Too aggressive, or should I keep it up?

gus

Okay, the message is clear. Our relationship is clearly as rocky as ever and there's only a slim hope that I could pull it back... and even then, it could take too long to work.

One asset I have is that I know her laptop and iphone password, and have been able to see everything that happens there. She was showing off about 5:30am sex to her friends, and it turns out that one of her friends just cheated on her partner and my girlfriend was begging her not to do it. So there's signs that all is not lost... but the tattoo thing is a big huge red flag, and not just a warning. 

She clearly wants to have a sexy body, either as a backup if I don't live up to her newfound expectations, or because she intends to cheat again when she gets a chance. Maybe both are true.

Okay, now for the next step.

I like the advice from one poster here: 

she cheats -> he lays down the law, gets all mate-guard-y and demands full transparency so that she can rebuild the trust she's broken -> she gives him all kinds of nonsense about how he needs to trust her and not be controlling -> he is solid as a rock and maintains frame -> she breaks down, tells him the whole story, and tearfully begs for forgiveness -> she stops cheating.

I need this to happen. Should I go to a counsellor about this? She already agreed to see one with me before I found this site, after which Is aid we probably don't need it (because I figured that being alpha was the only way forward and talking about feelings somewhere wouldn't fix it). 

Most of you would say to just walk, and logically it makes sense, but it seems easier to try and fix it and walk later if she fails again. This is the only 'you have one more chance' talk we've had, and yes that's a massive DLV but as a family it still seems right to try just once.

If I'm not going to just walk out today, what is the best way forward? 

spanky

Invest 4 hours in yourself and read the primer.  Start there

Athol_Kay

gus said:

Here's the thing: she had something like two or three abortions before even meeting me. 

Yeah, I know. She's a slut.

I very much doubt she cheated on me before our abortion.

Well okay....

In that case, I can't ever see this being fixed.

Athol_Kay

You shouldn't be trying to save things until you get to the bottom of her secret bank account.

spanky

Doesn't seem like he has a real solid handle on exactly what he is "trying to save" yet, part of it is an inability to actually honestly see what he has (chronic and somewhat condoned cheating, abortions, hiding/outside agendas, lack of character, lack of trust) and what he doesn't yet know about (OM, secret bank accounts, etc).  But bank account is as good of a place to start as any

gus

I suspect it's just a place to hide her spending. She has a joint account which I see (and she has spent plenty of that too). 

Then she has a student overdraft account, which was something like £500 overdrawn in Jaunary.

Then the third account. Very unlikely that a man pays into that; more likely somewhere for money from her mother to treat herself with. But yes, although I've alluded to knowing about it, I should confront there. 

I think I need less fear that something I do will make her run out the door. I see now how much she actually wants me, whether for the right reasons or not, which makes it easier to confront. Problem: she's going to ovulate this week and will go out at the weekend. If she has her own metal ammo like 'he tries to control me' then it will justify her cheating again, and then I really will have no choice but to send her out the door. Only if I find out, of course... and I can't go and watch her.

Damn, this is all so sad. 

gus

I forgot that she also earns £200 per month, but it's cash in hand so she'd be kinda stupid to go putting it in a bank.

willie

Listen to yourself: 

"If she has her own metal ammo like 'he tries to control me' then it will justify her cheating again". 

 "Clearly the seeds of cheating again are in her mind. It's the direct result of me failing a couple of shit tests."

Fidelity should not be on such a hair-trigger.  You can't know if this can be saved unless you know the scope of the problem.  This isn't just alpha/beta attraction/comfort issues at work.  

Read the Primer for a start - there is a section on dealing with affairs.  The "controlling" card is played both to justify cheating and make you the bad guy for wanting to know the truth.  

spanky

"she'd be kinda stupid to go putting it in a bank."

Having affairs and being secretive is stupid too, yet here we are...

You don't see the denial you are in??

gus

Have gone through the cheating chapter again. She gets a choice tonight. Time to face the breakup... and if she can't answer questions or tries to wriggle out, I should accept that it's only ever going to get worse.

One big concern: her last line of defence could be to say I've started to be aggressive to her. She wouldn't even have to go into detail for it to sound very very bad (and for the record, I've never hit her. More like pinning her against the wall or carrying her to another room).

gus

So we broke up last night.

I satarted by asking how she thought the last week of trying to work things out was going. She said it was mixed, and liked how we had been working together on our kid's party and being able to finally talk at length and start solving things. She then said she didn't like the changes since Tuesday (when I started reading up on LTR game and being alpha again) because she felt bullied and that I was trying to take control of everything. I didn't apologise, though later after the breakup started to explain why I was stepping up my responsibilities - to take charge and lead them all and to be more attractive. I shouldn't have bothered because there was no need to explain and because part of it probably sounded sexist.

I gave her the choice in the primer book: full transparency or she moves out.

She chose option A, so I grilled her on what I knew. The bank account, it seems was somewhere to put cheques from work, but I assumed she was being paid in cash, so we'll see the result of that when I see her bank statements later. It turns out she doesn't know who was calling her the other night, I assumed it was her ex lover but she showed me a text from the morning after asking who it was. Again, we'll find out for sure later because I want her to try calling it again.

I wanted her to text her ex but apparently he doesn't have the number. She claimed that the reason she fell out with her friend (whose re-entry to our life was the catalyst for my GF starting to go wild) was because her friend actually went and slept with him after I kicked her out of our house on the night I found out about the cheating. If that doesn't make sense, just assume I'm pissed off that I was second best to some dude who would probably still be sleeping with her otherwise, but also glad that he's out the picture. If what she says is true anyway.

Regarding the tattoo, she tried saying it was just something for her but I said it was clearly to decorate her body and comes across as very slutty for someone who is supposed to be trying to win back my trust. After trying the same line for a while, she said it was to defy my recent spurt of control. 

The part she screwed up was when I asked about the clothes she had been buying. She kept saying 'the ones you've seen we wearing'. I was obviously hinting at the underwear hidden in a bag in her wardrobe. I kept pushing and gave her every chance to be honest, so she took me upstairs to say 'look, where, what do you mean?' I pointed behind a long dress where the bag was, and she's like 'oohhh, that stuff. That's all going back'.

I didn't buy it, it sounded like bullshit and I told her to pack her bags and go. There were no tears, and she seemed relatively okay with it, apart from the obvious fear that she might lose her kids, so she kept saying 'I'm not going without the kids.'

We spoke for a while (okay, I spoke for a while) about being disappointed and reiterating that she had really fucked this up. Yeah, I let my game slide, but after reading this thread I had to accept that I was being a chump and kinda accepted that she is bad for me. At the very least, she accepted responsibility for screwing up.

I went to bed and thought I heard her crying, but there was no sign of it when I came down to turn the heating off. I told her to come with me. She shit tested to not come up to bed, and when she was in there she kept trying o walk out but didn't put much of a fight - it was playful and I said something like 'if we're going to break up, we're going to do it the right way and work together.' We talked - there was a bunch of beta behaviour about what could have been,

Then there was about an hour of alpha passionate/rough sex where we both gave head. She said about never coming so hard after I licked her out, and she was undoubtedly very wet and sensitive after but it felt like a bit of a red flag - why say it? Then she went down on me despite me trying to battle her away because I turned very cold ofter going down on her, partly because I wanted to avoid having sex but also because I read that turning attention away after they come makes them want you more. She certainly fought to get back to my body. After some head we had very good sex. Again, I don't think she came but I went to kiss her genitals again and she was too sensitive, not from pain, but part of me wonders whether it was genuine. I'm confident she enjoyed the sex.

This would all be great, except... I read her phone in the morning, and here's what she text a friend (from memory, the sentiment is about right, and I'm only writing my GF's messages):

--

Me and [gus] just broke up

I'm okay, I'll come over to talk in the morning.

I'm so confused, he's asking me to come up to bed. I'm going up to keep the peace.

--

It looks like she went along with everything because it's the safest way forward of not losing the kids. While this is clearly the overarching narrative here, there were sparks of sincerity from her - she turned around and cried a little when the topic of our goal to eventually have a daughter came up. 

All the while I made it clear that we're not in a relationship.

During the night I asked her plan. She was going to leave Thursday after our son finishes school before the easter holiday. 

Here's what WAS going to happen thursday: we go in for a school report meeting with the teacher, then go drop her nana's car back (after borrowing it for a month).

My goal: get past Thursday so she can't disappear with the kids in a car. Then I have more control over what happens next. But there's one more story, which I'll put in the next post:

gus

This morning we woke as normal at around 5am (just a habit after the past stressful week) and talked again. There should have been a little less kissing and cuddles, and I tried getting her to talk freely but she was clearly avoiding saying something that can't be unsaid. At one point she acknowledged my 'good' beta side and said it was always great when we have these talks to remember how good I am at caring and being a dad... which would have sounded great but reminds me that I need to be alpha to keep her attraction up. 

But who cares, because it's over, right?

Except it's not, because we both want the kids. Neither of us really wanted to broach the topic, but I suggested several times that she should go to her parents for a few days. She repeats that she's not going without the kids. I avoided arguing because once we open the 'kid war', then it really could become a war. Ultimately, my heart still wants this to be fixed and we raise the kids like the family we should have been.

I went for the first run I've had in about two years after buying some sports clothes yesterday (and signed up for the gym). For some reason I decided to call her dad, because if she plans to go home she will call them and I wanted them to have more accurate intel before supporting her return to their house. I said we had broken up, and that the reason she went to their house for a few days last week was because I found out she was cheating on me. I said I had to get serious and break up because I couldn't roll over and let her lies dictate the relationship, but confided that my goal is to keep the family together. And that they need to help her make the right choice rather than hide behind her shame and make the family collapse for the wrong reasons.

I called him because he's very family orientated and would relate to all that. And I think he did, but I see there is also a risk that it primes them to prepare to swoop in and take the kids. Still, better that they have some intel that prods their family values rather than have my GF call and only tell her side of the story, where they would DEFINITELY swoop in rather than potentially nudge her in a moral direction.

After this, I got back and gave her this ultimatum:

The kids are staying with me. We are not in a relationship now. She has a choice: she leaves, or she stays and works to fix her issues and give me the full transparency she promised the night before. We go to counselling to deal with the underlying issues (like, abortion and trust) that clearly need dealing with so we have a foundation to build on.

I said she owes it to the kids to do better and that I deserve better than this. That I am confident and proud of the man I'm going to be now I quit weed. That I refuse to lose my family because of her mistakes. 

She says yes, and that she will try. And she will... but I'm not naive enough to think she won't be thinking up a plan B, and that her attraction for me is going to fall through the ground because of all the control and beta behaviour (like not pushing her out the front door).

--

Conclusion: we're both being strategic, and 'making it work' is probably the path of least resistance in the short term but not the long term.

Still, I do feel this is the best way forward. One of two things will happen:

1) Best case is that we work through underlying issues, I continue to improve on my alpha behaviour (but not screwing up by taking it too far and fast) and we get our lives back on track.

2) We try option 1, but it goes wrong and we break up. Does it matter if it's now or later? Well, I need some stability for a critical point in my career over the next month or two, and I genuinely would prefer to take the chance of the family doing better, so I don't mind seeing where this leads us. If it's going to end badly, I can get myself in a much better position than I am now where my income, sex rank and control over keeping the kids is better. 

gus

Just got a text: 'you had no right to call my dad.' FFS! I should have known: he's told his wife everything, and one or both of them have got in contact just in case my GF needs help getting away to her house. 

And I underestimated how much they probably want and excuse for her to move back there with the kids.

What a noob. It seemed like calling him and being honest was the best way forward. Why am I so damn beta?!

Eightbit

I'm lost. You're throwing her out but also having rough passionate sex with her and living like you're still together. No offense, but WTF?

gus

WTF indeed.

Notelrac

because we both want the kids.
Unless you negotiate an agreement, neither of you will get to decide.  A judge will.  And judges excel at coming up with settlements which make both parties deeply unhappy.  I strongly recommend that you "lawyer up" and find out what is legally possible for you to win in your jurisdiction.

I get the impression that both of you are lying your asses off to each other, and that you are both willing to use the kids as pawns.  Please prove me wrong.

gus

Found a text to her mother saying that we are apparently "good again and working things out". I think we've both been considering a secret plan B each, but seems like we know the easiest path is to try and get the relationship back on track, which means counselling and her giving me full transparency. Let's see if she lives up to that without me having to press for it.

The hard thing will be building attraction again, because that's the only way to avoid similar problems in the future (and even so, there's a lot of risk). 

Time for the MAP. I thought there wasn't time for it before, but if we can continue this slow burn, then the stage is set to implement the whole thing.

Templar

MAP is always a good idea. As Athol says, if it doesn't save this relationship, it will leave you in a better place for your next.

zeroday

Back to basics w your map. And on a side note you don't seem very outcome independent. If you are constantly afraid to address the hard stuff be aide it might threaten the pussy supply u r fucked. Read the chapter in nmmng about sex as the ultimate affirmation for the nice guy...as in "I didn't make her squirt with my penis and that's a problem."

gus

So there's been some big highs and lows since I last checked in, including one serious 911 event, but made it through. She withdrew the transparency one week ago after I was, admittedly, kind of a tool one night. Overdid the alpha and left her sleeping downstairs in the cold. 

This is more critical though: she's taken the kids away.

Backstory: she got the tattoo previously mentioned. It was her trying to rebel against the new alpha me, I think. She raised the topic again last week and I said I was indifferent to it, because Athol's book mentioned how girls sometimes just want to be a bad girl and better with you than someone else. I figured it's better to look like I don't care, though I had previously raised concerns that it's to make her naked body look sexy to others if she cheats again.

Moving on: we talked at length about general stuff again and it was positive, but agreed we both have an air of concern that we'll slip into 'plan B' mode which keeps both our defences up rather than move on as a confident and loving couple. On the plus side, she says she's okay with the transparency stuff again if it helps win back trust.

She also suggests that she doesn't like me pushing for sex in the mornings, when I wake up early. Some days she's totally game for it but others it seems I try to push through the anti-slut defence too much which must seem needy. 

Because of her tattoo I don't bother pushing for sex that night.

This morning I look at her phone, and she says the following to her friend [my comments in square brackets. For context, the friend recently started divorce proceedings with a guy who cheated on her]:

--

Her: Me and other friend have our tattoos, you're falling behind on our 30 list! [this is a list of things they want to do before. hitting 30. I don't know the contents of it but I know they have one]

Friend: That was the first thing I thought! Need to get a move on!

Her: You do love you do! How's your black man search going? Lol x [uh WTF]

Friend: Not very well tbh. Yours??

Her: Not even started. The guy tattooing me was a hot ginger though x [I later learn that ginger guys are on this list somehow]

Friend: Oh really! Brilliant! I'm working on that one! What do we have to do with the hot ginger?

Her: Sleep with! You talking about this Jack bloke? [Seeing this is in my top three all-time low moments]

Friend: Ah didn't realise it was the whole hog. We're going to be such slags!

[There is then a half-written message that says 'we have a long time' or something. I actually reply with 'only joking x' just to somehow diffuse the whole thing.]

--

I swear that is word for word what it says, I just typed it out. 

So I'm angry, and thinking 'well, I've already given you the ultimatum, so will have to end it.' I think of waiting until she gets back from a day out with the kids because I have work to do (self employed at home) and I need to focus rather than deal with some breakup, but then say fuck it and confront her.

I say, open your phone and read that. She does, somewhat hesitantly, but there's obviously no getting out of it. She's like, 'what?' so I grab the phone and read the 'highlights'. She says they were joking.

Here's what I do:

- Lose my cool

- Call my son over and tell her to apologise for destroying the family

- Shout and call her a whore (pepper this between most other steps). She keeps saying to stop swearing because she wants to control frame, I tell her not to tell me what to do and continue swearing

- Smash her computer on the floor, I think subconsciously to disable her access to Facebook

- Shout more and pick up the computer, throw it at the wall where it smashes a mirror on a dressing table , which has huge sentimental value to my mum because she got ready for her wedding in front of it. Girlfriend says 'Your mum is going to be so upset' - it dawns on me briefly but I ignore

- I get her suitcase and tell her to pack it

- I say something about her 'putting herself before her kids. My kids. My poor kids.'

- I grab her phone because it's my old phone, and say it's mine, to stop her texting friends. Later, I grab her spare phone from her drawer.

- I unplug the phone downstairs and take it to my office so she can't phone someone and run off. This proves a little stupid because I have back to go reconnect part of it to get my internet working.

- I stamp around and even bump into her a little while getting myself water and whatever.