When she knows you're trying to be dominant... and shuts it down with infinite shit tests

gus

So in relationship counselling I said my "theory" about how she used t lose attraction to me because I was never being dominant, and recently when I've been more assertive she's been more attracted to me. 

She didn't like hearing that and clammed up, and we haven't had sex since. Now she's purposely not doing anything I say or suggest, even if it flies in the face of common sense. 

I know they're just big shit tests, and it's my fault for letting the cat out the bag (though she has been saying I've been too controlling lately, which was initially true while I was new to MAP but for the past two weeks it's not).

The only one I diffused well was, weirdly, using pure logic, but I guess it was also because I was being calm and assertive. But there's so many day-tot-day things that genuinely need doing, and to be honest the scale of her shit testing makes her a piss-poor FO.

I guess my question is this: how can I get out of this loop where she is AWARE of me being assertive and having her hamster consciously reject it?

There's some things she hasn't noticed yet... like in bed, I'll say 'come here' and she'll snuggle over to me. But maybe she's okay with that because it's a slightly beta move too.

Serenity

Ouch @gus.  One thing you have to realize is that it's very difficult for any woman who's had a Westernized, feminized education to admit that she actually *likes* dominance.

Even for me, with as much red pill information as I've read, it's still an extremely uncomfortable idea and my mind doesn't like it.

However, now that the cat's out of the bag and it's become a control issue for her, what to do? hmmm.....

I would say that number 1, make sure you don't engage in any more discussions about it. Let your actions speak for themselves until she's convinced that your changes are permanent and not just a phase you're going through.

Lead by example and keep Mapping. Be firm with her when she doesn't meet your expectations and let her know she's not pulling her weight. Maintain your frame, be a man you (and she) can respect, and eventually she'll come around.

garbanzo

I also did this in an MC session but I said 'assertive' instead of 'dominant' and I didn't mention the link to attraction. She absolutely agreed that I needed to be more assertive and has appreciated my efforts. Your choice of words is very important when introducing the red pill to the hamster so tread carefully in the future. Based on things she has said in the past an the fact that she likes to be called names in bed, it was obvious to me that my wife has some red pill in her so I wasn't too worried about claiming my assertiveness. You gave the hamster a bunch of food so tread lightly but go ahead and be assertive, just be prepared to deal with the shitstorm, recognize when you have gone too far, and above all else - maintain frame.

Serenity

@steu2817 is absolutely right. 'I want' statements are golden.  Preface everything you say with a simple 'I want'. My husband has been doing this for the last couple weeks (I think he read it in NMMNG ) and the results have been really good.

More than anything else, it's helping him break out of the 'nice guy' mold.

sf64

Gus,

IMHO, you need to take a step back here, go read the Primer again, and understand that your relationship isn't going to be fixed in a short period of time.

The MAP is a journey.  It takes time.  It took you time to dig the hole you are in.  It will take time to right the ship.

It feels like you are saying "Hey!  I am being more assertive and aggressive.  Why isn't my wife instantly responding?"  

The fitness tests are a result of her bumping back against the more assertive you.  She is trying to figure out how real is the change. But this whole process can't be forced.  You need to run the MAP for you.  She will either get with the program or she won't.  No guarantees.

But what I can guarantee is that you haven't been at this long enough for a real change to set in and a real sustained difference to be experienced by her.

DaveBowman

I think letting her rational mind know what you're doing is just going to slow down your MAP, but not disable it altogether. You've crossed that bridge so no looking back now, just don't talk about it again would be my advice.

The escalating shit tests are themselves a shit test, if you know what I mean. She doesn't believe you can stay alpha and "the man" in the relationship. So keep it going... it may take longer but then pay off bigger.

I don't think you'd be seeing this escalation if she didn't secretly/unconsciously  want you to pass them...

neen

I want to make a comment about what assertiveness looks likes in other countries where men rule....My Uncles on my Fathers side......I would consider all of them to be perfect males......here are a couple of examples.

 

When their children run outside without their shoes to play on the hot surface.....they go out and say

'sweetheart put your shoes on'

 

When their wives need  clothes ......they make an apt with local vendor for material, husband and wife go together and they are shown beautiful fabric in a private showing and they make selections. The vendors are male and the husbands pays. Husbands make final selections with wives input. Same with jewelry......this is a sign of respect and love for their wives.

This is what a dominant male  looks like in India.

SugarAndSpice

steu2817 said:

A very valid point and one that is easily overlooked by those new to the MAP. 

An true captain isn't just dominant in seeing that his needs are met, but is dominant in seeing that everyone in the family is having their needs met. 

Yesterday morning, my wife expressed to me that she was feeling a bit run down and cooped up in the house (can't get out much when you're raising a 4-week-old baby). 

So I booked her a message, came home from work early, and told her to go enjoy her message and do some shopping while she was out. When she protested, I put my foot down.

Her: "But the baby will need to be fed in an hour."

Me: "So I'll give her a bottle."

Her: "But she's never taken a bottle."

Me: "I taught the previous two how to take a bottle, I can handle this one as well."

Her: "But, we can't afford it."

Me: "Yes we can. No quit arguing and JUST GO!"

Then I literally pushed her out the door. 

The whole point is wives are going to be less averse to dominance if it's clear that the dominance isn't just about what you want, but about being a leader for the whole family.

That is such wonderful Captaining.

Very good balance of alpha and beta - taking charge, telling her what to do yet taking care of HER needs.

Serenity

@steu2817 ; Wise words. You are on quite a roll lately.  You take my breath away. lol

neen

Nothing more attractive than an American male wanting his wife to be happy!

Serenity

More seriously @steu2817 , it seems like something has clicked for you and you're understanding the difference between being 'the boss' and being 'the leader'.

As you say, it's the difference between trying to control your wife and leading her.

gus

steu2817 said:

Why oh why did you try to give her the red pill in counseling???? Oh well, what's in the past.......

I suggest you start over and be a little more careful with your wording. Instead of trying to control her, just control yourself and assert your desires. So:

1. Don't let her tell you what to do. Don't let her control you.

2. Don't tell her what to do. Instead, state your desires. Example:

"I want you to make supper." 

"I'd really like it if you would get me a samwich"

"I want you to come here."

"I want you to suck on my cock"

Then, if in response to either of these two things, she complains that you are controlling, simply make a one sentence statement about why you're not controlling her. If she makes the statement in response to you saying 'no' to her demands, just point out that she's the one trying to control you. If she makes the statement in response to you making an "I want" statement, just say that you are not trying to control her, she is perfectly capable of saying 'no', you are just expressing your desires. 

Don't get into a damn discussion with her hamster. Just make a simple one sentence statement about why you are not controlling her, you are just asserting what you want. 

The easiest to avoid her complaining that you are trying to controlling her, is stop trying to control her. 

Because of a damn thread on this forum! I did it wrong anyway. Whatever. Lesson is, don't qualify yourself - anywhere.

Edit: excellent advice there, thanks.

Operation_Barbarossa

I think there are 2 "Blue Pill" ways to explain what you're trying to get to without using the idea of dominance at all:

1) No woman wants to have sex with a dude who she treats more like one of her children than her husband. So...you have to stop acting like one of your wife's children and she needs to have enough confidence in you to let you start doing some of the heavy lifting of the relationship/household (i.e. making important decisions, doing things without her permission or approval, being allowed to make mistakes without being brow beaten to death, etc). That confidence must be earned, it won't be freely given...yep it's all on you.

2) There is some solid "blue pill" evidence that doing nice things for people actually makes you happier and makes you appreciate those people more. Yes, I know we all think of it the opposite way...if someone makes me happy then I'll reward them by doing what they want.  However it works in reverse as well. If I do something for you and think of all the wonderful things about you that make me want to do it, then I'll be happier and more in love with you.

There will be people and women who just will not except everything MMSL has to offer. I've come to learn that some of the more successful men on this site have wives who know absolutely nothing about it and would never agree to being submissive. If you're doing it right your wife will not think she's being submissive at all, she'll think she's being loving and sexy for you because she knows you enjoy it. I am totally in agreement with the above as well, it's not being dominant, it's communicating what you want. She is free to say no, but both of you will benefit from her saying yes. Same goes in reverse though. As captain, if someone is asking you something reasonable then there is no reason you can't help them out.

gus

Serenity said:

More seriously @steu2817 , it seems like something has clicked for you and you're understanding the difference between being 'the boss' and being 'the leader'.

As you say, it's the difference between trying to control your wife and leading her.

This is it. It's about being a leader, not the boss. I need more practice, but I'm getting there, and I really enjoy it. 

CMH

Serenity said:

More seriously @steu2817 , it seems like something has clicked for you and you're understanding the difference between being 'the boss' and being 'the leader'.

As you say, it's the difference between trying to control your wife and leading her.

@Serenity ; This is exactly what I was thinking as I was reading through these posts.  It's all about leadership.  It's not about bossing your wife/family around.

Danceny

Congrats, you just made your job twice as hard as it needed to be.  But you didn't change qualitatively what you need to do, so just keep at it.

Angeline

Regarding the double standard canard - the next time you see a news story about a man running into a burning house to save his family, ask her what she would think if the man stood by while his wife ran inside. Double standard? You bet.

TedD

"According to her, I am a tyrannical chauvinist caveman who wants to treat her like she's my property and use her to gratify my bestial desires and then force her to serve me by bringing me drinks afterwards"

Sounds about right.  Although I don't usually request drinks after. :P

myrtle

I grew up in a church that emphasized wifely submission, and with lots of adult role models, as well. Unsurprisingly it's a big part of my adult eroticism. (Though I am now an atheist, I am fairly skeptical about the evo-psych just-so stories behind it, but whatevs.) All I know fo sho is, it feels good as hell to submit to someone who turns you on, and who you know has your back.

Nevertheless, I would still not enjoy being lectured about it in MC. If we are in MC, it's because it stopped feeling good a loooooooong time ago. Either he stopped turning me on, or he stopped having my back, and him trying to "get me to submit" is doing an end-run around the problem.

If the problem is still there and I submit, I will eventually hate him, or myself, or both.

In fact, a guy who has to lecture me about it doesn't get it a- fuckin'-all, no? Maybe he will eventually, but he is simply not within striking distance yet!

Operation_Barbarossa

Can someone give me an example of where there would be a double standard? Honestly, if you need a double standard in your own brain to make this work then fine, but it really shouldn't effect your wife.

Here's why...you should not be asking your wife to do anything unreasonable and you should asses what your wife is asking you to do and only if it's unreasonable should you be treating it as a shit test.

In reality there is no double standard as far as I can see. Yes, I like the idea of being captain, but in practice it doesn't look like a double standard at all. If I'm wrong here, someone correct me or give me a good example.

sconzey

Operation_Barbarossa said:Can someone give me an example of where there would be a double standard? 

There is of course The Double Standard; that a woman who has sex with a lot of different men is a slut, and penalised in future relationships, and a man who has sex with a lot of different women is a stud, and is not penalised or is even aided in future relationships.

Evo-psych or not, it's rational for both men and women to behave like this, because the sexes aren't symmetric. It's rational for men to penalise sluts in long term relationships because of paternal uncertainty, and it's rational for women to not penalise men for sleeping around, because maternity is never in doubt.

Or as the old joke goes: If a key fits many locks, it is a master key. If many keys fit a lock, it is a shitty lock.