How do we reconcile between MMSL and the dichotomy of things that agree and disagree with the bible?

Slipangle

I've been trying to look to scripture for guidance in all of what I've been doing. Ultimately, I think I feel that my wife was meant to be the mother of our children but was not to be my wife. Her mom divorced when she was 4 and she grew up without a dad.

I read so much about wifes should submit to husbands, and that's all in line with MMSL. But there's a divergence because the bible seems to generally not talk about husbands taking a leadership role, and there's so much talk of forgiveness... And with MMSL, we provide consequences for bad behavior.

Is there anything in scripture that makes it okay to encourage good behavior by allowing consequences for bad behavior? Cuz my understanding (albeit loose) is contrary... The bible tells us to forgive bad behavior, and in an MMSL context I understand that as enabling.

_io

The Bible is all about men having the leadership role.  Adam was created first, Eve was created to be his helpmeet.  The Old Testament is all about the Patriarchy.  Ephesians 5 talks about the husband being the head of the wife like Christ is the head of the church.  What I find interesting is that it says husband should love their wives but that wives should respect their husbands.  Very red pill.

Jesus said the only grounds for divorce is adultery.  Ideally, if both spouses are following biblical principles, everything else should be workable.  As we all know, things are not ideal.  There are other grounds for separation however.  I think Paul outlined them somewhere.

Mona

Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
Luke 17:3

Before the forgiveness comes the rebuke. Forgiveness comes after acknowledgment of and repentance from sin.  A person must ask for forgiveness in order to receive it.  They must humble themselves and admit they're wrong. 

The concept of love and forgiveness has been taken out of context in the modern church.  They forget that sometimes love is tough love.  This over focus on love and forgiveness to the exclusion of all other facets of God is part of the blue pill world for us Christians.  Which is not to say that those things are not important, because they very much are;  but that other Godly facets are just as important to emulate and without them, the love and forgiveness is empty and devoid of meaning. 

When Jonah disobeyed God, all manner of ill happened until he came back, repented, and did God's will.  When David repented for his sin of adultery and murder, God forgave him, but not without punishing him.   The bible is full of rebuke and consequence alongside the forgiveness freely granted.
 
Think of forgiveness as no gunnysacking.  You have apologized, any consequences have already occured. It is done with, and in the past.  It can't be brought up again and held against you later.  But first come the consequences and rebuke. 

Natalie_Lorin

"He who does not work should not eat."

The Bible is full of consequences for bad behavior. Consequences and forgiveness aren't two contradictory things. If you have kids I presume you have consequences for them sassing you, but I also presume you are ready to forgive said sassing once your kids express contrition.

Slipangle

@Mona Thank you, that was exactly the answer I was looking for!

Mona

Glad I could help.  Forgiveness without penalty is Mercy, which is another facet of God that we should emulate.  But it also requires that the person receiving mercy is aware that they deserve the consequence which is being mercifully withheld. 

You can't go and say to them "Now I should do consequence x, but I'm going to be merciful instead".  They must come to you, humble and contrite, and willing to accept consequence.  And then you, out of mercy, withhold or mitigate the consequences to the best of your ability.  And they should feel grateful for this mercy, not entitled to it. 

sconzey

@Slipangle, @Mona has got it right. The way I think about it is like this: if you kill someone, you've actually committed two crimes: murder is both a sin against God, and a crime against society. God can forgive the sin, but that can't and shouldn't wash out the secular consequences of your actions, including a secular punishment. 

This essay from blogger Dalrock is excellent.

Slipangle

Yeah... I was thinking of responding again saying how right @Mona was, but it seemed like overkill. And that blog post captures my sentiments well. I was going to make a rambling post on the point, but the crux of what I wanted to say is I find it ironic that I am finding Christ on an atheist's web site.

Captaindude

Too many people assume and take shortcuts about what the bible says without actually reading it. Jesus called people hypocrites, ravening wolves, vipers, fools, made a whip to drive them out of the temple, etc. In Acts 3, Ananias dies for lying about his giving. In the Old Testament, God destroyed the earth in the flood, destroyed cities, killed someone for touching the ark, and death is a punishment for several commandments, like adultery and sabbath breaking. People die quite regularly for breaking Gods commandments.

God in the bible had plenty of consequences.

never_surrender

_io said:

 Ideally, if both spouses are following biblical principles, everything else should be workable.

 and if one spouse does not follow we can not make them follow or respect us.   So much is true about the red pill but the church does want to touch on it.   

never_surrender

Natalie_Lorin said:

"He who does not work should not eat."

The Bible is full of consequences for bad behavior. Consequences and forgiveness aren't two contradictory things. If you have kids I presume you have consequences for them sassing you, but I also presume you are ready to forgive said sassing once your kids express contrition.

The Bible is clear to spank a child who continues to disobey.  This then relieves the guilt/sin that is in side them.  But it is not done in anger.   Similar to adults who are doing something wrong and once they are caught, they feel better but yet have the consequence to deal with.  Check this post out.  ~ 

European_Bob said:

I've noticed some interesting stuff at work since reading the primer & coming on the forum here - for a long time I've been a bit frustrated at the slow place in the company where I work, and from the stuff I've learned here I think I have put my finger on it - my boss is nowhere near Alpha enough.

For background I work in a very small company (5 employees, 3 of whom are part time), I'm #3 in the hierarchy.

The boss is a really nice guy, and is happy to let me have pretty much anything I want (choose my own company car, take my dog to the office, never checks how much holiday / vacation time i take etc). He is like this with everyone, and has in the past refused to fire people who are unreliable, lazy, and cause the productivity to go down simply by being there. I hate it though that he never tells me off if I do something bad or overstep the line. I wish he would be more decisive and assertive, and not whinge when our clients / suppliers mess us around.

Prez

Eli was the high priest.  His sons were ripping people off and sleeping with women in the tabernacle, and Eli told them they shouldn't do it.  But God held him responsible.  He could have removed them from the priesthood--consequences. 

Nehemiah saw people disobeying the command of the Lord and he beat some of the men and pulled out their hair.  Of course, beating was a legal consequence back then.  It was a consequence.

Elders of the church are to be examples of the church.  They are to lead their houses well.  The idea that love and leadership means letting people get away with doing what isn't right without putting up much resistance (like Eli) is flawed.

What about Jesus?  If His bride misbehaves, what does He say and do?  Read Revelation 2?  The church is the bride of Christ, and churches got rebuked for threatening false teachers.  The Lord Jesus threatened the sword (of His mouth) against the Nicolaitans.

He also had something to say about the followers of that woman Jezebel.

²⁰ Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. ²¹ And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent.^f]">[22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. ²³ I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.
(NKJV)
 

I see some consequences here.  The relationship of man and his wife is to depict the relationship between Christ and His church.  Christ died for the church.  That's the predominant perspective we should hold.  Be we should also be aware that He made a whip and drove out the money changers and the animals, a consequence we might say, of selling where they should not.