Too aggressive, or should I keep it up?

gusgus Member Posts: 79
Long story short: after a great birthday party for our eldest son, things were winding down and I threw a snowball at her in the house. She screamed in a laughing way... then I threw another which his her head pretty hard. She was mad, and I agree the second one I threw was mean (though I haven't apologised).

So she throws mega shit tests (after a week of me passing and her attraction shooting up/us having a lot of rough sex). Storms upstairs. I had started walking off with her family who walked away, but turned back (mega fail, ugh). She was on the bed trying to nap and furious at me - I wouldn't apologise and kept grabbing her to lie down and face me while I told her that she is overreacting. She tried to go away but I grab her and pin her back down. Her rage is punctured by smiles, so I know she loves it in a way, but she also keeps saying "I don't want this to be our relationship!" which is another shit test but i can totally see how it's all ammo for if we DO break up (she could say "he suddenly became very aggressive, etc" which is obviously a bad look).

I also tried carrying her out, I can't remember why, but she threatened to scream (with a smile on her face) and she did twice. I should have ignored but hafd to cover her mouth, though it all felt very flirty. She kept it up, locked herself in the bathroom which I smashed through instantly (again, she reacts well but keeps the shit tests coming at full speed).

THen she's in the son's bedroom, and I try "look, I understand that you're upset, but stamping around like a child is unacceptable and you need to apologise." She refuses, and I don't really have any recourse other than repeating myself which is lame. I say if she apologises she'll get lots of nice attention which she earned for working so hard on the party, but if not, I'll open the window (it was cold) and leave her to have a cold nap. She doesn't, and I do exactly that. 

So overall, not a complete fail, but I can see where I should have done better. One question at this point: is holding her and pinning her down too much for general banter? Should I save it for sex? I worry that it's too much for arguments, but then, I see her smiling so something must be sexy about it.

Part 2:

She keeps being sleepy everywhere, and crouches in a little ball on the floor for 5-10 minutes after coming off the phone. I know she's trying to get some kind of attention or sympathy so I ignore, but eventually say "I keep expecting you to grow into a tree" which was an attempt to say something witty but actually felt lame afterwards. She goes upstairs (I later find she was browsing girly tattoos, which she always used to be against, and saw her browsing again this morning... uh oh, trying to look sexy for others!).

As I'm about to get into bed she puts her laptop on my side of the bed to watch something, so I say to move it. Two second of no action and I lift the duvet as if to shake it out, and she says "I was about to do it!". I do the duvet again to show I don't care, but again, it's ammo for her to say I've been mean and gives her a reason to be pissy all night.

In bed I repeat that I'm willing to hear her out but she needs to stop being childish, and she has to do it before we sleep because then she can get positive attention at night. 

This is where I start failing, I think - I kinda bring it up again when I think of something new to say. Some bits sounds good, but in general I'm reacting so it's probably all a fail. Meanwhile, she gets two missed calls from a number which I suspect was the person she was seeing about a month ago... (ugh long story but felt like it was solved up until this point).

I look at this forum for reminders, and realise I was making the right points but not being assertive enough in my language. I say it for a final time: "this behaviour stops. You're overreacting." I should have done this the first time, but it's just another fail because I'm repeating myself.

Later, I wake at 5am, we're both awake, and I tell her to apologise. We talk a little I don't remember, and my light aggression gets smiles from her. Shit tests come think and fast but I deal with them okay, I think. At one point I push her out the bed which I did this week, and throw her back in. She pulls the 'we're not going to last the week [as a couple]'. Risky that she's putting it out there but I just ignored. On one hand that's fine but compared to snappy comebacks for everything else, it's a marked difference and maybe she notices, I can't tell.

She eventually apologises (win!) and to reward her I give her a big tight hug and stay there. In hindsight, this should have been brief because maybe it was too beta after finally winning with some alpha, because she says...

"Why don't you apologise for XXXX" [I forget what - the snowball? The duvet thing? Being aggressive? I don't know what but I ignore.

This morning I go in to talk, thinking I've been too alpha with the aggression, just to let her speak and see me listen. I keep saying 'go on' to get more out of her and she does. Afterwards, I should have said 'okay, I understand' and walked out, but instead I explain that I need to behave the way I do to hammer out her bad behaviour. She says 'That's a problem right there, having to hammer it out'. Another shit test and I just reply with 'Mmmm' to any complaining from there, but she walks out.

Writing all this out, I think the aggressive stuff isn't so bad and I just need to pick when and where - ideally where it can lead to sex. And I need to stop failing these shit tests because I've done so well.

Where should I draw the line with aggression?
What should I apologise for and when? I'm thinking nothing, but it looks like we're going to hit a deadlock today. My plan: ignore her, deal with shit tests, and find the right time to up the aggression and have sex. 

But if we're in a deadlock, i it appropriate to walk in and pin her down with kisses etc?

And I need to be sexually aggressive to beat off competition from this person calling her, right?
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  • Athol_KayAthol_Kay My Underground LairPosts: 8,046

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  • gusgus Member Posts: 79

    "Ummm you threw a snowball at her head, in the house, refused to apologize, and you're calling HER childish?"


    Oof, you're totally right. It seemed fun. The first one was, but the the second one was clearly too much.


    Here's my answers:


    One - Medical

    I have a scalp condition which does not show because I use a shampoo which keeps it under control. Perhaps of relevance: in December a shortage of the shampoo mean it was hard to get hold of and very expensive. I couldn't get some for a couple of weeks. I stupidly told her that there was a shortage and I needed it. I now have a two years supply in my office and scalp is back to normal, and didn't really get too bad while I was out.


    Two - Structural attraction

    I'm a freelance journalist and there's some risk to the income there, which I used to bring up when I found she was spending money on clothes from around November last year. Some side income wound down around then too. It's now fine, we're not rich but perfectly comfortable... as long as we don't splurge, which she does. Particularly when her attraction for me is down. She has a bunch of sexy underwear and new clothes, spent £500 on one over overdraft, and has another secret account. I have no idea where the money for that is coming from.

    Also, I've never worked out until last week. I'm very unfit. I look good otherwise, and the men in my family are generally very well built and attractive.

    I don't have many good clothes and have had the same ones for years. Slowly changing that now - my jans all had holes between the legs, so I just got two great new pairs. I need more t-shirts because they're all rubbish. I need more shirts because I wear the same few. I don't like my frumpy jumpers, which would look fine if I didn't have so few. I will deal with this over the next month.


    Three - Critical moments 

    After confronting her with knowledge that she was seeing someone else (full story to follow) we had a pretty dep chat. The first burst of what seemed like genuine emotion was when she said about how it looked like I was unhappy in all the photos from the day our first son was born, five years ago. She says she threw out all the pictures of me, and worries it's because I resent her for getting pregnant when we were so young. I have alluded to feeling this in the past when mad, normally defending myself for saying I have stuck by her - yeah a fail. (the story is, she was on the pill, she must have missed one or several, got pregnant, and I didn't notice till her belly got big and I confronted her. It was too late to abort. We had aborted another in the past for the same reason. I was in my final year of university. I completed it, she didn't. I'm glad we had the kid because we love him.)


    Four - Outside sexual sources


    Yes, there was (and it will probably take just one big fail for her to sneak back). In early february when i was at a stag do, she met someone and I think they had casually been seeing each other since. I came back from a week-long trip after two nights to be with family (we had fallen out right before leaving and it was clear she was planning to leave me). The house was tidy and she looked amazing. She was with a female friend, whose reapparance in our lives was the catalyst for my girlfriend turning bad - they started going out at weekends till late, and this friend has drug problems so I dread to think what they got up to and with whom.


    I found out about the cheating because I looked at her friends phone while they went outside to smoke. "Don't come round, her boyfriend just got home' etc. There was a couple of months worth of conversations suggesting they'd had late nights together taking drugs.


    Me and GF had a long talk, I was equal parts beta and alpha but probably in the wrong ways, in hindsight. Her story was that I never helped at home, always working etc... true, I was on my computer for up to 17 hours a day. But I was also failing shit tests non-stop, so I understand the lack of attraction.


    I had quit weed right before my trip, and also quit smoking cigarettes. I think my attempts to quit cigarettes were a big part of me being emotionally unstable and very pussified; I was snappy, angry, and often a bitch to try and appease her. I think my quitting at the time we had the big talk was helpful because it was a sign (and a real one) that I'm about to be a better man, and be myself again, rather than some stoned zombie who wasn't there for his family.


    She got home and we had a big talk. I was still very beta, but in the short term it worked and there was mssive positivity. After a couple of days I started researching LTR game and came across this forum, saw all the things I forgot after being into game years ago (and finding her), and started to be alpha again. 90% of it has been working apart from when I've been childish, and also not being sure where to draw the line with aggression - it works, but to do this every day will get tiresome for both of us. Maybe it already has. 

  • gusgus Member Posts: 79


    Five - when did sex go bad


    The sex started to slow after our second son. I can tell you now it's because I kept failing shit tests, and just forgot about all that. I also failed loyalty tests because I used to smoke a lot of weed and was generally unreliable. Between these fails, there were some alpha traits that I didn't know I had, which must have kept her hanging on. I've been suspicious that she's cheated on me several times and only had evidence of one recently).


    Six - Sex at start of relationship


    Amazing, frequent, she was squirting a lot, and very slutty. I was into game and performing well, avoiding shit tests etc. Slowly I gave up on game and forgot things that I should have worked harder to get right. I haven't made her squirt in years... maybe once or twice since our first year.


    Seven - elephant in room


    Early in our relationship, soona fter I started turning beta, I found her in bed with someone and beat him up pretty bad. She had pants on, but topless. I didn't see if he had boxers on, maybe he did. We fought more. I won, but apologised after. Later, she said that he wouldn't press charges if I phone and apologised again. I did.


    Whatever the effect of that day, I've never trusted her and always worried things would eventually go wrong. This is why I haven't married her - I feel it's inevitable that she will do something, and she has done, and maybe many times. Though, maybe zero times until very recently.


    Ultimately I know it's because I displayed beta qualities, and when I'm alpha she's into me. I just need to get it right again. She might not be perfect, but she's the mother of our kids and I think it's best to stick together.


    Eight - Leader


    It was her. Now we're going through a bit of a power struggle as I turn alpha again. She succumbs to me, but if I put a foot wrong she escalates and tries to reign it back.


    Nine - The good times


    On one hand I don't know where to start. On the other, there haven't been enough good times for the past few years. It was best when we were young and starting out - I was very social and had plenty of stories. She liked my sense of humour. We had lots of great nights with shared friends. There was romance. There was a lot of sex. She adored my sense of ambition. 


    It all changed when we had a kid and moved to a rural area (and yes, while I was turning beta before that, these are the external circumstances). Being a rural area, we couldn't go out together much - you have to drive to get to any good towns, and need a babysitter (which is often family) and that's only after the boy is old enough to go without his mother for a few hours because of feeding etc. By the time we started to get back on our feet as the boy grew up, we had a second one... 


    I think that should help. While writing, she just got home so I think I'll say we need to talk tonight. I can totally see I was a dick and shouldn't have been so childish, but need to avoid her angry frame ruling my actions. Let's see how it goes...


    P.S. Yes, looking at that post I've just written, there are plenty of reasons we shouldn't carry on. But we're a family, and she's very receptive to game. Or rather, good game. If I can nail that again, everything else will fall into place... and if she strays one more time, she packs her bags and we just get on with life. That's a horrible thought but I'll fall on my sword to make these boys stronger men than I was, and that means their parents having a stable relationship.

  • PhoenixDownPhoenixDown TejasGold Women Posts: 10,632
    She has a bunch of sexy underwear and new clothes, spent £500 on one over overdraft, and has another secret account. I have no idea where the money for that is coming from.

    Uh, Yeeaaah... Have you never asked her about this? If not, why not? I hate to tell ya, but she's probably still cheating, and likely with a different guy, unless druggy douchebag was also a sugar daddy.

    The clothes and sexy underwear are for someone else if you're not getting the benefit.

    She needs to give you full access to her phone and email accounts, and she needs to come clean about what the secret account is for and where the money is coming from. If she refuses, you have your answer. And she'll probably turn it back on you for being "controlling", but ignore it and drive on. DON'T aplogize when this conversation happens, because it seems like you do that a lot.

    Early in our relationship, soona fter I started turning beta, I found her in bed with someone and beat him up pretty bad. She had pants on, but topless. I didn't see if he had boxers on, maybe he did. We fought more. I won, but apologised after. Later, she said that he wouldn't press charges if I phone and apologised again. I did.

    Wow, so you apologized to the guy your wife was cheating with? Big ouch.

    How many times has she cheated on you? I'm confused on the count.


    [Deleted User]Templar
  • gusgus Member Posts: 79
    Here's what just happened - I'll divide it up so it's clearer what I say:

    She heard me coming down and started heading out the door.:

    Me: Where are you rushing off? (ugh, not very alpha but had to stall her. She says to a friends, whose daughter she always babysits from this time on a Monday afternoon). 

    Me: Come here a second. (She walks over to grab my outstretched hand, I'm stood side-on and pull her in front of me). I was thinking about what we said (she wanted me to apologise for "bullying" her, which I guess was the snowball but she had also cited me being aggressive). I didn't want to apologise before because I thought you were being childish, and you were, but then I thought... throwing a snowball in the house and pulling a duvet off you (both of which I did twice in quick succession) are pretty childish too. And I'm okay with apologising when I make a mistake, so I will. (I don't think I specifically said sorry, but probably said something like 'so I want to apologise for that'). 

    Me: As for being aggressive, well, (grabbing her closer) sometimes I do want to pin you down and have my way with you. And I'm not going to stop doing that, because I like having sex with you (something to this effect, non-needy and suggestive as far as I can tell). So I'll keep doing that. 

    Me: I'm okay with admitting when I've made a mistake (yeah, said this already, but there you go) and my goal now is to not make those mistakes.

    --

    She says 'okay', hugs me, and after a couple of second I break it off, casually push her towards the door, and say 'now go and speak to [her friend] and tell her I'm not so bad after all.' Not very alpha but doesn't seem an inappropriate goodbye.

    She leaves, I go check her laptop and she's been browsing girly tattoos again. The motivation behind this is not lost on me; she clearly wants to make her body attractive somehow, and blatantly not for me. She used to say how unattractive tattoos are, and tried to hide her browser when I walked in on her browsing this morning.

    Looks like the only thing I can do next is be alpha around the house and give her some stellar sex later. Our sex is never bad, but I haven't made her orgasm with my cock since trying to be more alpha this past week... only with my hand. This is a concern for me... she is very receptive to good sex, so I need to be sure I literally nail this and keep nailing it! We've already agreed she will go on the pill so I can come in her (and I did last friday - she got a morning after pill, though I didn't see her buy or take it. Waiting for the receipt. But she was on the last day of her period so probably wouldn't be pregnant if not).

  • gusgus Member Posts: 79
    "She needs to give you full access to her phone and email accounts, and she needs to come clean about what the secret account is for and where the money is coming from. If she refuses, you have your answer. And she'll probably turn it back on you for being "controlling", but ignore it and drive on. DON'T aplogize when this conversation happens, because it seems like you do that a lot."

    I agree. How should I bring this up, and when? It feels like there will never be a good time to do it... when things are good, it fucks up the flow that could lead to a good life again. If when things are bad, she'll just clam up and get the shit test cannon out.

    "How many times has she cheated on you? I'm confused on the count."

    That first time was when we were very young and relatively non-serious. I presume she had sex with this new guy recently, or at least intended to because the bedroom was *incredibly* tidy when I returned for the first time in months. Apart from one other time when I was going away a couple of weeks before, so maybe it happened then too. 

    As for in the interim, she very rarely went out but I wouldn't be surprised to know there had been a couple of one night stands. It all comes back to her old best friend: when they are together, she is a different person and misbehaves. They are both very attractive and garner a lot of alpha attention.
  • Athol_KayAthol_Kay My Underground LairPosts: 8,046
    And stop worrying about the snowball.

     One Hour Call   12-Week Guided MAP

    "The turnaround is tremendous.  And I'm lifting weights, eating better, and tackling projects.  I have all this great energy without a vampire sucking my life force.  :)  He's a lot stronger standing on his own two feet, as well."  - Scarlet

    [Deleted User]UnderhillSerendipity
  • gusgus Member Posts: 79
    Here's the thing: she had something like two or three abortions before even meeting me. 

    Yeah, I know. She's a slut.

    I very much doubt she cheated on me before our abortion.

    Have I apologised for the first abortion? I think during our chat where I first confronted her, we got pretty deep and I think I said sorry for pressing her to get an abortion, because it must have been hard on her and statistically it would have been a girl (we've had two boys) and she knows I've always wanted a daughter. 

    The daughter thing came up again two nights ago... we were talking about how she just took a morning after pill for me, and I said that her new goal to train to be a teacher would be scuppered if she got pregnant again (it's several years training, and she returned after being at her parents to ask for my support while she does it. Uh oh, I'm starting to see what her subconscious plan might be... have the dad of her kids support her, and if it goes well, great. If not, she gets what she wants on the side). 

    So anyway, she was basically mining for information about how I feel having another kid and that it would be something like six years until we can. She seemed to be suggesting she wants to do that, but maybe just trying to get me to say I did as some kind of shit test. I wouldn't answer, and said we would talk about it another time or something. Seemed to big to talk about at a time like this.
  • PhoenixDownPhoenixDown TejasGold Women Posts: 10,632
    You need to start using condoms, and rinse them out when you're done, if she's not already pregnant again.

    Jeez. 

    [Deleted User]
  • gusgus Member Posts: 79
    "Do you think having sex is going to fix the problems you have going on in your relationship?"

    I agree it's not that simple, but this is how I see it: I failed a tonne of shit tests and loyalty tests. For a long time. Quitting weed and stuff is a valid opportunity to change as a man, both symbolically and in reality, and in her mind too. If I can start getting things right from now, I do believe we can pull it back. 

    "Do you have any paternity concerns about your kids? 100% sure they are yours?"

    I have suspicions about the younger kid. We weren't having much sex at the time, but he's a valentines baby so it might add up. I've suddenly become aware that he doesn't necessarily look like me... but he does happen to look a lot like his mum. I am considering a paternity test, but don't see what it will solve at this point because I love him.
  • spankyspanky Flying around Silver Member Posts: 2,267
    Wow, lots there.  You have to get really honest with yourself about what you are dealing with here.

    "You need to start using condoms, and rinse them out when you're done, if she's not already pregnant again."

    A small bottle of Tabasco sauce with a drops into the condom will tell more, if she is suddenly screaming about pain in the va-jay-jay you'll know instantly what is up.

    This all reads as pretty toxic
    [Deleted User]
  • BenBen Silver Member Posts: 3,651
    You... really seem pretty unconcerned about all the times she's cheated on you.  And the fact that she's almost certainly still doing it.

    When marriages recover from infidelity-- hardly a sure thing, but it can happen-- the script is not,

    she cheats -> they have a talk about it and he asks her very nicely not to cheat any more -> she stops cheating.

    The script is,

    she cheats -> he lays down the law, gets all mate-guard-y and demands full transparency so that she can rebuild the trust she's broken -> she gives him all kinds of nonsense about how he needs to trust her and not be controlling -> he is solid as a rock and maintains frame -> she breaks down, tells him the whole story, and tearfully begs for forgiveness -> she stops cheating.

    If she's told you the whole story, given you full transparency, or asked for your forgiveness, you sure haven't said much about it.  Which is what leads me to believe that she's still cheating on you.

    ---

    In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
    PhoenixDownAngeline[Deleted User]HildaCorners
  • gusgus Member Posts: 79
    "Well she is definitely still cheating, that's a given."

    I see there's a risk that she will cheat again, but so far 99% sure she hasn't. She would head out the house looking better if she was going to do that.
  • gusgus Member Posts: 79
    (...but it's only been a week.)
  • williewillie Oklahoma Silver Member Posts: 518
    Have to agree with everyone else.  You can MAP as hard as you want, and it won't fix her low character.  The most you can hope for is that the children she has are yours, and she isn't screwing around for now, while you are being alpha, passing tests, etc.  But when things turn south, she'll wander off quickly.  Is that the life you want?  
    [Deleted User]
  • gusgus Member Posts: 79
    I don't mean to keep defending her, but I see the moment I confronted her as the break point. The shopping, underwear, etc were all before the moment I confronted her.

    The tattoo research? Clearly the seeds of cheating again are in her mind. It's the direct result of me failing a couple of shit tests. Maybe I fucked up again by apologising for being childish with the snow etc.

    To be honest, your replies are waking me up to the wider reality of all this. It's starting to look hopeless, but battling this still seems better than the alternative which is restructuring a whole life while over the next month I have the most critical few weeks of work in my career. If I were to break up with her, I might as well just hold it off so I don't fuck things up personally too. And again, it seems like there is no alternative for the kids - they need their parents (assuming the second one is mine. I might feel different if I check). 
  • gusgus Member Posts: 79
    Is the MAP plan the most appropriate thing to do? To be honest I skimmed through the book for the main points to refresh everything, but the marriage plan didn't seem appropriate because it takes time... which I don't feel I have.
  • spankyspanky Flying around Silver Member Posts: 2,267
    edited March 2013
    gus said:
    "Well she is definitely still cheating, that's a given."

    I see there's a risk that she will cheat again, but so far 99% sure she hasn't. She would head out the house looking better if she was going to do that.

    gus said:
    (...but it's only been a week.)
    No, you're not getting it.  They are telling you she is cheating now.  You don't have any real clue as to if it's 99% or 5% that you are sure of. 

    Skimming the book and applying half measures and only half listening here will result in half results...  Up to you.

    DEER - defend, explain, excuse, rationalize... 
    PhoenixDown[Deleted User]
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