She cheated, but she's back - still talking to him, though

LostOne

My wife and I have been married for four years. Things started out quickly - we had a one night stand where neither of us let go. We ended up getting married shortly thereafter. We have very similar interests and have great discussions, and that kept things going as we avoided a lot of the problems we had and didn't want to address. We have two young kids together, and that's definitely weighing on us both.

Primary problems:

My lower drive - this led to resentment towards me when I rejected her, and of course all of her friends thought it was absurd for a man to reject sex. I realize now that the problem was a combination of back issues from the army, as well as porn and video games desensitizing me.

My direction in life - basically, I didn't have one. She felt cheated that she had hitched herself to a man without a plan.


Lead up to now:

She started reading the forums and read the primer about a year ago, and sent me some links. I didn't realize what was happening. Last summer she started the FAP (I didn't know this) and I noticed her improvement. I started working on myself more in response (losing weight, improving focus), but it was too little too late. She had already checked out, which actually made it seem like things were working better, but it was a false reality. This spring she become emotionally involved with another man, and 6 weeks ago she left me for him. She left the kids behind, and eventually that wore on her and she realized that she might want to reconsider keeping our family together.

She returned to our house after 3 weeks with this guy, and said she wanted to make it work... maybe. She still has resentment from 4 years of sub-par marriage, and she doesn't trust me to change. We were in a very "classic" narcissist/codependent relationship, and neither of us want to go back to that. I've been working hard at getting in better shape (went from a 5-6, maybe in 7 territory) and am working on setting up a better life for us, but she's still on the fence. Worst part is, she's still talking to her affair partner. She says she still loves him, but hasn't decided what she wants to do. She wants to give me time to improve and hopefully win her back, for the sake of our family, but as of now she isn't ready to give up contact with this guy.

Honestly, I don't know why I'm still trying. I always thought of myself as the kind of guy who would go ballistic and set fire to everything if something like this happened, but instead I just feel sad, and have a newfound drive to improve myself, even if it doesn't mean I end up with her. That said, I still want her. My drive has picked up now that I have wholly abandoned video games and porn, and I've lost weight (6'2, down to 235 from 260) and have been seeing a physical therapist for my medical issues.

We are intimate together, which she says is terribly confusing for her, but that she enjoys. It was a tough choice to make (for both of us) but I felt it was one of the more direct ways to show her I had changed. My drive for her is stronger than ever, which could be a primal competitive push, but even after my normal (for dating) 3 week excitement and "newness" period, it's still all about her.

But back to the issue at hand. She's still talking to this guy (not seeing him, he lives far enough away that it's impossible without serious effort). She's still on the fence. I can lay down an ultimatum, which she said would just make her quit trying, or I can ride this out and see where it leads. Maybe there's a third option that I cannot see. She says she needs more time. I don't know how long I can handle this. I would love to build a new life with her and our children, but as of now, she doesn't seem dedicated to the idea. And yet, she's here now, and not with him, at least physically. I have no intention of "staying together for the kids" while living a miserable life - I want to build something real that we can both appreciate and enjoy.

So. What do?

Serenity

Hi and welcome to the Forum.

Please download the free Forum Orientation Booklet and answer the triage questions.

http://www.lulu.com/shop/athol-kay/mmsl-forum-booklet-free/ebook/product-20919811.html

Is your wife a member on the Forum?

Serenity

Here's a thread that may help you understand what happened.

http://marriedmansexlife.com/2012/09/what-your-partner-reading-mmsl-really-means/

LostOne

My wife reads the forum and has contacted Athol before, but she's gun shy as to the forum, since it's open for anyone to read.

Sorry if I breached forum etiquette, I just can't wrap my head around things. We have discussed the "What your partner reading MMSL really means" article, but only after she came back from her affair. She pretty much quit the relationship in August and just focused on herself, from what she says, and we didn't have good communication after that (or before, I suppose). I didn't grasp the concepts of that article until the worst had already happened.

TK421

She needs to cut off all contact with the other man if it's going to work with you. She's giving you a chance to step up and take charge of the situation or to tell her to get lost.

Templar

Welcome to the forum.
You have a great deal of catch up, but neither of you has the moral high ground. Having the affair before discussing the problem is ass-backward. You do have to work on yourself, but you both need to work on your relationship.

My quick list of things you can do that will usually help:
Stop playing all video games.
Stop smoking weed and quit all drugs.
Moderate alcohol.
Give up porn.
Make masturbation (without your spouse) infrequent.
Give your spouse/SO all your passwords to phones, FB, etc

This is the catchall list. If you do anything on it, follow the advice. Then, when you answer the list of questions, we can help you more. Because there will be much more to work on.

Serenity

No worries...you haven't breached Forum etiquette as far as I know.  It's a pretty friendly group, and I think you'll find people extremely helpful.  It's tough love around here.

When people post in the 911 thread, it helps if we have your background information.

The Forum Orientation Booklet is a free (and quick) download.  That's where you'll find the Triage questions.

LostOne

@Templar

That's a great list. I'm already doing everything on it. No video games, I never used drugs, I've had just a few beers in the past 6 weeks, one per sitting, and only in a social setting. I haven't watched porn in over a month and am currently using my wife as my exclusive sexual outlet. She is welcome to my computer, phone, anything, and knows it. She isn't reciprocating on the final point, though. I'll respond to the triage questions immediately following this.

spanky

Without her cutting it off there is no chance for your marriage.  Regardless, strap your balls on, stand up for yourself, and find your alpha frame.  Check the threads here in MMSL for tips on how to do that.  Fake it if you have to for now, but you have to stand tall.  I went through the same situation, didn't confront or slap it down, tried to "nice guy" it out and lost the relationship, but I've ended up as a much better man.  I wish that I would have stood up for myself in hindsight, I didn't handle it as well as I could have at the time. 

You need to answer all the questions with as much depth as possible.  People here can then help you better.  There is hope, this is do-able, but you have to be really willing and very honest with yourself going forward.  Good luck, everybody here is behind you in some fashion to succeed

Athol_Kay

Basically she needs to cut off all contact with the other man.

Had she made a genuine apology as yet?

Yup follow up with the forum booklet.

 

I'm so sorry to hear she cheated on you. Please understand that would not have been my advice.

LostOne

Triage questions:

1. My medical issue, specifically back pain, have been an impairment. I'm working on this, and recently I have been able to perform at or near 100%, all else being equal. I haven't had my testosterone tested at this point. My drive is currently matching hers.

2. I'm about 30 lbs overweight. I was more like 50 lbs overweight when the problems became noticeable. I am working on this and improving. She still finds me attractive, though she would definitely prefer I lost weight back down to the weight we were when we married. She's a solid 8, and I'm between a 6-7. I have enough money to keep us secure, but I have switched career paths multiple times since we were married 4 years ago, and I know this has her worried about my ability to stick to important things.

3. Early in our marriage (days in) I made the mistake of spending a considerable amount of time at my parent's house. It was very stressful for both of us, and I reverted to my single self's stress relief: video games. This put a huge strain on our marriage early on, and my wife has said that it's hard for her to reconsider things because we never had a good, solid baseline where things were going well that she can look back and hope to return - we would have to start from scratch and build an entirely new life together. Her resentment makes this more difficult than simply starting a new relationship with someone else, but I'm not in this for the easy way out.

4. There is an outside source of sex, or there was for a time. She left me after a few stressful days and went to live with a friend of ours who was "helping" her through her marriage problems, unbeknownst to me. She is still emotionally involved with this guy, and remains in contact with him, though not physically so.

5/6. The sex was amazing for the first few weeks we were together, but that was early in our relationship, and we got married very quickly (6 weeks after we met) and shortly thereafter tapered off because of my lapse into video game addiction. I have since kicked the video games and porn use, and our sex life has improved, though she is still hesitant to jump in with both feet, and continues conversing intimately with her affair partner.

7. I'm a narcissist. She's a co-dependent. She latched on to my drive and my ambition, which faded, and left her wanting. I allowed myself to take advantage of her co-dependency, and presented myself throughout our marriage with too much alpha, and too little beta. Her leaving me crushed my ego, allowing a narcissistic break, and I am trying my best to get out of the boom/bust cycle and become a healthy human being. I'm afraid she isn't ready for this stepping out of the paradigm, and is instead interested in latching herself onto another narcissist (like her partner is). Despite my fears and worries, I still want it to work, because I believe that both of us healthy and together can offer the best possible situation for our kids - though I understand that either of us continuing as we have is a recipe for disaster. http://gettinbetter.com/dance.html

8. I was the leader until she quit trying last summer. Then I started playing follower. At this point, I can't really figure out where we stand, so I'm guessing that means I'm definitely not the leader. Either she's in charge, or there's not really much of a relationship to speak of... hard to say. I always over-alphaed and never fully opened myself up emotionally to her, out of fear that I would be rejected as weak. She said that put a barrier between us that made it hard for us to connect.

9. Our marriage was never that good. We had problems from the start. As I write this, I feel like I'm admitting that we never had anything, and that we have zero hope, but I don't believe that. The spark we started with originally was incredibly powerful and we make great partners outside of the trouble areas of my sex drive and career goals. The good in our marriage is more of a future possibility than a past reality. I could very well be completely off my rocker for thinking we have a shot.

willie

I think everyone will tell you she has to cut off all contact with the OM if there is to be any chance.  She also needs to open access to everything.  Otherwise, she is just putting everyone through hell because she won't make a decision.  

LostOne

Continuation of 9: Our marriage sucked as far as sex went, and I think that weighed on her from the beginning. We have always been great partners, or best friends of a sort. We can always talk and we get each other's humor. The birth of our kids put a serious strain on us, as did a number of moves I made dragging us across the country, living out of boxes and making her uncomfortable with ever really settling in anywhere.

PhoenixDown

If she's reads the blog and forums, then she knows that she has to go no-contact with the other guy for there to be any chance for your marriage to work. She also knows that she has to be transparent with her email accounts, Facebook, and phone. None of this should be a surprise for her.

For her to say that she'll leave if you give her an ultimatum is pretty shitty gaming of the system on her part. If she's not willing to work with you and give you the transparency you need, and if she's not willing to let the other man go, then you deserve better anyway. Make the ultimatum and call her bluff, IMO. 

If you don't crack down on her talking to this guy, she won't respect you even if she stays with you.

LostOne

I have oneitis really bad. I haven't felt it in years, even while we were married. I was overconfident and thought we were special, that we could weather any storm together. She felt it the whole time, and that's what tore her apart, I think.

fredless

If my cheating wife told me that if I gave her an ultimatum of no contact with the cheating scumbag man that she would then leave me, I would be very nice about.

I would pack her fucking bags for her and wish her a nice life.

Athol_Kay

Well basically if you don't throw her back out because she's still in contact with the other man, she's knows you're hopelessly weak to her.

She's expecting it.

Wildflower

Ugh. I just saw a complete replay of my life for the past 6 months. She's already made her choice. The fact that she didn't end it straight away and already moved in with him is proof of that. I know it's hard. I do. But she's feeling guilt about the kids ... not about what she's done to you. Think about that. 

MrsLostOne

I might as well offer my side of tings. Usually, I'm not comfortable in participating in any open forum for privacy reasons, but I feel some added perspective might be helpful.

1. I was unaware of my husband's back issues for the first year of our marriage. Sex dwindled from multiple times a day during our courtship to weekly at best. Being that I was unaware of his medical issues, I blamed myself, winterized my vagina, and gained weight (though not to any extremes). I've always had an extremely high sex drive and the great sex was a major consideration in marrying my husband. By the time I realized what I was dealing with, I was already pregnant with #1 and essentially stuck. 

Re: my own health issues, I never used birth control until I recently got a copper, hormone free IUD. I was treated for subclinical bipolar (strong family history) in my late teens and have been on a mild mood stabilizer (lamotrigine) since. 

2. I think both of us were in the 8 range when we married. I had recently gotten into fighting shape, still suffered from some self-esteem issues from being a chunky teenager. We both gained weight after we got married, both settling in a "stable" low 7 range. I've been pregnant/nursing for much of our marriage, dropped to a semi-invisible state (who's going to pick up a pregnant chick?), which made me nervous. Eventually, my husband gained so much weight and let himself go so much (enormous unruly beard, overhanging gut) that I easily outpaced him. Once I weaned #2, around the time I discovered MMSL and gave my marriage my last ditch effort, I started on a strong FAP, eventually getting into even better shape than I was when I got married. I'm 24 and not 20 anymore, but objectively a low 8 just rolling out of bed - solid 9 if I put any effort in (and no question once I lose the last 10 lbs. I'm working on). Meanwhile, at least until he took stock of himself, my husband fell to a 5-6. Athol is welcome to confirm any of this through photographs.

On the non-physical side, my husband has dragged our family around the country a good 10 times in 4 years attempting to find a good career path for himself post-army. The first several moves, I supported him, thinking this would be "the one" that would make him happy (all I really cared about - finances were not an issue, but his sour moods would poison the household until he came up with another "scheme." I just wanted harmony). 

3. Our early marriage was a trainwreck - no idea why I stayed. I remember being 3-4 weeks in, crying on the phone to my parents, vowing to myself "this is were it started and it wasn't my fault." At this point I had known him for about 3 months. We married extremely quickly after meeting, which was a mistake. Stage 1 involved living with his overbearing parents (I didn't care, but they make him shut down emotionally) and filthy brother and sister-in-law. He was playing video games a good 8 hours a day and the sex nosedived. Stage 2 involved him moving us to the suburbs while I finished my last semester of college, creating an insane commute and screwing over my amazing GPA through stress... and then he left me there alone to pursue his own degree across the country (which he never finished anyway).

The birth of our first seems to be another major breaking point. I felt like I had to chose between him and our son. Likely some natural post-partum depression, but I got the strong feeling the baby was inconveniencing him and he barely helped (and indeed barely helped with the children in any capacity until recently). He was gone a lot working on some class (again, didn't finish that degree) and attempted to maintain our previous social life vs. adjusting to our new reality. Kid #2 was easier because I simply didn't expect any help, so I wasn't disappointed. I have significant bonding issues with both children.

4. I clearly have another sexual source going on in the form of my OM. It took *years* for me to crack - I had plenty of opportunities, a crappy home life, and minimal sex in the midst of a high sex drive. I can't describe how far I had to be pushed to even entertain the notion of cheating. My mom cried when I described what my marriage entailed, as I spoke little of my struggles to family/friends and defended my husband (who is considered an asshole by many) to the bitter end until I snapped. OM has a sex drive matching mine, I don't get the feeling that he loves me conditionally, and he takes care of me - my husband wouldn't even take care of me when I was sick (or even of the kids), saying it would set a bad precedent. Basically, my husband was postured as an Alpha, without having the accomplishments to back it up, making me extremely anxious and self-loathing... until I realized the problem was him.

For the record, my choice isn't a melodramatic OM vs. husband. There's a strong possibility I'll simply be single and return to where I was before I got married and attempt to salvage my stunted career. Despite dropping out of the workforce @ 21, I have a degree from a very prestigious university, and my old contacts have started headhunting me.

5. The sex went bad almost immediately into our marriage after a brief honeymoon phase. It seemed to settle into a every 3rd day pattern (which was tolerable, though not my ideal) very early on, and just dropped off from there. I made MANY efforts to improve it, literally cried about it, initiated so much that I gave up (I'm talking years of attempting to initiate).

MrsLostOne

6. We started as a one night stand. The first 2 weeks were amazing, extremely hot and heavy. I only had 1 partner before my husband (who was horrendous in bed), so I got sucked into an *insane* dopamine rush... which directly led to agreeing to marry so quickly and drop my very promising professional life. 

7. Elephant in the room? Sex. I was embarrassed to admit it for years, thinking it was my fault - not attractive enough or some other basic problem. Later on, my husband's constant career path changes began to wear on me, though I supported him publicly without fail.

8. My husband was doubtless the leader until recently. I probably made too much of a doormat of myself, but I believed he wouldn't have the marriage any other way. When we married, we agreed to a very traditionalist lifestyle, with me handling the housework, children, etc... He claims he would have compromised, but he blustered and threatened a lot and I didn't have the confidence to call him on it until it was too late.

9. Good times - about a month into any move we made. My husband would be full of promise about his new degree program/career, everything would be mostly unpacked (by me), happy stability. I'm pretty sure we had a pattern where any time things got difficult between us, my husband would shake things up with a move, and I'd be sucked into logistics/new hope. 

----------------------------------------------------

After I left, I stayed with my mother for a while, then moved in temporarily with the OM. I was convinced that the minute my husband found out, he'd immediately want a divorce - and that was exactly what I wanted. That'd fit his blustering pattern and that'd indicate same-old same-old, which is why I left anyway. Initially he did, but then I think he broke and softened when he realized what he had lost and his fault in the whole equation. 

I don't honestly know why I returned. Maybe residual hope that he has genuinely changed (it appears to be so - but you can understand why I wouldn't trust him given his history), a lot of concern for the kids. Some stalling too - I'm awful at confrontation. Also pure logistics - I couldn't stay with the OM indefinitely and not address basic financial/child realities here. OM doesn't think it's doing me any good and that I'm an idiot for letting my husband suck me back into his sphere. OM also hasn't seen the changes my husband has undergone, to be fair.

Anyway, just some perspective from the wife's side. The OM may have been the final straw that gave me the balls to leave, but I would have left regardless. I needed to before I was 35, with even more children involved, and even fewer option to get back on track with my life. I tried for *years* to improve things, stubbornly and consistently. I'm saddened that it took me leaving and having an affair to break through my husband's shell, but there it is. 

Alecto

Are you saying she left the kids with you and went and lived somewhere else for three weeks, just so she could have sex with some other guy?  Why would you even want her back?  @Wildflower is right, the guilt about abandoning her children caught up with her.