Hi,
New to MMSL forum though I have been getting the emails for a few months. Finally joined the forum to see if I can turn my life around and if I can save my marriage and family in the process.
I am your typical nice, i.e. beta guy. Not enough Alpha going on and my wife has, you guessed it 'fallen out of love with me.' I am a member of another forum where I have learned much in how I act towards her and I have set down many more limits but it has not moved her one inch. I think I now see why this is.
I am about 40 pounds overweight and currently unemployed. I am no lazy slacker and in fact have had jobs where I was making a very good salary and was able to take care of all of us. When we met, I was also a volunteer fireman so that, combined with my great job gave me enough alpha to balance my natural beta.
We have not slept in the same bed for 15 months had sex once during this time and were stuck until about 3 weeks ago where she presented me with divorce papers in front of a therapist we usually see separately. Since then she has made no move to file them. I am fine with this if this is what she wants, but I know she doesn't.
I truly believe, after reading more on MMSL the past few days that I can spark that love in her again, while maintaining my beta and just upping the alpha.
But I need some help! How does this plan sound?
No more TV nights feeling sorry for myself.
I am doing all I can to find a job and I feel that something is close, but I also write in my spare time so I will begin focusing on that again instead of playing poor me while vegging in front of the TV most nights.
Exercise EVERY day!
Eat more healthy.
Continue setting limits when she behaves in a way that is demeaning towards me or the kids.
Stop her when her behavior is having a harmful effect on the relationship. I know it is kind of too late here but perhaps if I start pointing things out, a level of respect can be reestablished.
What do you think? Any other suggestions to help me with my MAP?
Even if she files tomorrow, I now understand that I can't keep falling back into these bad habits that have led me to this place so I really want a good MAP to make me a better more balanced Alpha/Beta male who can feel good about himself again and attract someone amazing into my life. I really hope it will be my wife, but if not, I know I need to do this anyway.
Thanks for any assistance!
Comments
You've been in therapy regularly. I'd be willing to bet she's brought something up in that which you've done nothing about. What is it?
Please download the free Forum Orientation Booklet and answer the Triage questions.
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The Secret to Why Your Wife Doesn't Initiate; Top Two Reasons Your Husband Doesn't Want Sex; Dominance-It's Not a Bad Word; Top 10 Ways to Increase Testosterone Naturally
No, I don't go cow-tipping. It's too mainstream...
What was the therapist's response when your wife showed you the divorce papers?
What were the terms of the papers? Who was supposed to move out? Who was supposed to pay whom spousal support? Was the proposed property division equitable? Or are they all lopsided, with your wife expecting that the old "beta" you would roll over and sign whatever you put in front of her?
I am fine with this if this is what she wants, but I know she doesn't.
This is "mindreading". You will have to stop pretending that you know what your wife is thinking, because the past few years have shown that you suck at it. Instead, you're going to have to judge her by her actions -- in this case, her going and seeing a lawyer.
Make up your own mind -- do you want to stay married, or do you want to divorce? Saying "I am fine with whatever she does" is beta wishywashyness that will only perpetuate your issues with your wife. If she truly doesn't want divorce, then she does want you to step outside your comfort zone and begin taking charge.
I am not seeking divorce advice. I have spoken to 2 lawyers and I know exactly what my rights are and what either of us can do. I am also involved in a local mans support group who has given me lots of great advice on that end.
IMO the failure of this marriage is mainly because I have been too beta in the past. I have come a LONG way from that but I feel that I needed to step up my game even more. If saving the marriage was an effect of that, great, but I AM doing this for me. I came here seeking advice on getting together a plan to improve my Alpha skills so that it becomes a part of who I am. I can read about it and ‘know’ it to a high level of understanding but I have had trouble enacting it.
As for your assumption that me saying I don’t want a divorce but that I am OK if she does is some kind of beta trait, I guess I need to spell it out.
She is a big girl and capable of her own decisions. If she wants to go forward and file the papers, I will not stop her. I have been clingy and needy in the past and tried to have heavy conversations to talk her out of the direction she has taken. Totally counter productive which is why I don't do it anymore. Now when she brings divorce up, I simply tell her that I don’t believe in divorce except in extreme cases but if that’s what she wants, she is free to pursue that avenue on her own. The me not believing in divorce is where me not wanting one comes in. The papers she showed me 3 weeks ago are still sitting in her room with her name and address and nothing else filled in.
So, your opinion of wishy washy in my mind is the exact opposite. I am no longer trying to cling on to a woman who has chosen this path. Could I do this better? Probably, but I am steadfast in my frame at this point.
As for me mind reading, I guess I will have to spell this out as well. She told me 2 weeks prior to her showing me the papers that she still had hope and still wanted us to work out. She hasn’t told her mom, the one person she confides in the most. I asked her why not and she said she was not sure this was what she really wanted. I hope this clears up my psychic abilities.
I need to say that I appreciate anyone taking the time to read my story and offer me help. I do not mind criticism or a kick in the ass when it is deserved. I am a big boy and I take responsibility for my actions and for my part in ruining what once was a great marriage. To me it seemed as if you decided to dump on the newby and make a ton of assumptions after I laid it out there in order to make myself a better man. I don’t know you nor have I read any of your other posts to see how you treat others, but if this is the way you do it, you should probably stop doing it because in all honesty, you suck at it. I would have thought that after more than 2400 posts you would have been a little better.
I'll start by saying, "Keep pushing back on people who feel are dumping on you." Part of your dialing back the beta and becoming a better person will involve setting appropriate boundaries between yourself and what other people say to you. A lot of people posting here are in denial about their circumstances. I take the role of asking hard and confrontational questions. For what it's worth, five other forum members agreed with my post.
On the one hand, you are way ahead of most posters in that you have taken the steps of getting legal advice and joining a local support group. On the other hand, what you have described is a serious situation and your posting glossed over your own personal responsibility.
I went and read your intro post and have the following better-targeted advice. It'll get more applicable after you read the PDF orientation booklet and answer the questions there.
For example -- you are making an affirmative claim that you will be employed soon. What is your track record on making statements like this to your wife, and then following through? Do you have a history of disappointing her?
she started seeing a therapist who told her to stop having sex with me.
This is a Big Deal. Maybe therapists do things differently in Sweden than in the US. I'm surprised that you were not given specific instructions on how to help your wife heal. (And did you only hear this from your wife? Because it sounds like a great excuse for her to stop having sex with you.)
With respect to "wishywashy"... I respect your clarification, but I will continue to push back on you with the following argument:
In other words, this may be the wrong time to demonstrate "outcome independence" with respect to her bringing up the D-word. A marriage without sex, a marriage where the spouses have been sleeping apart for more than a year is a marriage in trouble.
I'll repeat two crucial questions:
1. What was the therapist's response in the session to your wife presenting the papers?
2. What are the terms in the divorce papers?
I'm not sure what @Notelrac is telling you is soaking in to you yet. I'll try to reword it a bit and see if that helps.
Let's not confuse 'beta' with weakness, ineptness, passiveness, lack of initiation or inaction. Beta is certain traits and behaviors that provide, comfort, support, security etc etc. It is NOT weakness or ineptitude.
When you say that you do not believe in divorce and that you do not want a divorce but you will sit by and let her divorce you without a fight, that is not alpha or outcome independance or lack of clingyness...IT IS WEAKNESS, PASSIVENESS, INACTION AND ALLOWING OTHERS TO WALK ON YOU AND DICTATE THEIR TERMS TO YOU.
Not standing up for your beliefs and self-interests is WEAKNESS.
Weakness, passivity and inaction are very UNATTRACTIVE AND UNDESIRABLE traits.
What has caused her to lose attraction and desire for you has been your lack of initiative, lack of action and lack of standing up for your own beliefs and self-interests over the years.
You can provide a lot of good beta and provide her with comfort, trust, security etc but there is a good chance that your passivity and lack of initiative and lack of taking action to better your life and to stand up for yourself have come off as simply being weak and lazy.
She is giving you an opportunity to step up the plate here and she is offering it on a silver platter. If you continue with this passive inaction she WILL divorce you and move on and she will do it very soon. But if you stand up for yourself and start taking definitive action to improve your situation and to save your marriage you do have a chance at the moment, but that window of opportunity is closing fast.
Here is why it is hard. The same thought patterns and problem solving skills that got you into the problem are going to be applied to get you out, but using the advice. Most people are not good enough at self and relational analysis to truly find where the most significant problems lie. Nor any more truly understanding of what our actions do to the relationship and ourselves. We are all excited when we read about Alpha Beta and are quick to apply one or the other in broad strokes to ourselves "knowing" that we merely need to "up" the other trait and boom! the marriage is saved.
With the book, alone, you will be helped. BUT you have to be completely honest with yourself in a way that most people aren't. When people here, including @Notelrac (who is TRULY very helpful in his no-holds-barred honesty, insightfulness and logical thought patterns) sound like they are coming off as quite harsh, it is tough love. This isn't their first rodeo. THEY ARE TRULY trying to help you.