* (Opposite sex friendships)

MissD

I still struggle with this.

I was adored by my grandfather and having nothing but fond memories of my uncles. I also had older brothers and their friends always hanging around and being made to play nice with the little sis.

Pre/first years of school, there were no girls within blocks around but so I hung out with boys. And Mom & dad didn't care if I was a tomboy. (In hindsight, I think they actively encouraged it.)

In my pre/teens/university years I gravitated to the boys b/c I hated wasting time trying to fit into a clique.

So, one of my best friends to this day is male. 

We've pretty much grown up together b/c we started working at the same place in our early 20s. We've been through the dating scene, marriages, raising kids, divorces, custody battles, and many $$$ talks - not least b/c we're working in a dying industry.

I love his new wife (and his ex is one of the few people in this life I just can't stand - I find her pretentious, fake and shallow.

Red pill says its wrong, so I struggle with our connection. We really do view ourselves as siblings. 

SaigoTakamori

There is an exception to every rule.
However the rules are to "keep people safe"
You can break the rules and still be safe.
Just less likely.
Ya Know...

Crashaxe

SaigoTakamori said:

There is an exception to every rule.
However the rules are to "keep people safe"
You can break the rules and still be safe.
Just less likely.
Ya Know...

That is exactly what I was thinking.

telyni

Siblings are one of the exceptions, I think, and historically there are all sorts of ways people might find themselves in sibling-like relationships without being related by blood. (Adoption, "blood brothers," sharing a wet nurse, etc.) Doesn't mean there's never any attraction, and of course there are plenty of stories of incest too, but since incest is such a taboo in most cultures today, it's a lot easier to think and act appropriately if the relationship is sibling-like.

nubby

@MissD Myself, I think opposite sex friends are fine if both partners in the marriage are ok with it and trust each other to adhere to boundaries. My wife and I both have osf's (all of whom are married) and we each meet up with them without our s o. 

My wife and I now (finally figured how) share a calendar and we can see when each other are planning on meeting those friends. Myself, I meet up with my friend almost monthly whereas my wife meets up with her friends once, maybe twice a year. 

I'm not sure what my wife and her friends talk about when they are together and don't really care. One of her friends (mentioned in my triage, college friend, rich, high profile business man and pilot) asked her out repeatedly, a real "ladies man" but she was never interested. Her other friend is a good guy, down to earth, married family man (my brother dated his twin sister years ago so we have met) and as far as I know, he nor my wife ever had any romantic feelings toward one another. What I do know is that when they do meet up, they are always in a group and never one on one. 

My situation with my friend is completely different. I worked daily with my friend for 16+ years. Yes, we have shared very personal and intimate details of our relationships but no more than we would with same sex friends. We both know that if we had met while single, we most likely would have gotten together. We are both attracted to each other not just physically. We both share interests and some hobbies but mostly we share our commitment to our marriages. 

If either of us are having marital issues we have each other to bounce things off of to get a male/female perspective although since being on this forum those discussions are very rare now. Our conversations now are mostly about family and what mutual friends we have met up with. 

I can honestly say I have never flirted with my friend and at one low point in her marriage she did and although flattered, instead of encouraging it, I talked with her and helped her through the issue. I also worked with her husband off and on and he and I are friends and I plan on keeping all my friendships just the way they are. 

If my wife were to ask what we talk about I'm sure I wouldn't have any problem telling her. If I felt I couldn't disclose our discussions, it would be time to rethink my friendship with this woman. 

Tennee

nubby said:

...opposite sex friends are fine if both partners in the marriage are ok with it and trust each other to adhere to boundaries.

We both know that if we had met while single, we most likely would have gotten together. We are both attracted to each other not just physically.

And herein lies the danger.  You can't turn off attraction.  You can't, period.   The Lizard Brain is always at work, both male and female.  I have female friends, W and I are bestest buds with one couple.  But I never - ever isolate with them.  Work acquaintances, sure - had lunch with one last week.  But there's no attraction there.  Group settings?  Sure.  Double-date?  Sure.  Isolation?  Nope.

From this guy's perspective, let me 'splain something:  there's a voice (its probably my inner Godzilla BTW, he's a helluva lizard brain) who, with frequency, says "Hey, I wanna hit that".   I tell him to shut up, we're married, that's wrong, be quiet.  He really doesn't care about my social conventions or moral/ethical/religious compass - he's taking orders from the deep down Unconscious.   

So, whereas there may be trust and there may be boundaries, those can be directly at conflict with the existing attraction between two parties, as the Nubster illustrates above.  

Which will win?  Obviously, it depends on circumstances.  Like Saigo said, there's exceptions, but the laws of attractions are real.   I view it as a dice roll - how many rolls until you turn up snake-eyes? 

MissD

Tennee said:

nubby said:

...opposite sex friends are fine if both partners in the marriage are ok with it and trust each other to adhere to boundaries.

We both know that if we had met while single, we most likely would have gotten together. We are both attracted to each other not just physically.

And herein lies the danger.  You can't turn off attraction.  You can't, period.   The Lizard Brain is always at work, both male and female.  I have female friends, W and I are bestest buds with one couple.  But I never - ever isolate with them.  Work acquaintances, sure - had lunch with one last week.  But there's no attraction there.  Group settings?  Sure.  Double-date?  Sure.  Isolation?  Nope.

From this guy's perspective, let me 'splain something:  there's a voice (its probably my inner Godzilla BTW, he's a helluva lizard brain) who, with frequency, says "Hey, I wanna hit that".   I tell him to shut up, we're married, that's wrong, be quiet.  He really doesn't care about my social conventions or moral/ethical/religious compass - he's taking orders from the deep down Unconscious.   

So, whereas there may be trust and there may be boundaries, those can be directly at conflict with the existing attraction between two parties, as the Nubster illustrates above.  

Which will win?  Obviously, it depends on circumstances.  Like Saigo said, there's exceptions, but the laws of attractions are real.   I view it as a dice roll - how many rolls until you turn up snake-eyes? 

This really depresses me. 

Not just for me, b/c I truly believe bf and I are all past that whether we're left alone or not.  But b/c we both have smoking hot DDs.

Maybe I'm wrong, but your arguments seem to suggest there's never a 'safe' person they can bounce ideas off of.

HildaCorners

I don't disagree with Tennee ... how could I, I'm not male.

But I think many men can master their lizard brains.

Sure, they'll always be a part that says "I could hit that." But that part is covered in layers of "hitting that could get me in trouble; hitting that could cause disaster to her and my lives; hitting that would be stupid on so many levels ..." Given all these messages that an honorable man listens to, it would take a truly monumental act to overcome the "don't do that" messages. [Such as isolation in a hotel room in a foreign city with her wandering around nude and provocative.]

I will not live my life as if all men are working actively to get into my pants, and that I have to avoid men unless I want sex with them. I can control myself, I expect men to as well. I don't let myself get into awkward situations with married male friends, they don't get into such situations with me.

MrGrimm

Just personal opinion, but I think it's different when it's someone you have been good friends with for a very long period of time.  You have had plenty of opportunity to "get together" before marriage and it didn't happen.  To me the concern comes when you are already married and just start "hanging out" with some guy from work, or maybe it's a guy you knew from high school that you reconnect with and start spending a lot of time with.  I'm sure most people can control themselves in these situations, but that's where the concern would come from me as the spouse.

Tennee

MissD said:

Maybe I'm wrong, but your arguments seem to suggest there's never a 'safe' person they can bounce ideas off of.

 @MissD What I'm saying is, there is no 'Off' button to attraction.  There isn't.  It doesn't mean there is automatic sex between two people who find each other attractive.  It does mean that, at least IMO, you may be playing with matches - which can often be a very bad idea.  Cause that can lead to a fire.

@fredless has mentioned on several occasions he vigilantly mate-guards himself by ensuring he does not isolate with other women.  He doesn't play with matches - very much on purpose. 

BTW - this is not a 'guy' thing by any means - I have been outright hit on by women in my life; I imagine that is/was a pretty common occurrence for most of us on this forum to have the opposite sex say 'Its play time'.  I have been hit on in a bar - while wearing my wedding ring - and it was very, very DTF territory.  Think about that scenario for a second - like Hilda mentions above - there's isolation (hotel, conference center), dopamine (exciting place, away from home), inhibitions knocked down by alcohol (more dopamine).  Now throw in the match - 'Attraction'.    This isn't a Male/Female thing - its an Attraction thing. 

In the fire service, you learn about the fire tetrahedron - Heat, fuel, an oxidizing agent (read Air/Oxygen) and a uninhibited chemical reaction.  That makes fire.  Remove an element and you put out or prevent the fire. 

Same thing here - add the right ingredients and you're gonna have a fire.  Remove an element and there's no fire.  No attraction?  No fire.  Proper self mate-guarding?  No fire.  I don't think 'length of time' or 'we're past that' amounts to squat:  combine the right ingredients and you're gonna have a fire.  Interrupt the 'chemical reaction' [and it very much is a chemical reaction, we all know that] and you won't.  Its that simple. 

We're all familiar with the concept of 'Friends With Benefits' right?  What's the order of operation there?  Which occurred first?  Hell, this was my entire 'dating' philosophy on and off for years - I very much preferred STR/FwB scenarios. 

There's nothing to be sad or depressed about MissD, its the way it works.  I have a DD too, and she's gonna look a lot like her mommy.  Which means she's gonna be an absolute knock-out.  Why would this make me sad or concerned? 

Reborn

Tennee said:

nubby said:

...opposite sex friends are fine if both partners in the marriage are ok with it and trust each other to adhere to boundaries.

We both know that if we had met while single, we most likely would have gotten together. We are both attracted to each other not just physically.

...  there's a voice (its probably my inner Godzilla BTW, he's a helluva lizard brain) who, with frequency, says "Hey, I wanna hit that".   I tell him to shut up, we're married, that's wrong, be quiet.  He really doesn't care about my social conventions or moral/ethical/religious compass - he's taking orders from the deep down Unconscious.   
 

And in my opinion the people at most risk are those who say nooo, nooo, it isn't like that, I don't have any lizard brain, I never feel that, we're just friends...

The people who are most at risk are those who see no need to take any precautions or have any rules because hey, they know they don't intend anything to happen. And then afterwards they say "I didnt mean that to happen". Men and women equally. 

If @Tennee is familiar with that voice, and acknowledges it, then he's able to protect himself from it. 

fredless

And in my opinion the people at most risk are those who say nooo, nooo, it isn't like that, I don't have any lizard brain, I never feel that, we're just friends...

The people who are most at risk are those who see no need to take any precautions or have any rules because hey, they know they don't intend anything to happen. And then afterwards they say "I didnt mean that to happen". Men and women equally.

Exactly.  I have a very high opinion of my integrity, character and loyalty.  I have never cheated on anyone, ever, in my life.  For a long time, I believed there was no way I could ever do so.  Now I know different.  I believe that anyone, in the right situation, could potentially stray.  Therefore, I never put myself in that situation. 

For me, I feel like the potential in me is stronger now.  Given my experiences, I don't know if my bond/attachment to my wife is lessened or if it is simply different, but I am really careful nowadays.

Angeline

I'm going to repeat this post from 2012:

Angeline said:

I'm with @ichabod B to the S, but hey it works for Mandy so you can't knock it.

So far. In her circle, everyone is being "nice" and pretending the undercurrents aren't there.

Her guy friends either find her fuckable, and don't do so because they don't have the nerve, they haven't had an opportunity, or they're afraid of her husband's reaction; or they don't find her fuckable.

She chooses to pretend this element isn't there, and that they all just appreciate each other's wonderful personalities or senses of humor.

If anything destabilizes the current dynamic - her husband loses his job, one of the guys goes on an MMSL self-improvement project, one of them finally gets nervy enough to verbalize his desire, everything goes ass over teakettle.

A destabilzing item already on the table is her husband's extensive time out of town. One of these guys might decide to make a move on that basis. It's a bagful of dynamite.

That's not to say you can't have casual friendships with people of the opposite sexual orientation, and enjoy that sexual tension and energy, just always be mindful of the underlying reason it's enjoyable - the *sexual* tension.

Never be alone with said friends, never talk your spouse down to them, keep it to very limited doses *with* your spouse present.

 And the issue of whether you can be friends with your spouse is completely unrelated to this. Of course you can have a deep emotional and invigorating friendship with your spouse. Because the sexual stuff is clearly on the table as a given of the relationship.

http://marriedmansexlife.vanillacommunities.com/discussion/comment/13548/#Comment_13548

Tennee

fredless said:

For a long time, I believed there was no way I could ever do so.  Now I know different.  I believe that anyone, in the right situation, could potentially stray.  Therefore, I never put myself in that situation. 

Truer words were never spoken:  all of us are fallible, because we're all human.   Put the right ingredients together with a chemical reaction, and you're gonna have a fire. 

HildaCorners

Again, I won't disagree with you, Tennee.

I just think most people, most of the time, don't allow "the magic four" to happen.
Isolation
Dopamine
Inhibitions knocked down
Attraction

I've known few people in my life who knock down their inhibitions and go looking for dopamine thrills. [I just don't travel in those circles.] One or two of the above might happen, but not all four at once.

And getting back to mixed sex friendships, as long as one/both people understand the magic four, there will be no "it happened by accident."

Years ago, during one of my marriages, I found myself very attracted to a married man, and him to me. We were good friends, and friends as couples. We engaged in the same sport, and often drove together to practices. We had three of the four: isolation (alone in the car), dopamine (revved up after a good workout), and attraction. But ... we were careful to never be in a situation where we lost our inhibitions ... and nothing ever happened. We even went so far as to deliberately avoid social hugs. [But if I were to ever find out he was single again ... watch out!]

Tennee

"I've known few people in my life who knock down their inhibitions and go looking for dopamine thrills. "

That's not how it happens; its a confluence.  @HildaCorners So y'all avoided a match to set it off - you purposely and consciously took steps to avoid it.  I think there's loads and loads of tetrahedrons out there, some kick off, some don't.  And I think @reborn nailed it perfectly above.    

Like_Water

It's also not usually a single event that causes the issue--it's a gradual slide toward a level of comfort with the OSF that undermines the marriage.  That's why you have to be vigilant about every interaction with the opposite sex.  People get lulled into a false sense of security precisely because they have no intention of acting inappropriately.  Then months or years later they are saying, "I never intended to..."

fredless

Like_Water said:

It's also not usually a single event that causes the issue--it's a gradual slide toward a level of comfort with the OSF that undermines the marriage.  That's why you have to be vigilant about every interaction with the opposite sex.  People get lulled into a false sense of security precisely because they have no intention of acting inappropriately.  Then months or years later they are saying, "I never intended to..."

exactly.

Angeline

Like_Water said:

It's also not usually a single event that causes the issue--it's a gradual slide toward a level of comfort with the OSF that undermines the marriage.  That's why you have to be vigilant about every interaction with the opposite sex.  People get lulled into a false sense of security precisely because they have no intention of acting inappropriately.  Then months or years later they are saying, "I never intended to..."

I think the intellectual dishonesty of it is what bugs me the most. Insisting that the friendship is somehow too deep, too big, too important to control for shutting it down, but perfectly in control to not go too far. lols. 

Also, in my experience, the folks who cling most fiercely to opposite sex friendships insisting that it's platonic are also the ones who sniff at same-sex friendships as being boring, or drama-filled, claiming that they alone amongst their gender are drama-free or have the same interests. Face it, the draw is the fact that it's the opposite sex (if you're hetero). 

And if you're in a romantic relationship with someone other than your friend, you are cheating your romantic partner of the yin-yang, sexual tension and passion/ play that you're expending on your "friend". Sometimes it's because we know subconciously the romantic relationship wouldn't survive that level of intimacy, but in cases where the friendship predates the romance, it never has the chance to find out.

Indulging in this kind of friendship when you are ostensibly in a romantic relationship robs it of the depth and passion it could have. 

HildaCorners

Angeline, I'm going to miss your insights.

Reborn

I want to know how the telepathy works.

A couple of weeks ago I started dating a woman.

Today I got an email from another woman I haven't heard from for a year, who I met on OKC. We went on a few dates, I liked her, but she said Lets Just Be Friends at the time.
Now she emails me a year later, saying how about meeting up again. 

There is no possible connection between them. 

So how did OKC woman know that I had got into a relationship? It has to be telepathy.
(I know, I know, it's because it's Christmas, that time of year.)

I know there are plate spinning aficionadoes here, but my plan is to say "no" to OKC woman. Or at least "sorry but no".  (Because, I declined her offer to "be friends" a year ago. So if I were to agree to start meeting up with her again, it would HAVE to be on the basis of the relationship now being sexual. And it's contrary to my personal beliefs to be having sex with two different women concurrently).