My triage and more

Superblue

Hi all, here I'll give an overview of my situation followed by answers to the triage questions. We had a good start. She wanted me to be the leader when we started our relationship. I was quite blue pill and didn't know any better. I tried to be nice and always make sure to consider her opinions instead of making firm decisions. She graciously tolerated that.

 A quick background on how we grew up:

 Me: My father has always been extremely passive. The original nice guy. Always helping everyone by running errands and driving people around whenever necessary. He never taught me anything and has always had a huge inferiority complex since his school days. He's always been laid back and let my mom take care of everything from planning holidays to paying bills or deciding to buy a house. He's worked at a job he hates for decades without even trying to do something else. My mom was the opposite. Always trying to be in charge, always knowing all the answers and quite elitist. She's always felt inferior because she didn't get a college degree although her grades were good enough to go to college. She overcompensates by displaying how much she knows about whatever it is you're talking about. You can never impress her with your knowledge. As a kid I was bullied in school. I was timid, but smart so people made fun of me for being smart. I lost my drive to learn and got by ok. I didn't see any purpose in studying. I had no guidance from my parents apart from my mom's expectations for me to do well, which in the end I did despite me slacking off a lot. It's been like this since then. I get by OK, never reaching my full potential because of a lack of motivation and guidance. I'm slowly starting to reverse that. Overall my parents were warm towards me. My mom for the sake of her own feelings, my dad because he genuinely loved me.

 My wife : Her parents were cold and ambitious. From the time she was 6 she had to spend extra time doing more study next to her homework. She never got hugged, often criticized for not reaching her parents' expectations - academically and physically. She was also bullied in school but handled it worse than me because of her complete lack of any kind of support at home. She ended up taking a break from school. She never had much time for her own interests and was forced by her parents to take subjects she wasn't interested in. Her mom was a complete narcissist. Her dad was an enabler and always took her mom's side, even when it was unjust. He usually laughed her mom's rage off, never doing anything about it. Before meeting me, my wife idolized her parents. She's realized how messed up it all was, especially now that we've got children. She's a very loving and caring mother. She's got major abandonment and insecurity issues. She's often very fearful that things will get bad and when they do, she feels relieved because she doesn't have to expect it anymore. That's kind of a self fulfilling prophecy. This leads to her often suspecting malice on my side when there's none. If the house isn't in perfect order she gets anxious that people might come unexpectedly and see it. If I don't take that seriously because I'm more laid back, knowing that it's not that bad (trust me, it isn't) and also normal with children, she thinks I don't care about her.

Superblue

She's a stay at home mom and we both want that. The problem is that she's constantly stressed and on the edge. I understand that she's got lots of things to do, but I also know that it's nothing extraordinary. If she doesn't get enough sleep she goes crazy. She blames and criticizes me wherever she can over the smallest things like a small spot I overlooked when washing up a cup or letting the kid fuss a bit because I can't immediately tend to his need for attention when I'm focusing on preparing food. No matter how I react, she then asks me if I'm mad or annoyed at her. If I say yes, she blows up. If I say no she says she doesn't believe me. If I stay calm and spend some time vehemently reassuring her and telling her that I'm sorry, she usually calms down. This is extremely draining for me. If there's a hint of irritation in my voice or face she'll pick up on it. I don't want to always have to do that. She usually apologizes later and promises to become better.

Usually this is the kind of stuff I have outbursts of anger over. When a whole day passes and I have to apologize and reassure her all the time, being humble in the face of accusations and insults there comes a point when I can't stand it anymore.

I get especially irritated when she starts cussing. I don't want to tolerate that in my house, but she doesn't have any firm principles. I noticed that many times when I'm home over holidays and weekends, she stops working. She spends most of her time in front of the computer asking me to do this and that and constantly wanting to talk to me.

She has a list of things she wants to talk to me about and it is long. Many points on the list she doesn't even remember anymore. She tells me how she's got this need to spend more time with me and talk with me. I'm willing to indulge that to some extent because I know that women are just wired to communicate like that. But for me it's just too much. She never shuts up and needs to tell me about the most mundane things and stuff I couldn't care less about, like celebrity gossip.

 Yesterday it came all together. All day she spent sitting. I went out to buy breakfast, then to get her an energy drink, then to get lunch. I changed diapers, played with the kids and listened to her talking. We also watched some TV, because she loves watching TV with me. I like it, but again it's too much for me. I want to have alone time.

 During the day she'd complain about this and that and I stayed calm and reassured her. I could feel the anger rising in me , though. At the end of the day she checked her emails and saw that her lawyer sent her some questions on an issue (nothing major, just some tax stuff). She got super stressed and started looking for some of the information needed. She thinks it's not necessary, whereas I think it's important. Then she tells me how I cause her to be stressed and she won't be able to sleep and starts cussing. I told her she doesn't need to do that right now (10pm). She wanted to go to bed at 9:30 because she really needed to. Instead she tells me that she can't sleep anymore and I'm causing her all this stress and continues cussing. When trying to talk to her she orders me to step away so that I won't look at the computer screen any more and continues swearing and blaming me.

I was running out of patience, put on my shoes and left the house while throwing an insult at her. I started walking as I've done so many times before. My body was full of rage and I was fed up with leaving my home. I ran back and started shouting and throwing stuff telling her to leave the house herself for once. I started shoving her, she shoved back, more insults, etc. In the end I slept in a separate room.

 I've never been like this. It's only since I've been with her that I would lose my temper like that. What she hates most is when I raise my voice because she thinks people might hear and call the police. She's got this deep anxiety about that kind of stuff. I only lose my temper after aggression on her side, not little things. I've read to never attack the person, but the problem. In my case I don't see the difference anymore.

 Yesterday was especially bad. I ended up crying on the ground, then telling her that I wanted a divorce. It was deplorable. When I got up in the morning I felt horrible and shocked that I acted like this. I don't know what to do anymore. She manages to induce feelings of deep humiliation, disrespect and injustice in me that then result in hard to control anger. I feel like I've been extremely patient with her all day while she wouldn't lift a finger to do anything because she's "stressed". It's been months since I've acted out like this, but it's been longer since it's been this bad. I just don't know how to handle this anymore.

When we're sane she acknowledges her faults and tells me that it's important for me not to take things personally and to stay patient and kind. She knows that she's always the one instigating the fights, blames her abandonment issues and promises to get better. I've been pretty good at this for a while until now. She's understandably deeply hurt over what I said and anxious because of my yelling.

 I don't know how to cope with her disrespect and loss of emotional control. The verbal abuse and steady stream of criticism keeps getting to me. I just want to have a peaceful marriage. After my last outburst I don't know how I can ever address my hurt without coming across as a hypocrite. I want this marriage to work. I'm committed to her. I just don't know what to do anymore. At the same time I just want to be alone, not see her or talk to her because I'm fed up with all the unnecessary drama.

Superblue

Here are the triage questions:

 Question One – Basic Questions How old are you and your spouse? I'm 32, she's 25 When did you get married? 5 years ago How long have you been together? 7 years Do you have children, if so, how old? 3 and 1 Realistically, how hot are each of you? We're both quite high on the scale. I look younger than I am and quite fit. I started lifting to gain some more mass. She's hot, but could use a bit of exercise for more definition. Perfect weight. How tall? How much do you guys weigh? 5ft 9 160lbs 5ft 3 116 lbs

 Question Two – Rule Out Medical There aren't any medical issues. I'm mostly satisfied with sex.

 Question Three – Rule Out Structural Attraction Issues We're healthy and in good financial position. I could lose my job now and we'd have enough savings to figure things out without worries.

 Question Four – Rule Out Critical Moments and Neglect We've been in a cycle of fight and reconciliation for a long time. During those fights I've acted really badly. I used to never make the first step to reconcile because I felt it was her responsibility. She was quite hurt by that. To be fair though, by "initiating reconciliation" I don't mean apologizing. She would never apologize first. She says she just can't because it's too hurtful. What "initializing reconciliation" means here is to get a conversation going after we're giving each other the silent treatment for a while.

 Question Five – Rule Out Outside Sexual Sources Can't imagine this to be a problem. Can't see any opportunity for it either.

 Question Six – When Did the Sex Go Bad? She's got issues. She's into stuff that I will never get into. She knows this and acknowledges that it stems from childhood issues she needs to overcome. She's working on it. The real issue with sex is that sometimes I'm not into her because of all the drama and annoyance. It's a big turn off.

 Question Seven – What Was the Sex Like at the Start of the Relationship? Frequent, fun, engaging.

 Question Eight – What’s the Elephant in the Room? I used to be a porn addict. I left that behind, but found myself to infrequently go back, usually after a big fight. She knows about the past, but not the recent stuff. It's not very often, I want it to stop completely though. I also occasionally buy junk food for myself, even though we decided to stop. I was actually doing pretty well for months while she would give in every other day or so. After months of stress and seeing her eating it, I started to occasionally and secretly go back to it myself. When we have big fights I end up actually resenting and hating her. Those feelings subside after reconciliation, although I think I'm sometimes just bottling up the resentment.

 Question Nine – Who is the Leader in your Marriage? I've been in charge of the general direction in life. From day to day it feels as if she's in charge, though. Especially when she's asking me to do this and that for her when she's perfectly capable to do that for herself. Also, when I make a decision that turns out to be bad, she'll make her disappointment and anger known even when it really wasn't my fault, which hurts my ego quite a bit and fosters my resentment. I'm generally nervous about decisions because I know that she will not handle bad results well.

 Question Ten – Tell Us About the Good Times In the beginning things were great. It was because of her infatuation and the newness of being independent of her parents. In between fights we're nice to each other, have sex and strive to get through life the best way we can. It never gets really good though because of her continuing issues that drain my energy.

Superblue

Sorry about the formatting. I just pasted the text not realizing that all the line breaks were lost. Is there a way for me to edit it?

forestleaf

Welcome to the forum, @Superblue.  You can edit a post within an hour of writing it by clicking on the little button that looks like a wheel on the right side of the screen across from your name on each post.  It goes away after an hour, but if you need something important edited out such as identifying information, you can page a moderator such as Jen_Kay or Scarlet or Angeline by placing an @ sign in front of their name, and state your request (like I did with your name above).

I hope you find the help you need here.

fredless

Have you read MMSL and watched Athol's video series?  That is where you need to start.

Superblue

Thanks. Yes I have. I'm just going through the series a second time.

SignorePillolaRossa

so, having read the primer, can you do the 'cold harsh light of morning' self-assessment of your first two posts and indicate each and every time you were less than your optimal self and what you should've done instead?

or would you benefit from us providing that?

first and foremost you need to get yourself together, man ... get your frame sorted and cut out excuses, whining, neediness, etc ... pick up an athletic pursuit that you can channel energy into - martial art or lifting heavy things or something ...

ultimately, you need to learn to shut down her ravings - be an immovable mountain gorilla against a gnat - utterly unmoved when she either says something unreasonable  (irrespective of her demeanor) or when she says something reasonable but with an unacceptable demeanor ... train her to be in control of herself if she wants to interact with you ... sounds like she needs IC and probably so do you ... sounds like she needs an adult  outlet/pursuit ... if she cant handle the 'stress' of being a SAHM, then she should get a frikkin job in the real world - she does not deserve to be coddled 

get control of yourself and use that controlled strength to get her to develop self control under your leadership/example

you can do it - it wont be easy - but it will be worth it

good luck

SamIam2

I second that you and her could both benefit from some Individual Counseling.   The good news is that you probably don't need to "improve" your attractiveness that much (unlike most of us here on the Forum).  That said, your relationship is toxic.  If you didn't have any kids, it would be easier to walk, but I think you have to try your hardest to improve things.  

Obviously, you understand that the current state is unsustainable... mostly because you are beginning to break.  But don't underestimate Her stress also, especially with 2 kids ages 3 and 1.  She clearly wants you near her as much as possible, but you need to "do other things"... take the kids to a park, to the grandparents house (if suitable)...  this will give her a break but also give you some separation... I would try to do that every weekend. 

I'm not sure if you live in a house or apartment, but with a house there is always "stuff" that needs to be done/improved... but you need to find a way to "remove" yourself in a nice/respectful way (especially when you notice that things/arguments are spiraling down).

In the end, you can only control yourself, and that is what you need to exercise.  You need to practice not "doing things" for her... especially when she asks and she is not occupied..  this will aid in improving respect...  but you have to shut them down in a respectful fashion, such as I'm busy right now... practice deflecting...  

Relationship dynamics are tough to fix when its really about being taken advantage of, which leads to arguing (about something unrelated) and then fighting... it's not impossible to fix, but it will take a lot of work and an impeccable Frame... again, I stress, it's all about your Frame.  

frillyfun

If she's having episodes of explosive temper, and so stressed she can only sit on the couch all day then she needs to go to a medical professional for assessment, and treatment.  

That's the line that you draw.  The expectation is that adults be functional, and behave themselves.  If you have a one-year-old she may still be having some post-partum issues.  I had post-partum anxiety, and it was a nightmare. 

Katt

Superblue said:

 

 Question Six – When Did the Sex Go Bad? She's got issues. She's into stuff that I will never get into. She knows this and acknowledges that it stems from childhood issues she needs to overcome. She's working on it. 
 
  This is really vague.   Could you provide a bit more detail on what about her sexual interests inducates that she "has issues".  Sometimes, people are into different things and it isn't necessarily a defect of some sort for either that you have different preferences re:sex.    I guess what I'm trying to get at is that if you're shaming her or making her feel "broken" because of what she likes in the sack, you could be unknowingly creating some serious barriers.  

HildaCorners

Welcome.

As others have said, your first job is to work on yourself. Grow a backbone, learn how to stand up against your wife's ranting and raving. Learn how to lead your family.

Two tools for this: Athol's MAP book and No More Mr Nice Guy. The second book has exercises in it ... do them.

IANAP* but it sounds like your wife is a strong woman who needs a stronger man, and is resenting the fact that you aren't (currently) strong enough. She needs a dominant man ... not in a BDSM sense (though there may be some of that too), but in the sense of having a strong husband who can make the family decisions and be the calm boulder when she's a crashing wave.

You can learn this kind of strength and dominance, if you work at it. Lots of men on the forum have done so. We can help. Come up with a MAP, pick 3 areas to work on each week, and bring your questions here.


*I am not a psychologist ... or coach, or any relationship expert.

Mongrel

You need to read "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Glover.

You have no control of your frame. Your wife constantly sucks you into her vortex of insane hamster. In other words, you let her get under your skin.

You need to stop this immediately. View her as a spoiled child having a tantrum. Look at her with amusement instead of anger. Stop and really think about how ridiculous she is behaving.

Most important, stop being afraid of making her mad. She's going to get mad anyway. More amused mastery. Keep telling yourself she is a bratty child. Agree and amplify. If she harasses you for not putting the dishes away the right way tell her yes, you must be the dumbest man on the earth...so you won't put them away anymore. And then drop it. Not another word. Leave the room. 

You have to take away her juvenile power over you. Once she learns she can't push your buttons you will regain her respect.

Husband3point0

Just an observation -- you use a lot of judgemental language when describing your wife. I'm not sure if that reflects your true feelings and/or if that comes across to her when you interact with her. But, it's certainly something to think about...

AdamBecker

@Superblue : it's been two weeks or more. Have you started your  MAP? has anything happened?

Superblue

Thanks for all the replies. I've been quite busy. We've gotten somewhat reconciled again, but the hurt is still there on both sides. Basically, she's lost a lot of motivation and hope due to my misbehaviour over a large chunk of time.

The key for me is to be this immovable oak. The reason it's hard for me is because I have a strong desire to be respected or at least treated politely. Today something annoying happened again. She went to take care of something and asked me to prepare her a kind of dessert. When I tasted it I decided I wanted my own portion as well and started preparing that. When she entered the room from the other side she heard me prepare my portion, but assumed I had only just begun working on hers and got annoyed. I went along pretending to apologize and then gave her the finished portion. Then she said it hurt her feelings that I made her look like a jerk and that she thought i didn't care about her. I told her it was just a joke and I meant no harm and tried to reassure her. To no avail. She was gonna be mad at me and keep blaming me for her immaturity. I'm sick of being told that I don't care when all I do at home is helping her with all kinds of stuff. I didn't have to make that dessert and whip the cream with a fork. When it's not according to her standards because I don't have experience with those things she gets mad. A while ago we were with a group of friends and the woman asked the man to tie their daughter's hair. The guy looked confused, tried his best and butchered it. She gets annoyed and he asks why she's not doing it herself. Later my wife and I talked about it and she took the woman's side while I took the guy's side. Of course he didn't grow up tying his hair so why is he supposed to know how to do it? And why wouldn't she do it herself anyways? And what kind of shitty behavior is it to put someone down for not doing a good job through no fault of their own? But this is how my wife treats me as well. She's got this list of things she's annoyed about, but it's tasks that most of the week she's in charge of because I'm out. When I'm home she delegates it to me and of course I don't do as good a job. When I get upset and don't want to take her abuse she cries, throws a pity party and talks about how I don't love her and she's good no hope. I don't know how to deal with it. Every time I try to stay calm I can just feel anger and bitterness building up inside until I can't take it anymore. How do I avoid that? That's where the judgemental language comes from. But it only comes through in my behavior when I'm finally fed up. Until that point I'm very calm and humble. I understand I need to do this amused mastery thing, but I'm not sure it would work on her. She's got chronically low self esteem. She would get more aggravated and leaving the room wouldn't do a thing.

HildaCorners

Two tactics to try.

1. If she's going to get mad and annoyed no matter what you do, stop trying to placate her. It won't help, she'll just get mad over something else. [You used the fork upside down when you whipped the cream, you terrible, terrible person!] Instead, hold your ground, tell her when she's unreasonable, and be a strong caring leader. Sure she'll get mad ... but since she would get mad anyway, why not try?

2. If she has low self esteem, she probably beats herself up too. When she does, use your "Strong Caring Leader" (TM) voice and say:

Nobody is allowed to say things like that about *my* wife.

Chances are good she'll come to a complete halt, think for a second, then smile at you or even laugh a bit. And you've made progress.

Remember, she's looking for a solid rock to stand up to her. Be that rock.

Superblue

She's still mad at me, spent quite some time crying and won't talk to me beyond necessities. She says she can't move on unless I give her a real apology. I can't get myself to do it. I feel like I'd be giving into some power play. I think she's delusional and I feel sorry for her, but I don't see how I was wrong. If anything I deserve an apology, but I'm not even that petty and would have no problem just moving along. But she's in this doom and gloom mood now and says over traumatized her for leaving her alone when crying several times. Basically her position now is that she'll be miserable, unmotivated and sad unless I initiate some reconciliation,which means i confess how horrible I was to get and promise to not do it again. I don't know how to snap her out of it without losing even more self respect.

DaddyOh

You're wife, "Wa wa wa"
You, go be awesome. 

Its not your job to make her happy. But man, your wife is immature. 

Tennee

"When it's not according to her standards because I don't have experience with those things she gets mad"

She's crying and mad about a whipped topping desert gone awry?   Really???

Ignore foolishness.  Firmly put a stop to it if it continues:  "I am not about to put up with silliness about your perceived desert insult.  Stop it"  /exeunt.

Do not be Jeeves.  Do your share, do your responsibilities.  Take care of stuff when stuff needs doing.  Do not, however, be Jeeves.  

Tennee

DaddyOh said:

You're wife, "Wa wa wa"
You, go be awesome. 

Its not your job to make her happy. But man, your wife is immature. 

It sounds like a recurring series of shit tests to me.  And he needs to put a stop to it, because he's failing them.