Anyone feel like talking theology?

morticiamorticia Member Posts: 104
edited August 2012 in Faith and Spirituality
I've been all over the internet lately reading Christian men and women rail against 50 Shades of Grey.  The men often lament it is porn and porn is bad. The women often lament that women even like a book where a woman is treated in such an undignified manner.  I read one supposedly conservative Christian lament the power imbalance the book portrays.  Apparently a woman should only enjoy sex when there is no power imbalance. 

Now..for the sake of clarity I want to say that I am not much into BDSM.  A little aggression in the bedroom is fine but you can skip the whips and chains, thankyouverymuch.  I also have more than my share of ego and find words such as "slut" and "little bitch" and other such terms of endearment, not very endearing at all.  

That said, I know that power is attractive.  Whether it is athleticism, intellectualism, or just masculine charisma... I like feeling like someone with options has "chosen" me.  According to Evo-psyche this "hypergamy" is how I qualify worthy sperm.  

So what does that have to do with religion?  

I am interested in how all this evo-psyche symbolizes ontological truths about "masculine" and "feminine" energies.  How creation relates to God and visa-versa. 

Now an atheist would say "Oh, you mean the myths humans use to explain natural realities." and for the purpose of this discussion it probably doesn't matter if you think nature is the reality and religion is the symbolism or you think the religion is reality and nature is the symbolism..so long as you actually see the symbolism.  Atheists who see all religion as just a bunch of silly non-sense that stupid people believe won't have much to offer.  

When you think about man and woman as symbols..Man symbolizes God and Woman symbolizes creation..then the roles of man as Giver and woman as Receiver is imbued with more meaning.  

In human kinds relationship with God we have a few responsibilities 1. ask for what we need 2. be receptive to Grace 3. be aware of our weaknesses 4. give due reverence.  In turn God provides for our needs and protects us from evil (to the extent that is compatible with His Will).  

There are so many erotic illusions in the Bible and in contemporary Christian music.  You Consume Me by DC Talk is the most obvious example.  The song is asking God to possess..take hold of... dominate.  It isn't so different from the sexual cravings of a heterosexual woman. (And yes, that song does kinda turn me on..lol)

With that preface..the real thing I want to discuss is how to differentiate between "lust" and legitimate "desire".  Also..how to dispel the myth that dominate behavior is sinful.  I've seen this attitude too many times to count..that the only holy sex is the kind where the man is supplicating and gentle.  

God is sometimes gentle and sometimes not.  I think it depends on what He senses we can handle.  And a man is usually going to go gentle on virgin and probably a little less gentle on his wife of 20 years.  God was not gentle when he made Paul fall off his horse.  He wasn't gentle when He had a whale swallow Jonah.  He displayed serious dominance towards Moses, while simultaneously affirming him of his purpose.  

But how do you differentiate between lust and desire?  I think it is in the intent.  Do you want to get yours with little regard for the other person?  Or are you mindful of the others persons emotional and psychological needs?  

I think what we often see in society is relating power and dominance to rape and because rape is bad power and dominance must be also.  But what makes rape wrong isn't the dominance, its the taking what doesn't belong to you.  Many (not all) women have rape fantasies and I think this points to the fact that they crave power and dominance.  If we lived in a more patriarchal society perhaps women wouldn't go to such extremes in their fantasy lives. 

To me..the biggest difference between love and lust is that love takes responsibility while lust just takes.  
Mona
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Comments

  • morticiamorticia Member Posts: 104
    LOL..that was longer than I expected it to be. 
  • LinanatiLinanati Member Posts: 1,553

    morticia

    I'd heard that sort of thing when I was still a Christian.  It kinda sounds like a blend of Christianity and Wicca.  Wiccans are seriously into the sexual diety(ies) stuff.  We need to get Ian Ironwood in here commenting.  I think he's into some kind of modern paganism, at least it sounded like it on his blog.

    Honestly, I think a lot of contemporary Christian music is popular culture repackaged in Christian terms.  That's why it often comes off sounding so sexual.  "Kiss Me" by Sixpence None the Richer is a good example of that.  I love that song!  It's not really that Christian when you listen to what it's actually saying though.

  • morticiamorticia Member Posts: 104
    Can you explain further.  What sounds Wiccan about it?

    Full disclosure- I am RCC and basing some of this on the teachings of JPII. 
  • morticiamorticia Member Posts: 104
    Speaking of Christian songs that seem to be about human romance: 


    One of my personal favorites but it makes me think of my husband more than God. 
  • LinanatiLinanati Member Posts: 1,553

    Seeing human sexual relationships as a metaphor for the divine is a very Wiccan idea, from what I've read about the religion.  Hence the sky-clad (nude!) practitioners.  Not all of them celebrate their liturgy in the nude, but some still do.  I haven't studied the Wiccan religion extensively though so I can't point to any particular theology book or liturgical manual.  I'm basing it on what I've read from Wiccans online, plus what a (sort of) Wiccan friend of mine has told me.

    Seeing human sexual relationships as a metaphor for the divine also would have been verboten in many Christian churches only a few decades ago.  I think popular culture is driving the change .  Part of that is probably the fact that some Wiccan ideas are going mainstream, without being labeled Wiccan or pagan.  One way that's happening is through some paranormal romance novels.  The magic often has a Wiccan flavor. 

    The biggest driving force behind the change is probably just that our culture is so extremely sexual.  Everything is about sex, including religion.  Of course, Christianity always has been about sex to some extent, but it used to be in a more negative way.  I was taught that sexual desire is a sin, oral sex is a sin, anal sex is a sin, sex toys are a sin, and on and on it went.  That was only 15 - 20 years ago, when I was a teenager.  I'm glad Christianity has loosened up about sex a little so people can enjoy themselves without guilt and fear of hell.  It's kinda strange though seeing god and creation and humanity referred to in sexual terms.

  • morticiamorticia Member Posts: 104
    I don't think there is anything all that new about it..particularly in the older Churches (RCC and EO).  The mystics have always alluded to it, especially in medieval times.  And many Saints have been canonized despite having a spirituality that eluded to a romantic devotion.  Flirty Introvert had a very insightful post about this a awhile back:


    I actually think the Wiccans are copying us, but they are eliminating the hierarchy.   Christianity has some references to Old Paganism..but again as a Christian I'd say the old pagans were pre-figuring Christ and not that the Christians stole from the Old Pagans. 



    Angela
  • LinanatiLinanati Member Posts: 1,553

    The ancient mystics did use the language of romantic devotion, but it usually seemed to be more from the emotional aspect, not sexual.  I was Eastern Orthodox for a few years and read quite a bit from the ancient saints.  Now, I didn't read much from the catholic writers after the Great Schism, so possibly Catholicism had more sexual stuff in that vein.  Most orthodox I knew (all very conservative) would have been horrified at the very idea.  Most conservative protestants would have been as well, until the last couple decades.

    If you think Christisanity hasn't borrowed any ideas from Wicca, but Wicca has from Christianity, would you also say that Christianity hasn't been influenced by feminism, but feminism has been influenced by Christianity?  Ideas flow back and forth between groups of people, even people who generally hate each other's guts.  That's just how human societies work.  Christianity isn't an exception to that.

    [Deleted User]
  • morticiamorticia Member Posts: 104
    edited August 2012
    I think that feminism is mostly a result of the enlightenment but that the enlightenment was partly influenced by Christianity, especially the protestant reformation.  

    Christianity is definitely a more "feminist" religion than some others..especially Old Paganism or Islam.  I wouldn't say that is a bad thing..only when it is taken to an extreme where hierarchy is rejected and autonomy is elevated too highly.  

    Yeah, the EO's don't like Teresa of Avila.  Mystical Marriage is particularly medieval and Catholic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystical_marriage

  • LinanatiLinanati Member Posts: 1,553

    I'm more of the opinion that the influence goes both ways, unless you can completely isolate your religious community, which is pretty unlikely.

    You've mentioned in another thread that you are drinking Southern Comfort tonight.  Are you discussing theology while (gasp!) half-lit?  That's in line with Martin Luther, who supposedly did his best theologizing while drinking.  But if you're Catholic, you aren't supposed to be emulating him...  >:)

    I really am laughing out loud right now.  LOL isn't just a figure of speech at this point.  Did you like my devil smiley face?

  • morticiamorticia Member Posts: 104
    Well, I hadn't started drinking yet when I wrote this.  All the comments you can blame on the booze. lol. 

    Catholics are notorious drunkards.  Luther was copying us.  Geesh..we never get credit for anything.  hehe. 
    Linanatigoisles26Hamster_Free[Deleted User]
  • LinanatiLinanati Member Posts: 1,553
    Forgot to say - the more traditional Orthodox don't particularly like any Catholics, not just Teresa of Avila.  One of their most scathing criticisms of a statement or idea is, "That's too western."  By "western", they mean both Catholics and Protestants, but they hate the Catholics worse, I think.  I knew an Orthodox man who named his son after an anti-catholic Orthodox saint, as a subtle dig at his Catholic wife and family.  Fortunately, I don't think they understood the insult.
  • morticiamorticia Member Posts: 104
    They just jellis because we are so much more popular. They see us rollin, they hatin'.  

    (PS:  You can tell I've been drinking when I start quoting hip-hop in a theology discussion)
    LinanatiHamster_Free
  • LinanatiLinanati Member Posts: 1,553
    My husband's mother's priest (RCC) came to minister to them when she was on her deathbed, and ended up telling stories of falling down the steps at seminary while blind drunk.  So I believe you on the notorious drunkards thing!  ;)
    morticia
  • LinanatiLinanati Member Posts: 1,553

    I haven't been drinking anything but vanilla flavored almond milk tonight.  Can't have alcoholic beverages.  I'm allergic. :( 

    Gotta go to bed though because both sick children are sound asleep now.  Yay!

  • morticiamorticia Member Posts: 104
    I never heard of someone being allergic to alcohol.  All types of alcohol?  Wow..thats a bummer.  
  • LinanatiLinanati Member Posts: 1,553
    I'm actually allergic to sulfites, which are used as preservatives in alcohol.  At least my husband knows I can't turn into an alcoholic, right?
  • BoxxerBoxxer Member Posts: 34
    edited August 2012
    the distinction between Lust and desire is an interesting one. 
    Lust suggests some form of covetness. - for something that isn't yours (or offered?)
    Desire seems to be strong attraction - which in a righteous sense means something to be delighted in / enjoyed.

    Re Domination and power v gentle submission (a paraphrase I know, but having read your initial post once and the comments, I don't want to scroll to the top again - reading fatigue today)  I think the following:
    1. Many of the biblical men were alpha types. (sure there were several beta ones too) In that regard, the swash buckling, sweep you off your feet, tell you what to do, protect you from harm, sire great kids in your belly, and generally take care of things dudes are all over the place..  Does that mean that we all should be strong alpha types, no. does it mean we should be strong beta types then, no. Find the fit that works and be that. Your wife needs the right balance of Alpha and Beta.
    2. What people don't often get about headship and submission is that headship is a function, submission is mutual. So if my wife submits to my leading, I also submit to her needs. I lead where she needs/wants to go. My Job is to be at the front, not dither about.  Help her to understand what she wants and set out in that direction.  [a pithy way of looking at it is "togetherness"... TO Get HER [happi] NESS ].  Dominance then isn't so much as saying 'My way or the highway' it's understanding her needs and making them happen, ensuring that she doesn't get so preoccupied in keeping house, raising kids, holding down a job or whatever else she does with her time doesn't neglect herself or your needs/wants because in the end, if her needs aren't met she soon starts feeling unloved and unsettled.
    3. A man who can make decisions after listening and summing up options is powerful. mental power is just as (maybe more) powerful as a muscle pumped jock.  Sure the jock might look better, but other than catch her eye she's looking for other attributes too, ones that show he'll nurture, protect, care and love her..  he does have to be physically appealing to her (the myth is that it's only men that are attracted to what they see... dead wrong) but strength comes as much from within.
    4. keep promises.  If you say you're gonna get the decorating done for a certain date (say), make sure it happens.. - why? because not only does decorating disturb the 'nest', but not keeping the promise of temporary discomfort for nest improvement's sake will cause her to not trust you on other issues.  Powerful men, Dominiant men make things happen and ensure they happen.  They are trustworthy and true. "Honey I tried", is just not going to cut it as a response.  Let your yes be yes, and your no be no and your timescales be accurate.
    There's more I could say about how dominance and Christianity can sit quite happily side by side.. I have more examples, but trying to be brief (I suck at that)... 

    Mona
  • CharlesCharles Richmond, VASilver Member Posts: 38
    I define the sin (or more accurately, vice) of lust as the attachment to pleasure from people. The heart of being chaste rather than lustful, in the broadest sense, is being able to turn away from the prospect of enjoying someone when that enjoyment would be wrong.
  • IanIronwoodIanIronwood Member Posts: 7
    That's actually quite close.  Modern Neopagan theology, particularly the Wiccan traditions (traditions are like denominations, only without all of that pesky organization) often emphasize a dualistic pantheon with a polar God/Goddess, representing the male and female aspects of the universe.  Male/Death, Female/Life, and a lot of other stuff gleaned from our paleopagan past.  The modern theology offers an opportunity to appreciate a divine femininity on par with the masculine divinity usually celebrated in the Monotheistic faiths.  And, of course, sex is a major aspect of it.

    Sex -- "The Great Rite" -- is the vital essence of our species.  It's a human universal.  Everyone's parents had sex at least once, and so on.  Pagans see sex -- not just marriage, but the act of sex itself -- as a sacrament, and see the powerful female sexual energies (very different, but no less powerful, than the male) as something to be celebrated, not condemned.  Despite those who claim I'm misogynistic, I assure you that I am devoted to a very female Goddess, who doesn't hesitate to throw me a cosmic Shit Test from time to time.  

    But for me, part of the Red Pill is intensely spiritual and, yes, religious.  That is true despite the fact that Mrs. Ironwood is, essentially, a secular humanist with a very light Episcopalian coating when her elderly relatives are around.  My relationship with her, my marriage to her, and our sex life are all deeply religious things to me.  She is, as I've said, my personal reflection of the Goddess in my life.  And she doesn't hesitate to throw me the occasional Shit Test, either.
    Anyway, I'm always happy to answer questions about my religion, but I don't want to spook any Good Christians.  Sure, I'm a goddess-worshipping tree-hugger, but I have no desire (nor religious influence) to steer you away from the Bible or your personal relationship with Jesus.  I've just got a slightly different perspective, and one that you might find useful.

    (And yes, many Wiccans do practice skyclad -- nude -- in ritual.  It's not a sexual thing.  The theological point is that we all came into this world naked and unadorned from the womb, and that is how the Gods see us, anyway, so when we worship that is how we display our humility and openness.  It also makes church more interesting.  But its rare that nudity is practiced around children, and my kids have never been to a skyclad ritual.  It does make a lurid picture in some prudish minds, though.) 


    Linanati said:

    Seeing human sexual relationships as a metaphor for the divine is a very Wiccan idea, from what I've read about the religion.  Hence the sky-clad (nude!) practitioners.  Not all of them celebrate their liturgy in the nude, but some still do.  I haven't studied the Wiccan religion extensively though so I can't point to any particular theology book or liturgical manual.  I'm basing it on what I've read from Wiccans online, plus what a (sort of) Wiccan friend of mine has told me.

    Seeing human sexual relationships as a metaphor for the divine also would have been verboten in many Christian churches only a few decades ago.  I think popular culture is driving the change .  Part of that is probably the fact that some Wiccan ideas are going mainstream, without being labeled Wiccan or pagan.  One way that's happening is through some paranormal romance novels.  The magic often has a Wiccan flavor. 

    The biggest driving force behind the change is probably just that our culture is so extremely sexual.  Everything is about sex, including religion.  Of course, Christianity always has been about sex to some extent, but it used to be in a more negative way.  I was taught that sexual desire is a sin, oral sex is a sin, anal sex is a sin, sex toys are a sin, and on and on it went.  That was only 15 - 20 years ago, when I was a teenager.  I'm glad Christianity has loosened up about sex a little so people can enjoy themselves without guilt and fear of hell.  It's kinda strange though seeing god and creation and humanity referred to in sexual terms.


    The Red Pill Room: www.theredpillroom.blogspot.com
    Blogging For An Ascendant Manosphere
    Wendyhopingformore
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