When she knows you're trying to be dominant... and shuts it down with infinite shit tests

Chimpy

Serenity said:

@steu2817 is absolutely right. 'I want' statements are golden.  Preface everything you say with a simple 'I want'. My husband has been doing this for the last couple weeks (I think he read it in NMMNG ) and the results have been really good.

More than anything else, it's helping him break out of the 'nice guy' mold.

The classic response to "I want..." is of course "I want don't get". As used by generations of parents the world over. Whats the response to "I want don't get" in this situation?

SugarAndSpice

@Serenity said:

More seriously @steu2817 , it seems like something has clicked for you and you're understanding the difference between being 'the boss' and being 'the leader'.

As you say, it's the difference between trying to control your wife and leading her.

This can be very difficult to understand as the differences can be subtle and non-obvious but IMHO, it is crucial to understand if you want to be successful. Would it make sense to start a separate thread on this topic? Not to speak for the Captains, but I feel many running the MAP could benefit.

sconzey

Chimpy said:

Serenity said:

@steu2817 is absolutely right. 'I want' statements are golden.  Preface everything you say with a simple 'I want'. My husband has been doing this for the last couple weeks (I think he read it in NMMNG ) and the results have been really good.

More than anything else, it's helping him break out of the 'nice guy' mold.

The classic response to "I want..." is of course "I want don't get". As used by generations of parents the world over. Whats the response to "I want don't get" in this situation?

In our house? Tickle-fight.

Chimpy

steu2817 said:

Chimpy said:

Serenity said:

@steu2817 is absolutely right. 'I want' statements are golden.  Preface everything you say with a simple 'I want'. My husband has been doing this for the last couple weeks (I think he read it in NMMNG ) and the results have been really good.

More than anything else, it's helping him break out of the 'nice guy' mold.

The classic response to "I want..." is of course "I want don't get". As used by generations of parents the world over. Whats the response to "I want don't get" in this situation?

Outcome independence. 

At what point then do your "I wants" stop being part of the MAP and just become background noise? What she then tunes out, like the traffic.

Chimpy

@steu2817, "I want don't get" is through society like the letter in a stick of rock. Children of both sexes have it dinned in to them from the time they understand speech. Expressing your want's is like taking a dump on the kitchen table. Its just socially un acceptable. Its held not to be the mark of a "man" or a "woman" but the mark of a moron or someone what has no fucking manners. In England saying "I want" will put peoples backs up roughly the same amount as saying "fuck off".

Chimpy

steu2817 said:

Chimpy said:

@steu2817, "I want don't get" is through society like the letter in a stick of rock. Children of both sexes have it dinned in to them from the time they understand speech. Expressing your want's is like taking a dump on the kitchen table. Its just socially un acceptable. Its held not to be the mark of a "man" or a "woman" but the mark of a moron or someone what has no fucking manners. In England saying "I want" will put peoples backs up roughly the same amount as saying "fuck off".

REALLY???? Wow, we have no such thing here in the U.S.

So how do people ever know what you want? 

When you walk up the counter of McDonalds, they don't ask you what you want?

Walk into a bar and say Oi I want a pint and you get ignored. Wait till someone asks what they can get you and it comes by return.

Serenity

@Chimpy ; OT but this is really interesting to me. CS Lewis (a British author) used that saying in one of his books:  'Those as wants don't get.'

I didn't understand at the time that this was a standard British expression. Common language divides us.

Chimpy said:

The classic response to "I want..." is of course "I want don't get". As used by generations of parents the world over. Whats the response to "I want don't get" in this situation?

sconzey

@Chimpy: It's a little disingenuous of you to make that argument. The difference is simply a turn-of-phrase. We Brits say all sorts of things which do actually mean 'I want' although we don't use those words. In a pub or restaurant we say: "I'll have" or even just "A pint of bitter for me please". The tone and expectation and frame is exactly the same as "I want" however.

Here's a handy guide: 

Chimpy

sconzey said:

@Chimpy: It's a little disingenuous of you to make that argument. The difference is simply a turn-of-phrase. We Brits say all sorts of things which do actually mean 'I want' although we don't use those words. In a pub or restaurant we say: "I'll have" or even just "A pint of bitter for me please". The tone and expectation and frame is exactly the same as "I want" however.

H

I don't buy that last bit. Or rather, if you do it with that tone expectation and frame to anyone what ain't a paid serf, the answer will be some variation on "you can want, then".

"I want/I'll have/Give me a sandwich" any where other than a sandwich shop will get something like"Well you know where the bread is".

)

Chimpy

Serenity said:

@Chimpy ; OT but this is really interesting to me. CS Lewis (a British author) used that saying in one of his books:  'Those as wants don't get.'

I didn't understand at the time that this was a standard British expression. Common language divides us.

Chimpy said:

The classic response to "I want..." is of course "I want don't get". As used by generations of parents the world over. Whats the response to "I want don't get" in this situation?

Yeah. I think its the idea that if you actually NEED something someone will get it for you. If you state you want or demand it thats rude. Your showing the other person as a bad host/whatever, and yourself as impatient/demanding/rude. Plus the fact that "wants" are things you can manage without and in a society what reckons "getting by" is as much as you should ever feel is your due, wants are a turd in the soup bowl. 

sconzey

Chimpy said:

"I want/I'll have/Give me a sandwich" any where other than a sandwich shop will get something like"Well you know where the bread is".

)

Perhaps living in London has ruined my manners

Kinda the point I'm making is that what is key is not the words: 'I want', but the frame and expectation that you are a man who expects to get what he wants.

Chimpy

RedPillNewb said:

It seems that hanging on in quiet desperation is indeed the English way.   Thank heavens my family got out of there almost 400 years ago.

It takes a certain level of toughness to stick it out...

Scarlet

This thread makes me think I should have been born in the UK.  

KatherineKelly

 @gus I become extremely stubborn when I know someone is trying to dominate me and like a mule I will digg in my feet and pull back on the rope trying to pull me or kick the person trying to push me.

As a concept I'm repulsed by the idea of dominance but I'm attracted to strength.

Dominance to me implies weakness much like how a bully acts. In my opinion it is not your actions that your wife had a problem with but the implications of your words.

True strength is not something someone is aware of having because they take it for granted but the conscious projection of strength as dominance has a falseness about it that you can feel in your bones everytime.

Once you put into words what you were doing it immediately went from strength to weakness as an act done "in" weakness and not as substance done "from" strength.

This is the paradox of dominance where those who are dominant as "strength" do not know that they are because it is natural to them and you see this everywhere in the animal kingdom and beyond.

In general men make a mistake with how they use words in relationship to women so you communicate the opposite of what you intended.

When men talk to me I'm always looking beyond their words to what the words really mean as "their emotional state" that I feel inside me.

Once you told your wife what you are doing you involved her self worth as a woman so now she is fighting against you to protect her opinion of herself.

Being dominated must always be the womans choice. You cannot make this choice for her by telling her that you are going to or that you are. It attacks her self worth and self esteem.

A woman will only be dominated by a man she feels is worthy of her and when you make your intentions known you drop in value as being worthy of this priviledge.

Men do not dominate women, women submit to men. Big difference between the two.

FlyingDutchman

@KatherineKelly

Great post!  The idea of male dominance as it relates to female attraction can be very easily misunderstood.  My wife hates the concept of dominance and yet she responds very obviously to masculine strength and confidence.  The difference is feeling forced rather than inspired.  A healthy Alpha leader inspires people to follow him, never coerces or forces them.

I've crossed this line as I experimented with upping the Alpha with my wife.  She does not want to be forced into anything and if she detects the slightest hint of coercion, she will slam the brakes down hard and dig her heals in and display some stubbornness that could land her picture in the encyclopedia next to the word.

Justcal

Thanks for this post, I was making this mistake just this morning, and it was just what I needed to straighten me out.

gus

There are so many great comments in this thread that I don't know where to start. @KatherineKelly, that was immensely insightful and seems to describe how my girlfriend feels to a T. 

The hard part in remedying this is giving her more self-worth while being more alpha... but without pushing her value up too high and thus putting her on her ol' princess pedestal.

As a general update, she's been disarmed after some beta comfort since last night, but this alone is unsustainable. The lesson: don't qualify or explain yourself, ESPECIALLY when it comes to red pill stuff. Ever. Never ever. There is no point, and you can never contend with the irrational hamster.

Side note: there's some good points on the differences between English and American game, and I seriously think certain differences have been the cause of other stumbling points for me. A current one which relates to this thread is saying 'please', where I've been making her say please out of respect and to get her to jump through a small hoop before I do something. But then, I wasn't saying please, so she saw it as a double standard - people on this forum joke that they would go ahead with a double standard, and yeah it looks alpha on paper, but this is very British and it's expected in her family. I think I'll start another thread on this point.

I tried the "I want/I would like" and it's been much better than simply making statements (albeit reasonable and measured, in my opinion). But we still ran into the 'please' issue mentioned above.

picard

gus said:

A current one which relates to this thread is saying 'please', where I've been making her say please out of respect and to get her to jump through a small hoop before I do something. But then, I wasn't saying please, so she saw it as a double standard 

To me, politeness isn't an acceptable double standard. I'm polite to my FO and my children and they are polite back to me. We say please, we don't interrupt people when talking etc... - these rules apply to me as well as everyone else.

It's up to you what is acceptable in your house and if there is push back from the crew, then consider your position and make the appropriate decision as you see it - please. ;-)