My situation 1 - 5

cxagent

1 - Rule out Medical
 I'm 54, she is 45.  I have been diagnosed with low testosterone and am using a supplement.  
The doctor keeps changing which supplement because one seems to work for a short time then quits working.  
I can tell very quickly if it working or not.  She is roughly 10 year past menopause.  She is on an estrogen
gel supplement.  As far as I know we are both as healthy and normal as we can be.  And we have both seen the
doctor many times.  We started dating in 1994 and got married in 2000.
2 - Structural attraction
Both of us are employed and financially stable.  We own our house (with the mortgage co) and several rent properties.  
I plan to retire in about 5 years on the rent property income.  I am 6'4" and currently 230 pounds.  I have gained 15
pounds in the last two months.  I am very active and road or mountain bike 50 to 100 miles per week.  I have little bit
of a gut but very little fat elsewhere.  The cardiologist says I need to be below 200 pounds.  I got down to 210 pounds
once but had no energy and felt horrible.
She is 5'2" and about 140 pounds.  She used to be 120 pounds and currently gaining weight fast.  I don't give her any
grief over her weight because she recognizes it and is starting to exercise and diet again.  Neither of us are movie
star looks but I don't think either of us is unattractive.
3 - Critical moments and neglect
Here is where I think the problems are.  I am self employed and am virtually always at work.  But since I work out of
the house, I can be home a lot.  And I can and do take time off frequently for special events/occasions.  I do have to
travel but rarely for more than a week at a time.  (I used to travel for a month at a time with previous employer and
ex-wife.)  I have never cheated and I don't think she has.

I know she resents my being out exercising/bike riding because she has told me.  I changed my schedule to keep
Friday evenings and one of the two weekend days, and holidays open for her to chose what we do.  I ditch bike rides
completely for us to go to the coast to windsurf.  We take every February for both of us to snow ski.  She has started
biking to share in the fun and exercise I'm getting.  She doesn't like it as much as I do but she does seem to enjoy it
some.   I have tried many things to help her feel more included but they seem to work for a short time and then revert back
to resentment.  I catch her constantly making cutting comments about me to other people - even in front of me.  Until
recently, I ignored those until we were alone to tell her I was hurt by those comments.  Frequently, she didn't seem to
remember what I was talking about even when I repeated the comments in context back to her.  Sometimes that jogged her
memory, sometimes not.  So I am now identifying those comments in real time no matter who is there.  This change is
recent enough that I don't think I can say what the results are yet.  I consider these comments to very disrespectful and
hurtful to me.

4 - Outside sexual sources
She has acted like she wants to have sex, frequently right after one of the cutting comments above.  At the moment I'm the
one who isn't interested. (more below)  I felt like this started because she frequently turned me down when I was
interested to 'suddenly be interested' later.  Between the cutting comments and the appearance of trying to use sex for
control, I'm not very interested in sex lately.  This is a long way to say I don't think she is getting sex elsewhere.  
I know we both masturbate because she has told me.

5 - When did the sex go bad
It has been about 2 years since I noticed major problems.  At first it was my low T and blood pressure meds that included
a diuretic.  That has been improved significantly.  I'm using a T supplement and only take the blood pressure meds
(no diuretic) on occasion.  (If I exercise enough and aren't pissed off about the situation, I don't need the BP meds at
all.  Lately I've had to quadruple the dose to get my BP down.)
The sex definitely went away over time so I have trouble attributing it to a specific time or event.  The one event I can
recall was one night I tried to initiate sex and she said "it ain?t happening".  The next morning she said it was because
she had put the estrogen get in and we could not have sex that night.  She suggested we needed to "schedule it".  After a
few similar incidents I felt like sex was being used against me.  Since it wasn't very good anyway, it wasn't worth the
bother.  Now she feels like I stopped having sex with her.  And I have turned her down several times  usually when it feels
like a means to gain control.  The last time we attempted to have sex was when we got back from this year's ski trip.  For
the last ~10 years, one of her comments was telling everyone within earshot that "That run was better than sex".  Not too
bad the first few times I heard it but after hearing it for years (and saying it was inappropriate, offensive and hurtful),
I was hearing her tell everyone around that "that run was better than sex with my husband".  (I almost turned to the lift
operator she had just said that to and said "Ask her if she remembers what sex was".)  I had just been to the therapist who
suggested that turning her down was damaging to her self esteem (no words of wisdom about turning me down and my self
esteem).  So even though I really wasn?t in the mood (she had pissed me off again with another cutting comment) I went
ahead.  I was going down on her when I hear the words "big fat powder skis".  I stopped and that was the end of my interest
in sex with her until we get this worked out.  Now we are both seeing the therapist for couples counseling to try to get to
a solution.

cxagent

6 - Sex at the start of the relationship
The sex was great for the first 10 - 15 years.  It dropped off after she hit menopause.  It really drops off when my T level is low.  Currently, I would say the sex is mediocre.  I hope to get it back to great, but at least to good.
7 - What's the elephant in the room?
I think I have already hit on what seems to be the big issues that we can't get passed.  She feels like I would rather do something with someone else (biking, etc.) and I have become very sensitive to her cutting disrespectful comments.  The therapist is telling us we have a communication issue because I don't say the first thing that comes to mind and she does.  I am absolutely certain she does NOT want to hear the first thing that comes to my mind when she makes some of her comments.  And the therapist is trying to make me into the "perfect male".  That would be the touchy feely metrosexual who gushes their feeling all over.  I don't fit into that mold and keep telling the therapist that it's not going to work.  If I have to change my personality that drastically we might as well admit defeat and move on.  (In my work, I have to match wits with engineers, architects, lawyers, etc and convince them that their approach is wrong and they need to try my approach.)

8 - Who is the leader?
I am.  Sometime it seems like she is trying to maneuver for control, but it doesn't go very far.  If I am having to wrestle control back from lawyers in depositions where they ask the questions and I can't, I'm fairly adept at getting control back from most people.  Introducing sex into the equation changes the dynamic but not the outcome.  But that is why I have declined sex lately.

9 - The good times
I could write many many pages on this one.  I will try to summarize the situations instead of specific occasions.  They are when we are doing active things, which we both enjoy, together.  When we can go to the coast windsurfing is wonderful.  We frequently sail together for run after run until her hands can't hold onto the boom anymore.  When we go snow skiing and the two of us get to go ski alone is wonderful.  We play a kind of hide and seek in the trees seeing who can find the best line with the deepest snow.  I am very happy when she will mountain bike with me.  I have to wait for her and help her through things (or avoid the technical trails), but I still enjoy it immensely.  I recognize that she is scared by the mountain biking I do but I am happy to ride at her pace, at her skill, for her distance and that she will try.  I like to be active and do things that I will never truly master.  She seems to enjoy most of them once she has learned the basic skills.  She is a better technical snow skier than I am and can ski circle around me on a water ski.  So don't take it that I am dragging her into things she is not ready for or capable of.

Serenity

Hi and welcome to the Forum.  You'll get lots of help here.

sasha

Welcome!

Have you read the Primer?
If so what Phase are you in?

Her hurtful comments... they are shit tests and she needs to cut that out. If she's got a problem with something, being passive aggressive by expressing it through hurtful words is not working towards a solution.

How about beginning with an I statement which sounds like you've already done, "I am hurt by your comments and I would like you to stop." "I think your comments are passive aggressive and I think there are other ways we can deal with issues between us."

If she does it again... The Captains on the forum use a technique called agree/escalate to handle shit tests. Basically you give her a dose of her own medicine. You do it with a smile on your face and ski away.

You refusing her initiating sounds a bit passive aggressive on your part. Look into outcome independence and covert contracts.

My guess is she got frustrated too sometime around the changes to your sex lives, her menopause, your low T. I think you may need some help getting control of the sex but knowing what Phase you are in will help.

I'm half commenting to bump this thread up so you get some forum Captains helping you out. They are awesome.

Just came across this thread, http://marriedmansexlife.vanillaforums.com/discussion/5076/shit-tests

cxagent

I ordered the primer and just got it today.  So I haven't read anything yet.  I guess that means I'm phase zero.

sasha

oh yea, read that right away!
You may find your answers in the book.
The forums are icing on the cake.

Notelrac

low testosterone ...The doctor keeps changing which supplement because one seems to work for a short time then quits working.  
I have gained 15 pounds in the last two months.  I am very active
The cardiologist says I need to be below 200 pounds.  I got down to 210 pounds once but had no energy and felt horrible.
blood pressure meds
Go see an endocrinologist.

Based on the description of how the two of you spend your leisure time, your wife needs more intellectual stimulation than you are currently providing.

Brick

What supplement does the doc have you on for low T?  

Serenity

Low T can be a tricky condition to manage.  This thread is great.

http://marriedmansexlife.vanillaforums.com/discussion/1936/examples-of-utterly-clueless-gps-trying-to-diagnose-low-t#latest

Athol_Kay

Welcome to the forum.

cxagent

Got the book yesterday.  I'm just starting read chapter 5.  Some times insomnia can be useful.

Currently on Fortesta.  Started with Androgel for about 1.5 years (worked for a while, then stopped).  Then shots (work but are a roller coaster).  Then pellets (90 days later I was back to almost zero).  I think I will see an endocrinologist to figure this one out.

@Notelrac - maybe I should add a few things I didn't mention in my intro.  I'm an engineer and my wife has said many times I talk over her head when I talk to others around her.  I took her to the symphony and such when we were dating.  She said she passed the time by counting the various instruments.  I constantly work on keeping the conversation with her and everyone else at their level.  Some of the most brilliant people I have known (aerospace, military, NASA, university, etc.) had an amazing way of adjusting their communications to fit the audience.  I try to emulate that skill. The point being that there is not shortage of intellectual stimulation just for the asking.

cxagent

I'm almost finished with the primer but thought I would respond to the question about what phase I'm in.  I'm having trouble identifying a specific phase per the descriptions in the book.  I'm definitely not in phase one (SR lower) or two (SR equal).  I want to say I'm in phase three but have some phase 5 & 6 issues happening.  Before I found this site and started reading the book, I have been doing a lot of the Alpha things in the book and have added quite a bit of Beta per the marriage councilor's (sp?) suggestion.  I think I was too Beta before and adding Beta did NOT help.  I'm going to finish the book but i'm already implementing the MAP.

Some examples of my confusion:  My SR is higher and hers keeps going lower (Ph3).  That is because both of us have gained weight lately but my 15 pounds added to 220lbs doesn't work nearly as bad as her 25 lbs on 120 lbs.  And she keeps eating crap.  We started getting My Fit Foods and I see ice cream and such containers in the trash.   I know AK says women can bump their SR by one or two points quite easily.  I'm not so sure it works here.

I jumped over Ph 4 becasue I didn't clearly state my intentions.  The one time that was close is she was upset and we were having a 'discussion' (we don't fight), I told her I had no intention of leaving her.  That helped settle the discussion but it may have been worse for me in the long run. 

I have had LOTS of contact with other women (Ph5) - most of who like me and flirt constantly.  When I started mountain biking heavily (~5 years ago) I took a class that was mostly women.  I have been riding with mostly women ever since.  I have introduced everyone to my wife and make it clearly known that I am married.  Several of the women have even asked my wife for permission to mountain bike with me. (One finished the Boston Marathon BEFORE the bombs went off.  These women are serious athletes!)  While I didn't do this specifically as part of Ph5 of the MAP, I think it is part of what I was  doing similar to the actions listed in the book.  To this day, the majority of the riders I ride with are women, but there are usually several men on the rides as well.  She has started to mountain bike with me, as she said "so she wouldn't get left behind".  Also as part of Ph 5, I have started getting finances straightened out and backed up.

On a different topic - I have also been reading about other mens' experience with low T and endocrinologists.  Before I jump in to an endo I'm going to take a bunch of info to the urologist I'm seeing now.  He has been FAR better than other doctors I've seen.  For example, I didn't have to tell him that just getting into the lowest part of the "normal range" does NOT mean I'm fine.  He already said he want to get me to the middle of the range (600, not 300).  But since my estrogen is also high, there is some good info I want to show him.

DaveBowman

You're muddled, be clear about the Plan part of Male Action Plan.

Assume you're in Phase 3, be ready to move into 4 again, be very clear and to the point on expectations. Don't skip phase 5 before going to 6. 

Clean edges are important. 

sasha

It does sound like you're in Phase 5, giving up on her doing anything to improve the marriage and finding fun elsewhere while you get your ducks in a row. Maybe you skipped over Phase 4? Stating your intentions clearly. That might be something you'll have to revisit after you get your low T thing figured out. Medical issues (like low T) tend to reduce the effectiveness of running a MAP and getting your SR higher than hers. If you want to give her a chance to fix things though, she has to know EXACTLY what you want/expect. Then you have to give her the appropriate amount of time to work on those issues. You also have to be prepared to help Captain her through them. If she eventually gives up trying, that's when you can move to Phase 5 with a clear conscience.

Also, there is a big difference between what you think your SR is and what your wife thinks it is.
What do think she would say if someone asked her who's SR is higher between the 2 of you? Phase 4 has no real chance of being successful unless she truly believes your SR is higher than hers.

cxagent

I appreciate all the comments. 

@DaveBoman - I understand your points.  But just to be clear, everything I have done up to this point has been BEFORE I got/read the primer.  Now I need to clean up some things I didn't know about.

@Sasha - I DID skip Ph 4 because I didn't know about Ph 4.  That is one of the things I need to clean up.  I think my SR is higher for a lot of reasons.  Not the least of which was the last meeting with the therapist.  She said REPEATEDLY that she wanted to have sex with me and that I turned her down repeatedly.  Hmm, seems that my point was received loud and clear.  If you want to use sex against me, you better make damn sure it is so good I won't mind.  Otherwise you should expect trouble, like your game being played on you.

cxagent

DW came home late last night from her parents.  She brought home a big bag of Tootsie Rolls.  Or I should say she brought home half a big bag of Tootsie Rolls.  Hmm, I thought we were dieting.  I think she is trying to get back at me for being out riding last night.  Or is this the sabotage that AK was talking about in Phase 2?  Will it may sabotage her, but I'm not into it.

Note - I did check, she was at her parents house last night.

cxagent

Finished the book but I have several Issues I want to run by others to see if I'm handling things right.  I need to understand the right ratio of alpha to beta.  Here are a couple of situations that came up and how I handled them.

I had a standing ride scheduled with two of my women mountain biking buddies on Thursday nights.  It fell apart over the winter but we had all three said we wanted to start them up again.  Then I see pictures posted on Facebook where the Thursday night ride took place and I wasn't invited/notified.  I wasn't happy about it, but it wasn't too upset.  I did get upset when I get an email from one of the two women "explaining" that it was supposed to be a 'girls only ride' but someone had invited a couple of guys.  She said that she felt bad that I had been excluded when it wasn't a 'girls only' ride.  Then she asks me for a favor to take one of her friends husband out riding so he could meet other mountain bikers and start riding.  I smelled shit test all over it.  I sent her back a short email - "I emailed him".  The next morning I posted on Facebook - "Here is an interesting thought - if you want/need a favor, don't start it with an apology."  No names.  No description. Just what is in quotes.  She saw that,knew it was about her and texted me. I have never see such a  long emotional text.  Apologizing, "it was a girls ride", why are you so pissed at me, etc.  I didn't respond until the next evening. when I sent her the following email -

I’m not even sure how to respond to your text but I need to. 

First – I deleted the post.

Second – I value your friendship.

Third – I don’t care to go on an all-girl ride.  You ladies can do what you want, when you want.

Forth – If you want/need a favor – ask for the favor.  If you need to apologize to the person, then maybe that person isn’t who you should be asking for a favor.  Or you need to clear up whatever is wrong before you ask for a favor.  Your apologize/favor email pissed me off more than just asking for a favor or seeing the pictures posted because it said you recognized the issue and asked for a favor anyway.  That stinks of a shit test.

How did I handle that with respect to the MMSL so far?

That evening my DW wants to talk about "my behavior".  I tell her what happened and how I saw things and showed her the email I sent.  She said that she didn't see it that way and I had hurt my friend.  I said "And?" She said this could lead to the end of our friendship.  I said "This friendship has become pretty one directional so I don't see that as a problem."  DW seemed surprised and said "Well?  OK!"  I think DW recognized this as a 'shot across her (my wife's) bow'.  I don't care to stay in a one directional relationship.  And she got see exactly how I felt about a shit test.

Any comments on my 'behavior'?  Any suggestions for how to improve?

Second situation in separate post below.

cxagent

Second situation -

I wanted to do a long hard ride on Sunday to work off some frustration.  Instead I lead DW and her riding female buddy around a new trail.  I didn't complain or embarrass them or try to push them in speed or difficulty - I just rode their pace and tried to make it enjoyable for them.  We stopped for lunch and the friend left her cell phone on a picnic table in a local park.  We were about half way back when she noticed the phone was missing. I rode back and found the phone was no longer on the table.  I called it repeatedly and never heard a ring.  I checked lost & found, etc.  The phone was gone.  Fortunately, she had set up FindMyiphone on it just days before.  She used my phone to get an update on where her phone was.  The location was reported to be deep in the heart of the barrio.  The friend said "I'm not going to get it back from there."  I said let's get back to the cars and I will go get it.  To make a long story shorter, I took the friend and went into the barrio and got the phone back.  I had to be diplomatic and threatening at the same time.  The guy that took it tried to say "he gave it to his cousin".  I showed him my iPhone that showed the location was still in this guy's duplex and suggested he go get it from his cousin because the cousin wasn't far away.  The friend was amazed that I had the nerve to go there and talk the guy into giving back something he could sell.  On the way back the friend tells me that DW had told her repeatedly to go with me because I stood a good chance of getting the phone back.

So this shows alpha on my part and DW recognizes my alpha and even tells her friends about it.

I also showed beta by doing the dishes (I always do) and several loads of laundry (I always ask her to sort everything so I didn't screw up).  She seemed very appreciative of the domestic chores.  I also took her to Shakespeare in the Park the evening after the phone situation.  Too beta???

So questions for the group.  Should I have handled these two situations better?  Is this an appropriate alpha/beta mix?  Any suggestions for improvement?

Eightbit

I see people pull that shit on Facebook all the time, where they make some generic comment everyone knows is about a specific person. It's passive aggressive at its worst. If you were trying to slap down what you thought was a fitness test you should have done it directly.

BoneDaddyJive

I'm confused about the first scenario. Who was shit testing you? One of your riding buddies? Fitness tests come from your spouse from the female body agenda - testing your fitness as a mate. Why would a riding buddy test your fitness as a mate?

I agree with eightbit that the FB post was passive aggressive.

BoneDaddyJive

With the second one, I think my ovaries tingled a little bit - and I'm a dude.

Except I would lay off the housework a little bit. It is a bit beta-ish, and certainly won't get you laid.