Self sufficiency vs God-dependency

European_Bob

As I've been progressing through the MAP one of the key points that I've found for men is to not let your wife's mood have an influence on your's. i.e. if she is complaining then stay aloof and happy. Another aspect is OI - if she doesn't want to have sex then I'm still fine, I can go off and do <manly thing> instead. Follow this train of thought through, it appears that one of the goals of the MAP is to become self-sufficient, not reliant on your wife or anything else for what you need and/or want in life.

That however seems to be in contradiction to the whole Christian perspective of being reliant or dependent on God. Personally I'm not sure I even understand 100% what it means to rely on God.

How do these seemingly 180 degree opposite positions work together?

I'd appreciate any feedback @pastorgeek and others

ddad

The god perspective is that trust that no matter how bad it is with people IRL someone(god) loves you.  Doesn't really change OI except when you  go off to do something manly your backup is that you are still loved.  That is my simplified perspective.

Athol_Kay

I'm not sure this answers your question. I just started writing and here it is.

 

/rant on

The MAP isn't about self-sufficiency in the sense of not needing people, it's about creating personal value that other people want to be associated with. If anything it's acutely aware of people needing other people and works to ensure you're in a state of attractiveness to be loved and wanted.

It is self-sufficient in the sense that it is aware that no one is going to just gift you with a happy life and relationship, so you have to create those conditions for yourself.

Because MMSL focuses on what you can actually do for yourself under your own steam, it is in one sense in direct opposition to a faith-based approach to personal development.

Also when you consider that God isn't required to answer your prayers the way you want him to, you should also consider the need to be outcome independent on getting God's help if you're a Christian. I mean if he thinks you need to learn something through suffering, it might be several years or even decades before your situation is resolved the way you hope it will.

Prayer is more often than not a verbalized negative statement to the effect that you cannot do something. It's a negative energy statement that you are powerless to create the change you want. That without some outside force, you will fall, fail and falter.

Well I say bullshit.

You damn well can do this stuff. It just works. It works for the same reason powered flight does not require angels to lift a 747 off the ground. It works because God's assistance is not required.

When you stop waiting on God to provide and support you, and you just get into action and start making changes in your life. That's when changes start happening.

There is unquestionably a spiritual component to what I teach, that was left unstated in the Primer and stated clearly in the MAP book. Namely that your actions are your true statement of faith and that they influence the universe around you in positive or negative ways. I believe spirituality is seamlessly interwoven with the mundane tasks of everyday life. Trying to separate activities into "spiritual" and "non-spiritual" categories is misunderstanding the nature of the universe. I believe you create a greater sense of positive spirituality by building a deck, helping a friend, cleaning a room or working your job, than you ever will in prayer.

In fact more often than not, your prayers worsen your situation because they are negative in tone. Faithless prayers are a negative energy effect. You don't actually have faith things can be better when you complain to God about your life.

If you had faith God can help you life, you'd just walk out your front door and start living your life like you had God's help. You don't have to keep praying like you're feeding God's parking meter or your spirituality will expire.

God is not sending a limo to drive you to the gym. Some shit you have to handle yourself.

/rant off

 

Raspberry_rose

I'm not sure if what I have to say applies to Christianity, but I was always taught three things about this:
1. God helps those who help themselves.
2. If you want it, pray, put in the effort, and if God thinks it's a good idea, God will make it happen. But there needs to be at least some work on your end of things. God is someone with whom you're in a relationship, not a celestial ATM.
3. Don't rely on miracles.

As it says in a store somewhere, "In God we trust. All others pay cash."

liquid

Ultimately, I don't rely on my husband. I am never promised that he will never leave me nor forsake me. I know that he is fallible but God is not.

The Map idea, and now the new book, has been extremely helpful to me as a sensible way to organize my own responsibilities.

I need to deal with my own gluttony and sloth before I get too worried about him not loving me selflessly, which is really my definition of selflessly. Log vs. speck, right?

European_Bob

*thinking*...

pastorgeek

@European_Bob - You rang?

I have taken to avoiding conversations in this category for a number of reasons. Athol's rant above being a classic example of why it does not seem productive to discuss spiritual matters here, where non-spiritual people feel at liberty to make unhelpful comments about religion in general and in this case prayer and a relationship with the Lord.

I am not here to argue Athol, he's a big boy and can make his own decisions about life. I actually agree with Athol's stated objective and many of his means to get there, it's why I hang out on these forums, but obviously I arrive at this from a spiritual (and pragmatic) perspective.

I do not believe that it is wrong for a husband to learn to be self-sufficient. I do not need Mrs. Geek for almost anything I require. I want Mrs. Geek in my life. It is a choice, but not a requirement. I believe it is harmful for men to rely on their wives. Several years before I left home my mother told me that I needed to learn to "wash, cook, clean and iron". This was awesome advice and when I left home I could indeed take care of myself. I still can. I keep in practice by helping with an appropriate amount of household chores. Right now, that amount is quite high, but then my wife is (as I type) four days past her due date, so everything is hard and tiring for her right now. Under more normal circumstances, I do most of my own laundry. I have offered to do hers, but she doesn't trust my "guy laundry style" for her delicate clothes! :-)

There is a great phrase that I heard shortly after I came into the church (I am a recycled atheist) that sums up much of the issue for me. It is said that the Jews give the advice:

Pray hard, but row away from the rocks!

In my experience, the Lord gives us brains and abilities and expects us to use them. When we reach the end of our own abilities while undertaking actions for him, he will step in and assist. I am a type B personality. I enjoy my own company and find that being around people is often draining for me. I also do not like to be in the spotlight. So as a pastor, where my primary activities are working with people and preaching and teaching in front of a congregation, I run out of personal oomph periodically. At those times, the Lord strengthens me and sustains me and enables me to complete what I'm doing. Prayer and time reading the scriptures are very refreshing for me.

I laugh at the atheist stereotype of Christians as mind-numbed robots. Since entering the church, I have never done so much thinking and reading and studying. I have a degree in computer science and I think that theology is much more mental work than that. (Perhaps it's that I am an apostolic pentecostal ... I cannot speak for denominational believers.)

Back to your point, outcome independence regarding your wife is not bad. It's not that you are rejecting your wife, it's that you are working on becoming a complete man. And that's good.

Now, a complete man is not one who has to ignore God. I tell members of my congregation to think of themselves as ambassadors of the Lord. In the physical world, an ambassador has to be the best person they can be.They deal with and interact with others on behalf of the country the represent. The Christian represents the Lord and should remember that at all times. With this perspective, we are self-sufficient in daily operation, but led and guided and nurtured by the Lord over the longer term.

I'll stop there before I cause any more trouble. This is an interesting point and maybe I'll blog about it at some point. (Not too soon with a baby due anytime now.)

Underhill

My church distinguishes "belief" and "faith". 

Belief is the idea that God exists, loves you, etc. 

However, faith is a principle of action; sitting in bed wishing your life would change is not faith. 

So, when I hear believe and have faith, I hear, believe, and then get up and do something!

_io

You know what they say:  Faith without works is dead.

European_Bob

so to summarise / paraphrase could it all be compressed down into:

"MAP your arse off, as far as you can, and as much as you can (including driving your own limo to the gym), take care of everything that your able to by yourself, and then trust that God's got your back for the rest"

with the assumption that God knows even better than you do exactly how far you can get on your own

??

PS Congratulations @pastorgeek on the imminent baby

Athol_Kay

@pastorgeek ;   you should see some of the Christian hate mail I get.

Monkeys_Uncle

As a non-Christian living in an area where Protestant evangelistic culture is nearly ubiquitous, I have a great respect for my many devout Christian friends.  The churches are the glue that hold our community together.  They give of themselves nearly endlessly to wonderful causes.  Nobody goes hungry in this community and it has much more to do with the churches than the government.  They strive every day to be better than they were the day before.  They admit their shortcomings.  Much more often than not, when I have a disagreement with them on a fundamental issue, we can disagree amicably.    I often find myself outraged at the way my friends and family and their church culture are misrepresented in the media and in the popular culture. 

In short, I don't drink the Christ Kool-Aid, but I am a huge fan of the brand.

With that said, if there is one shortcoming I see in my churchgoing friends, it would be a propensity to "give it over to God" in situations where they would be better served taking care of it themselves.   Sometimes it's almost as if it is seen a test of one's faith to NOT take reasonable corrective action on an issue, but instead to let it ride and see if it resolves itself so that divine intervention can be claimed.   Other times I see my Christian friends actually do a lot of work to correct an issue, and then when asked about how they got out of a bad situation, rather than imparting the wisdom and details of their hard work on another who could use that knowledge, they whitewash it all as, "I just gave my problem over to God."   I've seen that happen and I always want to yell, "No you did not!   You worked your ass off and almost single handedly rebuilt that house that burned down!  You worked three jobs to get yourself out of a bad financial situation!   You went back to school and trained in a new career when your old skills weren't valuable in the marketplace anymore!"  

ddad

Athol_Kay said:

@pastorgeek ;   you should see some of the Christian hate mail I get.

I grew up Catholic, explored some other Christian churches and studied comparative religion in university (3 courses worth not a major or anything). 

Ironic how most(Vast majority) of what you say fits with most Christian philosophies.  It comes down to people with narrow minds and narrower interpretations of their scripture.  The belief that they must attack any who don't believe exactly word for word what they do is one thing that pushed me away from organized religion.  If their beliefs are so good they will stand on their own and attract people by their virtue not because they cut down others around them.

Athol_Kay

Monkeys_Uncle said:

As a non-Christian

Would you describe a Black person a non-White?

Would you describe a woman as a non-man?

Why aren't you a non-Muslim, or a non-Mormon, or non-Buddhist?

 

Just curious.

Natalie_Lorin

Phillipians 2:12-13

12Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

My understanding when it comes to works is not that we do 100% until we run out of steam and then God does 100% but rather that both God and us put in 100%. It's like if life is a huge boulder it's not that we push it until we get tired and God does the rest. It's more that God puts His hands over our hands and pushes that boulder with and through us.

I mean, we should trust that God has our backs, but the point is that He's got our backs even when we think we've got our own and are handling things pretty well. Well, yeah you're being faithful and putting your hand to the plow and all that. Hurrah for listening on Sunday But you're being faithful and working hard because of what God is doing in you. It might feel like you're bootstrapping your way up by yourself, but you really aren't.

Clear as mud?

pastorgeek

Athol_Kay said:

@pastorgeek ;   you should see some of the Christian hate mail I get.

Sorry to hear that. You'll get none from me. I admire the goal you seek, even if I seek it from the other side of the table.

When I previously blogged, I received quite a bit of pushback from the atheists. It seems to be more of a human thing than a religious or non-religious thing.

Serenity

Interestingly enough, the phrase, "Let go and let God" is not found in Scripture.

Some of my favorite scriptural instructions emphasize action

"Go and DO likewise."  Go  and do  are both action verbs.

Jesus asked, "Do you love me?"  then "Feed my sheep."  He didn't say 'sit around and pray all day about it.'  Go. Do. Feed. Lovely simple action words.

Jesus was a man of action. He healed, he fed, he resurrected, he comforted, he forgave.  All actions.

In fact, I'm trying to think of a situation where Jesus' help was requested and the *only* thing he did was pray. None spring to mind, but maybe some of you Bible scholars can weigh in.

Serenity

Kind of reminds me of that old joke:

A man finds himself in dire financial trouble. He prays earnestly to his God to help him out of his predicament. "God, I'm about to lose my car. Please help me. Let me win the lottery." Lottery night comes, but sadly, Dave is not the winner. Things go from bad to worse. Without a car to get to work, Dave loses his job. Without a job, his mortgage is foreclosed on, and he loses his home. Without a home, his wife leaves him, taking the kids. After each horrible step in the mounting crisis, he pleads with God to let him win the lottery, but he never does. Finally, broke, hungry, living on the street, he tries again. "God, please, my life is a wreck. I have no car, no home, no family. Please let me win the lottery just this once so that I can turn my life around. I beseech you." Suddenly, a flash of light rends the sky, and the voice of God echoes down from the heavens. "Dave, meet me halfway. Buy a ticket."

Monkeys_Uncle

@Athol_Kay, 

" Why aren't you a non-Muslim, or a non-Mormon, or non-Buddhist?   Just curious."

Probably jut out of habit... I live in an area where if you are a middle class white guy without a meth addiction, everyone just assumes you are a) definitely Christian and b) most likely Southern Baptist.    Asking somebody what church they go to here is in the same category as asking what they do for a living, and the answer "I don't go to church, and I'm not looking for a church to join." is often met with the same reaction as if you'd said, "I have no job or occupation, and I'm not interested in one." 

Akatsukami

Natalie_Lorin said:

My understanding when it comes to works is not that we do 100% until we run out of steam and then God does 100% but rather that both God and us put in 100%. It's like if life is a huge boulder it's not that we push it until we get tired and God does the rest. It's more that God puts His hands over our hands and pushes that boulder with and through us.

"He [R. Tarfon] used to say, 'It is not upon you to complete the task, but you are not free to idle from it'".  Pirke Avot 2:21.

Captaindude

Faith is a principle of action.  

It's like climbing a mountain covered in clouds to get to the top you can't yet see, like taking one more step beyond the edge of the darkness at night.  You move forward because you're convinced your actions will result in a positive outcome.   God can help you with the courage to keep climbing, to keep walking, even though you can't yet see the full future outcome.   He'll give you the confidence that you're on the right path, but often only after you're already walking up the path.

James 2:17-18

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Also--Hebrews chapter 11 (a list of actions various people took when motivated by faith.)

John 14:12

 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

John 7:17

 17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

God is more like your personal trainer at the gym than your limo driver.  Your trainer won't do you any favors by lifting your weights for you.  He can show you your weak areas, tell you what to do to improve, and motivate you--even hold you accountable.  But lifting the bar for you would be counterproductive.

Like your coach or trainer, God wants to see us develop His capacity.  We cannot grow to become like Him unless he allows us to struggle, to learn, and to do for ourselves.  

Prayer is like a personal accountability interview with our personal trainer--to thank Him for His help and guidance, to share what we've done so far, and to ask for confirmation that we're still doing the right thing--then listen for any guidance to tweak our direction.

From the Book of Mormon:

Ether 12:27

27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.

Alma 7:24

24 And see that ye have faith, hope, and charity, and then ye will always abound in good works.

We only know if God's teachings are true if we actually do something to follow them.  This action demonstrates and builds our faith.

Alma 32:27

27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.

Jesus life and teachings were all about doing things to grow personally and to help people.  I can't find a single reference of Him suggesting people sit around and wait for God to take care of everything.