Verbal Abuse management

BrianC

I might also recommend my recent articles on apologies and forgiveness as tools for helping to undo some of the damage:

Wild Man Project | The Art of Forgiveness (pt. 1)
Wild Man Project | The Art of Forgiveness (pt. 2)

Wild Man Project | The Art of the Apology

Captaindude

@BrianC  As a "nice guy," I fear most of our problems have continued and escalated over the past 15 years because I fully believed the "art of forgiveness" and "art of apology" stuff.  Okay articles for after the abuse has stopped and doesn't continue.  

But, I think I need to be more clear about what is not acceptable.  She's welcome to choose what she wants, but I will no longer accept being married to a woman who yells and screams regularly.  

I'm recommitted to getting some anger-management focused therapist recommendations from our local bishop, who knows both of us well.  

Joskin_Nodd

@Captaindude: "is letting her hair grow out at my insistence, even though she keeps saying she hates it long.  "

I feel ya. I've got my wife doing that, too, and I get the sense that one day she's just going to come home with it cut. Not sure, but I suspect. She's got a hair appointment this Saturday, so we shall see. I've told her I want to blonder, too, but not a whole lot of movement on that front. A little. 

"But she also throws a fit when she doesn't get her way, hates scriptures that suggest wives submit, and interrupts me and takes over when she feels I'm not handling the kids right, and gives me lots of nagging directions when I'm driving."

Tough to assert certain things in front of the kids, because the Hamster™ always has the option of turning it into a big blow up to traumatize the kids, which you want to avoid, so you end up capitulating to avoid the blow up. But if you don't like it enough, it's a risk you have to take.

Driving: stop the car. Tell her the car is done moving until she can fulfill her role as passenger. If she can agree, you'll get moving again. If not, you're going to take a nap, and she can wake you up when she's ready to be a passenger instead of acting like she's driving when she's not. 

...cont...

Joskin_Nodd

@Captaindude: 

"She has a huge temper.  It explodes usually a few times a month, up to once a week or even more.  She yells and screams, physically gets aggressive--sometimes tries to hit or push, calls me names like "jerk" "idiot" "stupid," says "I hate you" and has at times called the kids names, including "stupid," "jerk" and told them, "I hate you," and a couple of days ago told the 10-year-old our fight was his fault for crying when he wanted something."

Come up with a strategy as to what you are going to do when she does these things. Go into another room, refuse to engage or talk with her, check out and go to a motel with the kids, whatever. Let her know that that's what's going to happen if she can't control her temper and starts doing that sort of thing, because you are tired of it, and the consequence will end when she can apologize for her behavior and commit to trying to control her temper. You understand getting angry, it happens to everybody, but just because you get angry doesn't excuse any and behavior. You can talk about things like adults, or she can be alone until she gets her temper under control.

"But usually she keeps yelling at kids and I feel I need to defend them, so I don't want to leave them as victims."

I'm taking the kids to a hotel. 

"Sometimes I have responded with yelling, but I never call her names, have never hit her--but have sometimes pushed back when she shoves me or gets physically forceful.  I'll often stand in the way of her and the kid she's yelling at, and she sometimes physically pushes me out of the way--while I'll respond by standing my ground and pushing back."

Yeah, don't. Leave. With the kids. 

"She was really surprised I would end it over a little bit of name-calling, but I made it clear it was not acceptable, kills my attraction to her.  Although I want to have a good, loving relationship with her, that can only happen if I'm treated with basic, normal adult respect.  "

Awesome. 

"She said she feels I don't love her, don't treat her with respect, but couldn't name any specific incidents.  That honestly baffles me."

If there is something I'm doing, let me know. Because I can't think of an example that justifies that feeling. If there is something I honestly need to do, I will do it. But this isn't a tit-for-tat. Your behavior isn't acceptable to me in these instances, and I'm not going to tolerate it. And you shouldn't tolerate it for yourself." 

Joskin_Nodd

@446: "My wife yelled because I let her and she hated me for it."

Yup. isten to this man. Don't let her do it. The best consequence is usually to leave. You've got cash, go check into a motel with the kids. If the kids want to know what's going on, tell them: you're trying to help their mother find better ways to respond to difficult situations that are better for everybody. Yelling and pushing is not the answer to life's problems."

NeoTheLeo

What if EVERY disagreement the wife just goes nuts yelling and screaming if you disagree with her? How can you resolve anything ever?   

Joskin_Nodd

@NeoTheLeo: "What if EVERY disagreement the wife just goes nuts yelling and screaming if you disagree with her? How can you resolve anything ever?"

That means BSC. Which leads naturally to divorce, and keeping contact as limited as possible, and perhaps only in the presence of a neutral 3rd party, or communication conducted through 3rd parties.

You can't MAP teh crazzy. 

NeoTheLeo

Joskin_Nodd said:

You can't MAP teh crazzy. 

Guess that's where I am at...   She just came to my work to pick up child support and did nothing but raise hell bitching about anything and everything....   Shit from 3+ yrs ago that had no bearing on anything...  It's like dayum....  

Notelrac

What if EVERY disagreement the wife just goes nuts yelling and screaming if you disagree with her? How can you resolve anything ever? 
You don't "resolve anything" with a five year old throwing a temper tantrum.

Captaindude

@Notelrac nailed it:  "You don't "resolve anything" with a five year old throwing a temper tantrum."

I have to keep telling myself this when my wife acts like a four-year-old.

She found the box to the recorder I bought--I was keeping it because I want to return it if it doesn't work the way I expected.  We had a very short, but clear conversation about why I have it--so I can record her episodes--or the kids--and show her how bad it really is.   I didn't need to say the other ways those recordings could be used since I'm saving them.  She reacted calmly and kind of smiled, we kissed and didn't say any more, and I was glad we had that conversation.

We had an episode Saturday when the 15-year-old yelled at me and called me names.  My wife wasn't there, but I told her about it and explained how it was just like what she did a couple of weeks ago.  Said I'm concerned for their future spouses and children and draw the connection to her behavior.   She reacted with, "What about when you do such and such," and "there are other ways to show disrespect."  I could tell she was getting worked up, so I just said, "Yes, there are, but right now, we're talking about this one, and when we have that resolved, we'll move on to other things.  You're just bouncing your bad behavior back at me instead of acknowledging the harm  you're doing."  Then, I walked away because I could tell she was getting agitated.  

I will no longer have a conversation of any kind with her when she's angry.

I've also found myself refusing to engage the kids when they yell.  Just calmly say that's unacceptable, take away a privilege or add a job, and walk away.  

She's been calling and asking me for opinions, I've given them, and we've had some really good sex the past several days.  Yesterday, I think we turned a positive corner with our intimacy.

For now, you guys are my support group, and I'm our therapist.  So, I still haven't contacted our bishop.  But she's definitely on notice that I'm recording and saving copies of the recordings.  

Involving the bishop and therapist is still an option, but it's also a bit unpredictable.  I think I'll try it if we stop making progress.

Captaindude

@neotheleo   If EVERY disagreement goes crazy, I don't know what to say.  That's crazy.  My wife throws some nasty fits, but when we're calm, we can discuss differences of opinion.  She's not at all very good at it--wants her way or no way--but we can actually have a calm conversation.  And she's learning that I'm an adult who makes my own choices, including with how I'll handle my own children.

NeoTheLeo

Captaindude

I wish that was the case for me. Seems like you have much better grip on handling it. 

My stbx just perceives ANYONE (not just me) disagreeing with her, like its a threat to her world and they are instantly the enemy.

And when she feels someone is the enemy or perceives them to be against her, she goes for the overkill big time. 

Disagree with something she has done and she gets livid and will go all out to make you submit to her will.

I am talking ALL OUT too. Lying to police to have you arrested, etc. Things I would never do to anyone, much less a spouse. 

Captaindude

Wow.  Sounds BSC.   Don't know what to say.    

Notelrac

It's possible to train someone with a personality disorder.  You do it the same way you do a cat.  Not a dog.  You spend a few weeks training a dog and it remembers the rest of their life.  With cats, they forget their training after a few weeks, and you have to go through the whole process all over again.

Captaindude

Update:  This week has been pretty good.  Some good, regular sex and skin-to-skin snuggling each night.

Yesterday sexting went well. 

Me: what color is your bra

Her: pink 

M:  prove it

H: very funny

M:  don't you have a camera on your phone?

H:  picture message attached.  

M:  Dang. on my new phone the image is blank.

H:  Use your imagination.

M:  It's working.  Gotta adjust my pants.  

When I got home, just before bed, I asked her where her phone was, went and checked her sent messages and found a photo of a nice cleavage shot.  I was totally impressed.

That's a huge first for her--she's very conservative and shy--the first time she's ever sent a risque photo.  I honestly expected some glimpse of shoulder or arm and strap. 

Unfortunately, last night I called to let her at 6 to let her know I would be working a bit later.  She called at 7:30, was very short, said "I hope you like your job,  in a pretty frustrated way, then hung up on me.  I was basically done, left right away, home by 7:55.   It's rare I have to work that late.

I just let it go because that's an understandably tough time of the day for her with kids.

But, later that night in bed, we snuggled, fondled a lot, and she apologized for being so short with me on the phone.  She was very nice about it and we had a fun time joking about trying to guess how often some of our friends have sex.  In general, we feel like we're toward the good end of the bell curve. 

I actually feel like this whole incident and several lead-ups to it, has helped us turn a corner in our relationship.  Maybe it was because I was very clear that I would be willing to leave, and have it backed up by actions like buying an audio recorder helped make it clear I've fully, really, reached that point in my heart and mind. 

She's lately more inclined to follow my lead and has been willingly responsive in bed.   I'm still diligently watching and practicing my reactions, helping her manage the temper, but I'm optimistic we can get through this.

Captaindude

Oh--and on therapy.  This week, the bishop's wife, who is one of the nicest, sweetest person I know (teaches the 1-2 year-old class that no one else wants), taught a class for the ladies in church on humor, and admitted she has a swearing problem.  

My wife said--so, you might not get too much sympathy from the bishop about me.  I said, "She's pretty different, and I doubt she's screaming and abusive with her kids."

At any rate--if things keep progressing, I'm content with this forum as my support network and myself as our therapist.  She seems willing to share and our communication lines seem pretty open.

Bolt

Hey,

I am new here and have followed this thread very closely.  My wife is also very verbally abusive with a short fuse.  I feel your pain.

Keep strong.

- FB

Captaindude

Update:  A relatively minor temper episode happened on Saturday in which she was yelling at the kids to stop fighting with each other, and she refused to take a break.  Only lasted a few minutes.  No name-calling, not turning harshly against me, but still a clear lack of awareness of how badly her words hurt people.

I kept my cool, but firmly asked her to take a break, she refused.  I also clearly told her how it was ridiculously hypocritical of her to yell at kids to stop yelling.   I think she sort of recognized that, and calmed down a bit, but it was still a huge turn-off and wear on me.

With family visiting, out-of-house meetings, and other kid stuff, we have had no time to actually have a serious conversation about what happened, but I'm aiming to tonight.

Also--my voice recorder keeps shutting off automatically--don't know how long it actually stays on.  So, I still have some technical glitches to figure out.

@fuzzybunny  Would love to know what you've done that works.  I'm still learning. 

446

My wife and I had a code phrase "I have reached the end of my parenting skills." This meant that the other parent was taking over NOW. Stove turned off. Whatever dropped. Kids taken over.

I turned this around on her. "You have reached the end of your parenting skills." I repeated myself ONCE. She left the house. She got really angry when I didn't follow her or follow up. "I could have been dead."

You're a big girl you abandoned us after you verbally abused your kids. That's on you.

Bolt

@446 - That, sir, is fantastic.

I have tried numerous things.  Obviously yelling back, which did not work.  I did the voice activated recorder, but she found them and destroyed them.

I have stopped covering for her, this has brought some of it under control.  I have even nudged this a bit further.  I have started opening exterior doors and windows so the neighbors can hear / see (we live in an apartment complex).  Now when she sees me going for a window or door, she quiets down rather quickly.  Also, I have taken to directly pulling my cell phone out and start recording her on video.  She drew her own conclusion on what I would / could do from there (Facebook....?  Twitter....?).  It took her several times for her to catch on to what I was doing.  I actually made a DVD of two of her rants and when she started up over a kid not clearing their plate off of the table, I put it on.  When she came into where it was playing I paused it on her face and how contorted it was.  She was livid and left for three days.

When she came back, she did not even apologize for leaving and not contacting us.  Since then, it has been under control.  I do remind her by saying "are you really getting this worked up over [minor thing]?", pull my cell out and watch her reaction.  Mostly she calms down rather quickly, but on occasion she reaches for me.  I simply say "this is a phone.  911?"  This halts it.  She used to push it by calling me a puss for not dealing with it "like a man".  One day I laid it out to her.  An arrest record will show on a background check (she works for the state).  She will loose her job and it will show up for any other job she applies for.

Obviously I am not around every single time, but the two kids (both teens) simple say there was an episode when they see me.  I have tried talking to her about these episodes, she simply says what set her off.  I just say "was all of this worth yelling and breaking stuff over not putting socks away?"

She has agreed to anger management classes, but has not gone.  This has only gone on for a few weeks, so I am willing to give it a few more before I draw a line.  There have been improvements on her part, but they are slow in coming.  I feel this is because she is blowing off the anger management classes.

- FB