Shit hit the fan, did I reset the MAP or am I OK?

LateralThinking

My intro/triage  for those who have not read it: http://marriedmansexlife.vanillaforums.com/discussion/6249/feels-like-pandora-s-box-triage-and-intro#latest

I believe I was comfortably in P3. 

Yesterday wife comes home after work, I beat her home based on schedule. She walks in, says "where is my kiss?" I say "right here" we hug, I go for a kiss she drops her face and presents the top of her head. Looking for a companion kiss. I don't provide one. Still hugging she says "where my kiss?" I say "Up here come and get it" she does but no 10second version, just a peck. then "OK now give me my KISS." I say "no, you can have that later when we are just cuddling" and I stroll out coolly. Shit I read about frame all day yesterday I got this.

She changes into pajamas, signalling the day is over, and I sit down on the end of the bed to try and make small talk and present that the kiss situation was no big deal by not cold shouldering her.

She asks if we need to have a "talk". I know that shes hinting at, but I'm not prepared to have the big talk, I haven't done enough research to know how I want this talk to go or what all my talking points are. But I take the bait. Tell her we can talk.     

First question from her: "Are you not happy in our relationship?" Me: "No I'm not" She starts crying hardcore, which continued basically the rest of the night, sold for 3 hours while we talked then after we agreed to give talking a break, she cried basically all night, pretty sure she didn't sleep. 

I stayed very reserved and tried to stick to causes that were making me unhappy without Victim Puking or letting either one of us DEER too much, When she cussed at me I told her that the convo was over if she couldn't be an adult. But I took a lot of responsibility for things. Not for her physical and mental state or the sex, which did come up but I was careful to identify sex or lack of sex as a symptom, not a cause of unhappiness. That the lack of it was a trigger thatt pointed to a root cause (her self esteem issues). I owned my emotional unavailability, and allowing things to get bad.

TLDR Pushing through to the crux, Where I think I screwed it up. She asked how much time she /we had to work on things, I said some not forever. and she went nuts. Called me on being willing to break our marriage vows and not being invested in us, not being the man she married or even knew. It went from me in control to me getting called out for trying to blow up the marriage. Asked how on any planet I imagined that telling her she was fat, not physically involved unavailable, moody, and being willing to get a divorce could bring about the change i was looking for. That I had damaged our marriage that was so perfect, That I was the traitor. And she was devastated and full of fear and uncertainty. And she doesn't respond to fear. Additionally she told me working on myself and not on "us" is not going to work. I didn't give on that one. But I sure didn't convert her. 

I didn't apologize for the divorce being on the table, I brought up 3 different instances where she has hinted at divorce before and said she was just as guilty as I, and I want the marriage to work out, that for me Divorce is the last option, And I didn't want her to focus on that, and miss how critical the other things were but that there was a definite timetable to see improvement. 

We made a start of a list of things to work on. It needs a lot of fleshing out. and dates etc. So maybe her actions mean more than her words???

We've texted some "how are you this morning" stuff so far today. but that's all. 

Did I let the convo go too far and phase back to 1/2? Or am I OK? And what do I do know?

*(Edited to finish a couple of messed up sentences where my brain got ahead of my fingers)

PhoenixDown

I think you're ok... You pushed a little early and maybe too hard, IMO, but it sounds like she's on board with her actions. Post your timeline here if you want and we'll critique it.

The hysterics are to be expected. Her blue pill fantasy just blew up. Maintain your frame.

JohnGrey

You did great! She needs to know that you aren't going to put up with the direction the marriage is heading anymore, and that you're taking steps right now to change that. The threat of divorce is a very crucial part of the MAP. She needs to understand that there are consequences involved and you're ready to face them, if necessary. Don't engage with her hamster. The complaints about her emotional distance, body image and lack of emotional/sexual involvement are true. Just as true as your issues about yourself that you brought up. You're shattering her little image of her "marriage that was so perfect". 

You need to present to her a timeline and course of action. Some of the "new rules" for the marriage - dictated by you, not discussed endlessly with her.

Good luck and great job!

LateralThinking

JohnGrey said:

You did great! She needs to know that you aren't going to put up with the direction the marriage is heading anymore, and that you're taking steps right now to change that. The threat of divorce is a very crucial part of the MAP. She needs to understand that there are consequences involved and you're ready to face them, if necessary. Don't engage with her hamster. The complaints about her emotional distance, body image and lack of emotional/sexual involvement are true. Just as true as your issues about yourself that you brought up. You're shattering her little image of her "marriage that was so perfect". 

You need to present to her a timeline and course of action. Some of the "new rules" for the marriage - dictated by you, not discussed endlessly with her.

Good luck and great job!

She actually said that exactly @JohnGrey: "I always thought we had the marriage that none of our friends had, everything was perfect, now I see you are just like all the men my friends are married to".

Those emotional attacks are the tough ones because they land, holding frame and staying tough, I don't know that i was of Captain-ish as I should be. And it happened before I had time to layout a timeline, for change so now I have to do that fast while the dread is in play.  

   

TheatreMommy

Phase 1 and 2 have nothing to do with that kind of a blow up. You'll still be phase 3 if your SR is higher than her. I think you managed that situation fairly well. I know how awkward that can be.

LateralThinking

Thanks @TheatreMommy! @Cromap & @BMMNorth What does that "revisionist history" mean? And how do I counter? So far my defense has been "I didnt know I felt this way either, I'm not going to apologize for being unhappy and dissatisfied in the state of our marriage, Do you want to work on it with me?"  

TheatreMommy

That's been a good answer, then.

Revisionist History is going back into the past and telling the history in a more favourable way. This could be the addition of previously omitited details, addition of different perspectives, omitting some details, and working for an end theme. It comes from the concept that no truth is absolute that we as humans can know because we do not see everything.

In this context, it likely means that excuses and motivations that didn't exist at the time are being ascribed to past actions in the hopes of making one feel better about the way things happened. One could argue that man/humankind acts first and then ascribes meaning to the actions second... But when a person says, well, that only happened because x, y, z and x and y weren't on the radar yet and z makes no sense... such tactics can be used by the hamster or himster to make a person not feel like a jerk... I only cheated because he neglected me, because he didn't sing me lullabies, because he used words that ended in ing... they don't have to be logically connected.

Revisionist history can be a good thing if you're trying to look back on your marriage and incorporate others' perspectives to make sense of things. For example, if the FIL said something a few years ago and wife didn't defend you... there may be perspectives and information that could be added to the narrative to explain his action, her reaction, or to mitigate anger.

Revisionist history is good when it leads people to a broader understanding of the truth, and it is bad when it is used to obfuscate, intimidate, marginalize, bully or lie.

 

JohnGrey

To expand on @TheatreMommy explanation: people need a good reason to do bad things. Cheating spouses will say: "I only cheated because my husband won't have sex with me as often as I want". Hamsters like to justify the bad behavior. It looks like your wife is going to revise the history of your marriage as you the jerk and her the harmless victim. At least that's what we're picking up....

It's important that you don't start arguing with her revisionist history hamster. Even if what she's saying is completely BSC, and you can think of a dozen examples why she's wrong, it's a waste of time and way to get you off course.

Jetguy

I'm still very new here and will let other speak in regard to advise. I must say though i admire your courage and approach. Maybe you weren't as prepared as you might have liked but i think you still held your frame without being cutting or hurtful, just truthful. I am going to be in your position shortly myself as i am preparing for the "talk" that i am going to have with my wife and i'm hoping i can keep frame as well as you have been. Please keep us posted on how thing progress.

DaveBowman

I think you handled it OK.

I don't think you're in Phase 3 though. In the latter parts of 2 I got a massive shit test very similar to this. A few weeks later (next ovulation actually) we hit Phase 3 and pretty much stayed there.

Lotsa loyalty testing here though. Pass those, or she'll just give up on ya. Phases 4 and 5 comes after Phase 3.

Notelrac

1.  No more waterworks.
If she's sobbing, take a time out until she's able to have a rational conversation.

2.  No more 3 hour marathons. 
Take a break after 60 minutes, if not 30.  Both of you need to spend at least that amount of time doing something physical.  No electronics.

3.  Call a halt after she attacks you.

Good luck with your future conversations.

Matt266

DaveBowman said:

I think you handled it OK.

I don't think you're in Phase 3 though. In the latter parts of 2 I got a massive shit test very similar to this. A few weeks later (next ovulation actually) we hit Phase 3 and pretty much stayed there.

Lotsa loyalty testing here though. Pass those, or she'll just give up on ya. Phases 4 and 5 comes after Phase 3.

Dave,

Can you point out the ones you see and (more importantly) correct responses?  It would be very helpful.

Thanks!

Changed_Man

From my perspective, it was a mixed bag.

I agree with @DaveBowman that it's way too early for you to be in phase 3. Doesn't matter if you're in phase 3 physically or structurally, or if her hypergamy is responding (which it is), the hamster hasn't caught up yet.

The kiss fiasco was a shit test, which you passed... and then you had a massive fail by engaging with the hamster and skipping straight to phase 5. Now that you're in phase 5, you're stuck there... if you try to back track, you will go back to phase 1 and be there for a looooong time.

Also agree that there was a bunch of loyalty testing going on and a judicious amount of beta reassurance, showing commitment to the marriage, can smooth over the premature jump. You got your work cut out for you.

DaveBowman

Loyalty test:

First question from her: "Are you not happy in our relationship?" Me: "No I'm not" She starts crying hardcore, which continued basically the rest of the night, sold for 3 hours while we talked then after we agreed to give talking a break, she cried basically all night, pretty sure she didn't sleep.

Good response. Better response would be "No, I'm not. I'm happy with A, B, and C but I want more X, Y, and Z. At least ___ much more."

Loyalty test:

She asked how much time she /we had to work on things, I said some not forever.

Too vague. Captains aren't vague. "I'm willing to work on this a year. No improvement after a year, and we'll be having a tough conversation about our future and I'll be making some hard decisions."

and she went nuts. Called me on being willing to break our marriage vows and not being invested in us, not being the man she married or even knew.

My wife did/does this sometimes. It's funny because she sees her personal growth as empowering and demands my support, but my personal growth is often frightening and confusing.

My response was "I have desires. I'm not going to feel bad for having them. I'm not going to pretend I don't have them to make you feel better about not helping to fulfill them. That's your problem, not mine. I'm finally bringing my A game back and taking what I want from life. What you have to figure out is how you're going to respond to that." (full thread here: http://marriedmansexlife.vanillaforums.com/discussion/4827/victory-temporarily-knocked-the-hamster-off-the-wheel/p1)

It went from me in control to me getting called out for trying to blow up the marriage. Asked how on any planet I imagined that telling her she was fat,

Don't do that unless she's totally fat. Encourage her to get better. If you told her she was fat, for many women this would be a critical moment of neglect.

not physically involved unavailable, moody,

Is this true? If so, don't do that. It's not being the Captain. If not, ignore it, it's hamster talk.

and being willing to get a divorce could bring about the change i was looking for.

Sometimes it's the only way you will get the change you're looking for. But it's bringing a nuke, exhaust all other options first.

That I had damaged our marriage that was so perfect,

1st response: "Oh, I'm gonna make it perfect baby..."
2nd response: "Nothing's more perfect than having you over and over again..."
3rd response: "If it was so perfect, I wouldn't need it to change. Maybe it's perfect for you because you're getting everything you want. It's time for me to get what I want."

That I was the traitor. And she was devastated and full of fear and uncertainty.

Same as above, two cocky/funny responses, in an attempt to defuse. She's still serious? "I'm devastated because I'm not in the kind of marriage with you that I want or that we're capable of, and I'm full of fear and uncertainty about staying in it and watching it decay, and neither of us get to live the life of our dreams. You won't, because you'll be stuck with someone unhappy. I won't, because I won't get a sexually fulfilling life with you."

And she doesn't respond to fear.

Ignore this, 100% bullshit. If she didn't respond to fear you wouldn't be having this conversation.

Additionally she told me working on myself and not on "us" is not going to work. I didn't give on that one. But I sure didn't convert her.

You don't need to convert her. If you push her buttons on an instinctive level, she won't be able to control her attraction for you. If you keep it up, learn to reframe and keep the alpha in a beta way, her hamster will quiet.

Matt266

@davebowman, just wish I could give you "awesome" and "insightful" for the above post.  Thank you, this will help me be prepared for this eventual talk from the Mrs.

LateralThinking

DaveBowman said:

Loyalty test:

First question from her: "Are you not happy in our relationship?" Me: "No I'm not" She starts crying hardcore, which continued basically the rest of the night, sold for 3 hours while we talked then after we agreed to give talking a break, she cried basically all night, pretty sure she didn't sleep.

Good response. Better response would be "No, I'm not. I'm happy with A, B, and C but I want more X, Y, and Z. At least ___ much more."

After performing 2 days of bomb damage assessment, I suspect that a more balanced approach would have been less traumatic, Then again, I suspect trauma this big is all that was going to get movement.

Loyalty test:

She asked how much time she /we had to work on things, I said some not forever.

Too vague. Captains aren't vague. "I'm willing to work on this a year. No improvement after a year, and we'll be having a tough conversation about our future and I'll be making some hard decisions."

Yep, My brain was yelling "you have a week" per the Primer, But seemed like a week was a little short to lose 80 lbs! I bitched out here. However pretty good recovery yesterday when I presented the first 15 days of the timeline.

and she went nuts. Called me on being willing to break our marriage vows and not being invested in us, not being the man she married or even knew.

My wife did/does this sometimes. It's funny because she sees her personal growth as empowering and demands my support, but my personal growth is often frightening and confusing. 

I got rocked by the vow breaking thing, that was unexpected, But short of saying "you not putting out is no different than cheating" Followed by victim puking for 20 minutes, I didn't have anything. @Notelrac 's comment about cutting the conversation off sooner might have saved me.

My response was "I have desires. I'm not going to feel bad for having them. I'm not going to pretend I don't have them to make you feel better about not helping to fulfill them. That's your problem, not mine. I'm finally bringing my A game back and taking what I want from life. What you have to figure out is how you're going to respond to that." (full thread here: http://marriedmansexlife.vanillaforums.com/discussion/4827/victory-temporarily-knocked-the-hamster-off-the-wheel/p1)

It went from me in control to me getting called out for trying to blow up the marriage. Asked how on any planet I imagined that telling her she was fat, not physically involved, unavailable, moody.

Don't do that unless she's totally fat. Encourage her to get better. If you told her she was fat, for many women this would be a critical moment of neglect.

A. shes totally fat. B. I should clarify I didn't say she was fat, I said her self esteem issues had killed our sex life, leading me to emotionally withdraw, (my fault not hers, get into porn and desensitize. disengage from the relationship). I was seeing that now and no longer satisfied, I'm fixing my issues time for her to fix hers. She said "All my self esteem comes from my weight, So you are calling me fat."

Is this true? If so, don't do that. It's not being the Captain. If not, ignore it, it's hamster talk.

and being willing to get a divorce could bring about the change i was looking for.

Sometimes it's the only way you will get the change you're looking for. But it's bringing a nuke, exhaust all other options first.

That I had damaged our marriage that was so perfect,

1st response: "Oh, I'm gonna make it perfect baby..."
2nd response: "Nothing's more perfect than having you over and over again..."
3rd response: "If it was so perfect, I wouldn't need it to change. Maybe it's perfect for you because you're getting everything you want. It's time for me to get what I want." I went with a watered down version of 3.

That I was the traitor. And she was devastated and full of fear and uncertainty.

Same as above, two cocky/funny responses, in an attempt to defuse. She's still serious? "I'm devastated because I'm not in the kind of marriage with you that I want or that we're capable of, and I'm full of fear and uncertainty about staying in it and watching it decay, and neither of us get to live the life of our dreams. You won't, because you'll be stuck with someone unhappy. I won't, because I won't get a sexually fulfilling life with you."

And she doesn't respond to fear.

Ignore this, 100% bullshit. If she didn't respond to fear you wouldn't be having this conversation.

Additionally she told me working on myself and not on "us" is not going to work. I didn't give on that one. But I sure didn't convert her.

You don't need to convert her. If you push her buttons on an instinctive level, she won't be able to control her attraction for you. If you keep it up, learn to reframe and keep the alpha in a beta way, her hamster will quiet.

Yeah, that's what I did wrong all across the board, I went asshole Alpha and left all the Beta out when in reality she didn't have a clue this was coming. At least not on a capsize the boat level. 

I've been hitting loyalty tests out of the park since, applying beta to reaffirm in areas that are good. But holding to my Alpha areas. I cant say enough to everyone who is here being involved, 

DaveBowman

No no, you did good. Really good.

Learn and refine. Fall down and get back up.

You're doing great.