do so, cherish life
    - treasure being alive
       . whether you survived due to fate, a purpose, luck, chance, or "just did," long life
          and kindness are not guaranteed to any of us
        . each day and each act of kindness can be treasured as gifts
    - treasure the best of each day
    - be aware of your physical mortality in good and positive ways
    - allow that cherishing life may be easier after recovery from trauma
· Recognize the reawakening of old issues
    - survival may have triggered old feelings of worthlessness or unworthiness
    - surviving may have amplified old messages that you received about not being worthy,
       about being a nuisance, about not measuring up, and/or about not counting
· If guilt persists or disrupts life, seek appropriate therapeutic assistance

ffp20

For me, dealing with dead and badly injured/sick kids is the worst. Only recently has the mental health profession got a better grasp on ptsd.  I remember being ordered to attend stress debriefings....totally awkward for a bunch of super alpha guys sitting in a circle talking and being moderated by someone with no clue of what we do.

Crashaxe

ffp20 said:

For me, dealing with dead and badly injured/sick kids is the worst. Only recently has the mental health profession got a better grasp on ptsd.  I remember being ordered to attend stress debriefings....totally awkward for a bunch of super alpha guys sitting in a circle talking and being moderated by someone with no clue of what we do.

+1 to both thoughts.

Crashaxe

Sadly, for the most part, the Meat Eaters of the world, aka the Super Alpha types, have damn near superhuman resistance to seeking help for their mental injuries than the other members of the human race. It just largely goes against their nature and personality type.

@leoslayer bringing up any issue related to feelings is showing a lot of courage. 

Admitting that you are having problems is often thought to be admitting that you are weak. Most would rather get caught dressed in drag in a red light district than admit that they aren't 10 feet tall, affected by nothing, and bulletproof. A lot of guys still seem to think that asking for mental health help is the same as saying that you can't hack it.

Sadly, there are still a good number of well-respected people out there that openly say that they do not believe that PTSD is even a real thing, and think that it is just people who are mentally weak or looking for an easy path to disability ratings. And nobody seems to openly challenge them. Mental Health issues are quite often still far too much of a, "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" kind of thing.  

Also,  the leadership pays lip service to No Warrior Stands Alone and the rest of tenets of the concept of seeking help and suicide prevention, but the leadership and the individuals in the communities who haven't been in that position of needing help yet still often seem to hold seeking psychological/psychiatric help against the person who seeks out that help. Once a person is known to have sought help, they  far-too-often lose some to most of their trustworthy status. It is like others are afraid that what the guy who sought help had is contagious.

Guys contemplating getting help for the first time remember what they thought of others that sought help before they did, and worry about losing their reputation and status.

I don't know that there will ever be a sea change in this problem. It is somewhat akin to trying to cajole a Lion into becoming a vegetarian. You are dealing with a group that has always been Hyper Masculine.  Guys who think women give big Fitness tests to them as boyfriends have seen nothing compared to what peers do to each other on an ongoing basis in combat-oriented fields to ensure that the recipient is worthy of the Fitness tester's trust. Fail once, and all eyes are suddenly on you. Selection is a never-ending process, and is quite Darwinian.

One offshoot of what I am talking about is that in police work, a rookie cop is never really trusted until he/she has proven him/herself by handling him/herself well in his/her first on-the-job fight. Until he/she has done that, the rookie is considered to be just so much excess baggage in the passenger seat. After that first fight, it is usually the job of the training officer to tell everyone far and wide how well or not the rookie acquitted him/herself. Only after passing that test is a rookie police officer really given any trust by his/her coworkers. Similar things happen in the .mil.

The fact that so many of the Critical Incident Stress facilitators/moderators have been touchy-feely types that Meat Eaters can't relate to in any fashion for so long and that the rule of, "What is said in the group stays in the group" and "No judgements" has never generally been enforced in any way leaves the guys who want to maintain their reputation completely unwilling to open up in a group.

Those who know they need help fear having it held against them, so they won't talk in groups and will sneak off to individual therapy. Therefore trying to change the culture of the community to one that believes that getting help shows great strength has seen very poor improvement. 

leoslayer

You know I understand that I sometimes push the purpose of the forum beyond what it's supposed to be.

But honestly this is the only place I really get things off my chest. 

I do appreciate everybody lending me a ear.

Angeline

Cdr. Awesome asked if you wear anything to indicate your service -cap, tags, shirts. When he is not working, 99.99% of the time he has on a veteran cap, and it almost always sparks conversation with another vet. The overwhelming majority of these impromptu meetings are positive for him, he said, and it gives people a reason to start the conversation.