get the papers drawn up, sit her cheating ass down & calmly spell it out to her
I know you have cheated on me and accept no responsibility for your actions, only you can accept these
tell me what's been happening & why ?
Expect a shit fest ,tears and trickle truth here
ignore the tears and analyse her words and her reactions
spell out your action plan and that non compliance = papers
Because she is not attracted to you is NOT Always YOUR fault , sometimes they change Too.
Map like a Mofo, initiate as much as possible if she still rejects you ? Read this again.
If you do throw an ultimatum at her, one thing is absolutely crucial:
There is absolutely no more "going out" at night for your wife. She's proven that she can't be trusted. If she argues with you, stand firm. A grown woman and mother doesn't go to bars to have drinks with and screw around with other men. You should have put your foot down on that from the very beginning.
But IMO, it doesn't sound like she's loyal in the slightest, and never has been. I'm not sure if an ultimatum will accomplish much, other than buying time before she cheats on you again.
This x1000 It is exactly what I was going to say. She needs another hobby that does not involve bars, drinking, or any kind of "hookup" scene. Girls Nite Out needs to turn into Girls Nite In at someone's house with wine, food and movies/games.
I hate to tell you this, but normal "healthy" couples do not constantly go out to bars without one another.
1) Are you sure you even want to stay married to her? Is there any inkling that she could be capable of self-control and could rebuild trust?
2) She needs to start therapy and working on herself, YESTERDAY. Her tragic upbringing has skewed her view of "normal". She is trying to fill some hole in her soul with all this cheating. Time to do better.
If you are going to live in a semi-rural area and be married and hang out in bars, then you've got to have the reputation among other men that messing around with your wife is a one-way ticket to the hospital, or possibly the bottom of a very deep flood control lake. And you've got to mean it. So if you aren't willing to go to jail to put that kind of behavior in its place, then you both have to stay out of the local bars. Case closed.
"My advice to you is get married: if you find a good wife you'll be happy, if not, you'll become a philosopher." -Socrates
I don't know how she'll react to all this. I do think she wants to keep our marriage, she's never flat-out stated that she doesn't like it. But again, action speaks louder than words.
OF COURSE she likes your marriage. She gets all the structural advantages of having someone to share finances with and help her raise the kids, plus she gets to fuck other men whenever she wants and you won't stop her. And she doesn't even have to feel bad for it, because you cheated on her first and because you occasionally use the word "open marriage," which a woman's Hamster will inevitably interpret as permission.
Whether she will like the kind of marriage that you (ostensibly) want, where you act like a married couple and don't go out to bars and fuck other people, who knows.
---
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
She's not loyal. But. The Captain is responsible for creating the environment, no? Well, you haven't exactly created an environment in which loyalty was expected. Your EA, allowing GNOs, offering swinging - you have not sent the message that you truly expect fidelity.
Believe me, I *get* the northern small town thing. There IS other stuff to do, but you have to look for it and sometimes create it. Having friends over for Scrabble night may not sound appealing when you're still in "bar" mindset, but that mindset is actively killing your marriage.
I suspect you can turn this around, but there needs to be 100% clearcut rules.
1) You each have full access to each others' phones and Facebook.
2) You go to a bar once a month at most, and only with each other. No exceptions.
3) No one spends the night anywhere other than home.
You are a married couple, in your 30s, with children. It's time for both of you to start acting like it.
I think the biggest danger I have is that I will shift too much of this onto myself. I know I created the conditions that let this flourish. It's like leaving raw met on your counter for a day. Yeah, you might get lucky and it might be fine, but what are the odds of that? Well, if you're the one who left that meat sit out, do you blame the meat for going rotten?
One of the biggest challenges of the MAP is understanding what your weaknesses are, and then working to fix them. @Scarlet, @Ben, and @Templar, all of you have pointed out a weakness that I hadn't given much thought.
@Athol_Kay, I don't know if the wedding incident had anything to do with any sexual abuse, it seemed more like an unpleasant reminder that her mother couldn't be there. And yes, this relationship started as me cheating on an old gf, and yes, I did commit the first EA. I know this relationship would be vastly different had that EA not happened - that's what sent me into hyper-beta mode.
She's absolutely at fault for her actions; it's just that you're at fault for yours too.
Ultimately the question is, can you go forward from here? Taking ownership of your role allows you to make that decision, because it gives you power in shaping the marriage to come.
You made some big mistakes, but you didn't force her legs apart so some guy could screw her. If you are going to save this - and you need to decide if you want to - you are going to have to become strong NOW. ALL GNO's are done. NO GOING TO BARS. NO SOCIAL LIFE THAT DOES NOT INCLUDE YOU.
Your first and biggest decision is whether you can move past what she has done - and believe me - you likely don't know the half of it yet. She needs to come clean - completely. At that point if you cannot forgive her, you need to get out WITH THE CHILDREN ASAP. You have seen what it does to kids who see mommy screwing any guy with a johnson. Do you want your kids raised like that?
Trust will be amazingly hard to rebuild - if you decide to hang in there.
This is going to sound like odd advice, but given your mention of a few things I think we have similar backgrounds: join the local ELCA church. I'm not particularly religious, but that's the beauty of it. ELCA is pretty low-key on the religion thing; they're more like "be good to one another; coffee and cookies will served in the basement after the service." (You have to say that in a Fargo accent, btw.) Anyway, the point is that it's friendly and non-threatening, but most importantly it will introduce you to more people whose lives don't revolve around bars. Also, the lefse is excellent.
For the record, I didn't mean to imply that your infidelity actually justifies hers, just that that's the logic her Hamster uses it to justify it to herself. Two wrongs and all that.
---
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
Wow. Red flags, red flashing lights - everywhere. Sorry mate. Do you really want to try to salvage a relationship with a woman that has serious marital fidelity issues? At least for me, first strike you're out is the rule, kids or not. I couldn't live with it. I'll be the guy at 78 that discovers his wife's infidelity from 20 years ago and will get divorced, then and there - even if I'm on dialysis and a respirator.
Now. You have also fucked around so that might be a mitigating factor for you, but it would seem - at least from your description - that you are the one that can keep his skivvies on more times than not. Kids notwithstanding.
Don't.Expect.A.Miracle.
That is all.
Never listen to what a women says she prefers in men; instead, watch what she does.
@Linanati: Evangelical Lutheran Church of America. It's one of the more liberal Lutheran denominations in the U.S., and on of many Luteran churches that you'll find in the upper-Midwest (insert Garrison Keillor joke here).
if you're the one who left that meat sit out, do you blame the meat for going rotten?
No. You dispose of it, and resolve to never leave it sitting out again.
I don't know if the wedding incident had anything to do with any sexual
abuse, it seemed more like an unpleasant reminder that her mother
couldn't be there. *sigh*
Let me unpack what @Athol_Kay just did, because he's busy off writing a book. And dealing with private emails.
I think we can all agree that your wife does not have a healthy sex life. You describe her as exhibiting promiscuous behavior. Well, what sorts of things cause a woman to act that way as an adult? Turns out that a major trigger is childhood sexual abuse.
Step #2: Stepfathers are at a statistically higher risk of abusing their stepdaughters.
Step #3: Your description of your wife's behavior during the wedding weekend when this man from her past showed up unexpectedly raised a red flag in Athol's brain. In his considered opinion, the few words you used to explain how your wife reacted on what was supposed to be one of the happiest days of her life, and based on his having read about and worked with thousands of troubled relationships the past decade, is important. So he's giving you an incisive clue as to where to look in order to help your wife (and you) heal.
Ignore him at your peril.
this relationship started as me cheating on an old gf, and yes, I did commit the first EA. When are you going to give yourself permission to forgive yourself?
I think the biggest danger I have is that I will shift too much of this onto myself. I know I created the conditions that let this flourish. It's like leaving raw met on your counter for a day. Yeah, you might get lucky and it might be fine, but what are the odds of that? Well, if you're the one who left that meat sit out, do you blame the meat for going rotten?
Yu did screw up but if you take responsibility for her cheating yuo are sending the message to go ahead. She needs to be held accountable for her actions. You already applogized and groveled for your indicresion and she is using this to justify her cheating. Do not do this anymore.
I am so sorry about your situation, a lot of us know the pain. Stay strong.
"Calm seas never made a good sailor" English Proverb
"We can not fix a problem with the same level of thinking that caused it" A. Einstein
@Linanati: Evangelical Lutheran Church of America. It's one of the more liberal Lutheran denominations in the U.S., and on of many Luteran churches that you'll find in the upper-Midwest (insert Garrison Keillor joke here).
Ah, thanks. I'd thought for sure the 'E' couldn't stand for 'Evangelical' since @Scarlet seemed to be saying that they don't threaten you with hell if you don't think the same way they do.
Maybe my husband and I will wander over with the kids one Sunday and check it out, if there's one around here. We had wanted to try out a Unitarian church but there isn't one close enough for us to go. We just sorta thought it would be nice for the kids to be part of a community where they have certain values, such as how you treat other people, but without the indoctrination, "You MUST believe this!" We'd prefer they make up their own minds when they get older.
people that have been abused that have gone on to screw anyone that gives them attention and strokes have no natural boundries or concepts of normal, acceptable behaviour. the part of them that tells them it isnt ok to screw any drunken Tom, Dick and Harry that gives them a wink has been damaged, they are incapable of setting and following their own boundaries in a healthy fashion. they cannot self-regulate.
of course many can go on to have healthy, faithful relationships but they need their partner to set the bar on what is and what is not acceptable behavior. In other words YOU are going to have to be the one that sets the hard boundaries and strictly monitor and enforce them. You can't leave it up to her to self-regulate her sexuality. Her moral compass and concept of healthy sexuality were severely damaged long ago.
You haven't been doing an adequate job so far (you probably just assumed she would behave like a normal person so I'm not knocking you) what you need to do now is determine if you want to take on the task of being her 24/7 bodyguard or not.
Comments
Did I say don't leave the house?
get the papers drawn up, sit her cheating ass down & calmly spell it out to her
I know you have cheated on me and accept no responsibility for your actions, only you can accept these
tell me what's been happening & why ?
Expect a shit fest ,tears and trickle truth here
ignore the tears and analyse her words and her reactions
spell out your action plan and that non compliance = papers
It is exactly what I was going to say.
She needs another hobby that does not involve bars, drinking, or any kind of "hookup" scene.
Girls Nite Out needs to turn into Girls Nite In at someone's house with wine, food and movies/games.
I hate to tell you this, but normal "healthy" couples do not constantly go out to bars without one another.
1) Are you sure you even want to stay married to her? Is there any inkling that she could be capable of self-control and could rebuild trust?
2) She needs to start therapy and working on herself, YESTERDAY. Her tragic upbringing has skewed her view of "normal". She is trying to fill some hole in her soul with all this cheating. Time to do better.
If you are going to live in a semi-rural area and be married and hang out in bars, then you've got to have the reputation among other men that messing around with your wife is a one-way ticket to the hospital, or possibly the bottom of a very deep flood control lake. And you've got to mean it. So if you aren't willing to go to jail to put that kind of behavior in its place, then you both have to stay out of the local bars. Case closed.
"My advice to you is get married: if you find a good wife you'll be happy, if not, you'll become a philosopher." -Socrates
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
Your first and biggest decision is whether you can move past what she has done - and believe me - you likely don't know the half of it yet. She needs to come clean - completely. At that point if you cannot forgive her, you need to get out WITH THE CHILDREN ASAP. You have seen what it does to kids who see mommy screwing any guy with a johnson. Do you want your kids raised like that?
Trust will be amazingly hard to rebuild - if you decide to hang in there.
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
*sigh*
Let me unpack what @Athol_Kay just did, because he's busy off writing a book. And dealing with private emails.
I think we can all agree that your wife does not have a healthy sex life. You describe her as exhibiting promiscuous behavior. Well, what sorts of things cause a woman to act that way as an adult? Turns out that a major trigger is childhood sexual abuse.
Step #2: Stepfathers are at a statistically higher risk of abusing their stepdaughters.
Step #3: Your description of your wife's behavior during the wedding weekend when this man from her past showed up unexpectedly raised a red flag in Athol's brain. In his considered opinion, the few words you used to explain how your wife reacted on what was supposed to be one of the happiest days of her life, and based on his having read about and worked with thousands of troubled relationships the past decade, is important. So he's giving you an incisive clue as to where to look in order to help your wife (and you) heal.
Ignore him at your peril.
this relationship started as me cheating on an old gf, and yes, I did commit the first EA.
When are you going to give yourself permission to forgive yourself?
OldFamBoy said:
I think the biggest danger I have is that I will shift too much of this onto myself. I know I created the conditions that let this flourish. It's like leaving raw met on your counter for a day. Yeah, you might get lucky and it might be fine, but what are the odds of that? Well, if you're the one who left that meat sit out, do you blame the meat for going rotten?
Yu did screw up but if you take responsibility for her cheating yuo are sending the message to go ahead. She needs to be held accountable for her actions. You already applogized and groveled for your indicresion and she is using this to justify her cheating. Do not do this anymore.
I am so sorry about your situation, a lot of us know the pain. Stay strong.
"Calm seas never made a good sailor" English Proverb
"We can not fix a problem with the same level of thinking that caused it" A. Einstein
Ah, thanks. I'd thought for sure the 'E' couldn't stand for 'Evangelical' since @Scarlet seemed to be saying that they don't threaten you with hell if you don't think the same way they do.
Maybe my husband and I will wander over with the kids one Sunday and check it out, if there's one around here. We had wanted to try out a Unitarian church but there isn't one close enough for us to go. We just sorta thought it would be nice for the kids to be part of a community where they have certain values, such as how you treat other people, but without the indoctrination, "You MUST believe this!" We'd prefer they make up their own minds when they get older.