Self sufficiency vs God-dependency

24

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  • TheatreMommyTheatreMommy CanadaSilver Member Posts: 959

    @Serenity! You beat me to the joke. I toally was thinking that one.

    WHen things were the worst and I felt alone and I felt that I carried the entire world on my shoulders, I would pray. And I would give it over to God. I would let him carry the heavy stuff. Or, I'd keep the heavy stuff, as long as I could lean on himn as I walked. I don't know if he was there or not, but believing he was allowed me to keep wakig up and taking the next step.

    I have battled depression my whole life, and I find faith in God an essential part of OI (for me).  I can be outcome independent when I believe that there is someone out there who is supporting me as long as I work my hardest to make good choices and to follow the rule book. When I feel alone, and that those from whom I need OI are all I have in the world, OI is much much harder.

    So, wrt the OP, OI can be seen as putting the outcome in God's hands, if it is easier for a Christian to frame it that way.  God is letting you know that you have something else more important to do. If it means not having sex at that moment, maybe it is a way to get you to do that thing he needs/wants you to do..

  • JellyBeanJellyBean Sunny SoCalGold Women Posts: 5,054
    edited August 2013
    @Athol_Kay
    " Why aren't you a non-Muslim, or a non-Mormon, or non-Buddhist?   Just curious."

    Probably jut out of habit... I live in an area where if you are a middle class white guy without a meth addiction, everyone just assumes you are a) definitely Christian and b) most likely Southern Baptist.    Asking somebody what church they go to here is in the same category as asking what they do for a living, and the answer "I don't go to church, and I'm not looking for a church to join." is often met with the same reaction as if you'd said, "I have no job or occupation, and I'm not interested in one." 
    Isn't it strange?  There is no word to identify me as a non-alchemist or a non-astrologist, but there is a word to define me as one who does not believe in other superstitious myths.
    Enneagram type 9w1
  • European_BobEuropean_Bob EuropeSilver Member Posts: 139
    I think it's totally normal to use the phrase non-christian or non-muslim etc. We often use negatives to define ourselves. e.g.

    - If a teetotaller is offer a beer it wouldn't be out of place to reply with "I don't drink".
    - When you are in the supermarket and someone asks you where the milk is, it's normal to say "I'm not an employee / I don't work here"
    - If someone asks you why they still speak french in quebec you would probably answer "I don't know, I'm not canadian"

    It all depends on the context of the question / discussion / perceived "normality".

    English doesn't appear to have individual words for "non christian" "non employee" or "non canadian" what's the big deal?

    WRT @Athol_Kay 's original answer to my first post here, I would agree - only praying to ask for stuff the whole time is not good. That’s why there should also be thanking among other things.

    I believe though that it is good to ask for things - e.g. Pastorgeek's wife was due to give birth. I hope that the birth goes well, that there is a healthy baby, and a minimum of pain for Mrs Geek. I live on a different continent, don't know the guy personally, am not a Dr. there is nothing i could actually DO to achieve that. I can however pray that it all goes well. If God exists, listens, and gives Mrs Geek an easy birth then great. If God doesn't exist, or it doesn't happen then my prayer hasn't changed their situation. Has it made a difference to me? if nothing else it's allowed me to "do" something for someone else, but is it really a negative energy statement to acknowledge that I'm not a Dr, I live far away, and I'm not at all involved in the pregnancy???
    Athol_Kay said:
    Prayer is more often than not a verbalized negative statement to the effect that you cannot do something. It's a negative energy statement that you are powerless to create the change you want. That without some outside force, you will fall, fail and falter.

                                                                                                                           

    If quizzes are quizical, what are tests?
  • never_surrendernever_surrender Silver Member Posts: 176

    @pastorgeek ;   you should see some of the Christian hate mail I get.

    Sorry to hear that. You'll get none from me. I admire the goal you seek, even if I seek it from the other side of the table. When I previously blogged, I received quite a bit of pushback from the atheists. It seems to be more of a human thing than a religious or non-religious thing.
    I think hate mail can come from anyone. Religious or not. It's nothing but a person who is hurting inside and needs help.   
    pastorgeekEuropean_Bob
  • never_surrendernever_surrender Silver Member Posts: 176
    Serenity said:
    Interestingly enough, the phrase, "Let go and let God" is not found in Scripture.

    Jesus was a man of action. He healed, he fed, he resurrected, he comforted, he forgave.  All actions.

    In fact, I'm trying to think of a situation where Jesus' help was requested and the *only* thing he did was pray. None spring to mind, but maybe some of you Bible scholars can weigh in.
    In everything he did he herd from the Father for he was the son of God. Also make note that we are also Hid sons because God is our father and He can hear us.  One of my favorite story is when the woman was about to be stoned and the Pharisees ask Jesus what he recommended to do, for the law was to stone her for sleeping with a married man.  Cool thing was that Jesus did not answer right away but scribbled in the sand to hear from God for the answer to this tricky question that was upon him.  We can do this too by seeing Him first.  

  • Athol_KayAthol_Kay My Underground LairPosts: 8,046
    edited August 2013
    I think it's totally normal to use the phrase non-christian or non-muslim etc. We often use negatives to define ourselves. e.g.

    The point is you're using a negative to define me.

     

     One Hour Call   12-Week Guided MAP

    "The turnaround is tremendous.  And I'm lifting weights, eating better, and tackling projects.  I have all this great energy without a vampire sucking my life force.  :)  He's a lot stronger standing on his own two feet, as well."  - Scarlet

    JellyBean
  • pastorgeekpastorgeek Dodgeville, WI. USASilver Member Posts: 752
    Athol_Kay said:
    I think it's totally normal to use the phrase non-christian or non-muslim etc. We often use negatives to define ourselves. e.g.

    The point is you're using a negative to define me.

    Actually, whenever you define yourself as an atheist, as you occasionally remind folks that you are, you are defining yourself using a negative. Merriam-Webster dictionary defines atheist thus: "one who believes that there is no deity". An atheist is one who doesn't believe. "a" being Latin for without and "theos" being "God".

     "Get slim, get fit, be manly! But mostly, be the guy your wife thought she was marrying!" - me.

    Now blogging at simonpeter.org

  • ScarletScarlet Category Moderator** Posts: 7,542
    There is a difference between a grammatical negative and a negative statement.  Yes, the definition of "atheist" is grammatically negative.  It is not, however, a negative thing to be.  It is rarely useful or positive to define yourself by what you are not.

    Besides, I like to think of myself as an equal opportunity atheist.  I don't believe in Odin or Rah, just as much as I don't believe in Yahweh.  Defining myself by all the things I don't believe in would take quite a long time. 
    Speak your truth. 
    Athol_Kay[Deleted User]JellyBean
  • SavageSavage MidWest USASilver Member Posts: 336

    Arguing semantics is where the whole pro-god/no-god discussion gets stalled.  The fact is, MMSL is (so far) the best tool I've found for the marriage ending epidemic we've found today.  I cannot even begin to describe how it turned my life around as well as my overall perspective about life as a whole.

    I have found few if any conflicts directly with the word of God, and believe me I've looked.  This site saves marriages utilizing a series of tools that deal with how we are wired/programed as human beings.  The very fact that it is so PRO-marriage is one of the greatest assets that contributes to its success.

    I understand wanting to mix spirituality into this equation and discussions thereof, that being said, it's the thou shalt not/thou better do this discussion that seems to be a waste of time.

    I was married 7 years before I found this site, and I prayed, begged, pleaded God to give me the tools to "change my wife".  I really don't care what others believe of MY spirituality, but I truly attest that I was directed here to "change my own life".  Take more responsibility, become warrior-like, head my household, lead by example, set the tone, and direct the frequency and overall accountability of a sex-life with my wife.  That last sentence is as BIBLICAL as it can get.  ALL of those items have specific verses that back up our REQUIREMENT to do these things as heads of household. 

    Whatever Athol believes is firmly in his corner to do so (free will and what-not), but I absolutely now KNOW that YOU are responsible for the change.  I pray daily that God gives me the courage and conviction to continue to become the man he designed me to be, but:

    • I GO TO THE GYM;
    • I INITIATE SEX;
    • I PLAY WITH MY DAUGHTER;
    • I HANDLE OUR BILLS;
    • I CARE FOR OUR PROPERTY;
    • I LEAD MY FAMILY IN PRAYER;

    One of the greatest smiles I've seen from my wife is me on my knees by my daughter's bed as she lay there sleeping asking for the lord's protection.  I give my life freely for the lord to do his will, but I will STRIVE utilizing whatever tools he directs me to, to incorporate them for my family's success. 

    The Lord at times blesses my family, and at times allows me to experience the hurts (just tore up my shoulder badly,etc.).  But, I will be stronger for the hurts and experiences that I push through BECAUSE I incorporated accountability into my MAP.  I set the stage for the family.  It's up to me, to respond to life's ups and downs with faith and conviction or denial and cowardice. 

    I thank GOD my marriage was saved because I learned of this site. 

    .....and I thank Athol Kay for his wisdom.

    If you're comfortable....you're losing.
    MonaSerenityMrDaveRnever_surrender
  • MonaMona USSilver Member Posts: 795
    JellyBean said:
    @Athol_Kay
    " Why aren't you a non-Muslim, or a non-Mormon, or non-Buddhist?   Just curious."
    Isn't it strange?  There is no word to identify me as a non-alchemist or a non-astrologist, but there is a word to define me as one who does not believe in other superstitious myths.
    Athol_Kay said:
    I think it's totally normal to use the phrase non-christian or non-muslim etc. We often use negatives to define ourselves. e.g.

    The point is you're using a negative to define me.

    Actually, monkeysuncle originally defined himself as non-christian, and then you took personal offense for some reason.  But yes, the negative is necessary in this context. If we were having a conversation about Islam, I would be a non-muslim.  If we were having a conversation about atheism...well, I probably wouldn't use "non" or "not" in that case because it sounds weird.  Perhaps because of the double negative, as Atheist means non-theist. 

    The bottom line is, you do not understand or believe in the theological doctrine, and that is important to acknowledge when you attempt to give those who do believe, advice.  Use Athiest, use non, use whatever.  But the less discerning deserve to know that your advice is not based on theological precepts.  I realize you already do this, and I appreciate it.  I'm actually confused as to why the "non" label bothers you at all, but it is perfectly valid within context, and is not meant as an insult. 

    Remember @Lurky's rant about academic feminism vs.  pop-culture feminism?  Well I'm a non-feminist ;-) but the same thing is at work with Christianity.  Pop-culture Christianity reflects the bible about as well as chick flicks reflect realistic relationship dynamics.  When people who don't understand the theological and philosophical principles at work try to give advice, it can be very unintentionally damaging, precisely because their rudimentary understanding allows them to sound kinda sorta right while actually being critically and fundamentally wrong.  Simple understanding yields simple advice, which can certainly be useful as a first step in understanding, but oversimplifications fall apart when situations become complex.  The subtleties of both the individual situation and the theological doctrine are important. 

    You've seen this happen with the MAP.  People hear "be more alpha" and immediately start trying to order others about without doing any of the actual work first, or understanding what alpha means, or the difference between good and bad alpha/good and bad beta;  or most critically, understanding how important a proper balance of alpha and beta is.  The understanding of scripture is fundamentally understanding the balance between various facets of God. The paradoxes in scripture are ultimately the same as the apparent paradox of alpha/beta.  Both are needed in balance.  But as happens so often with alpha and/or beta, or other principles of the MAP/game, people take one scriptural concept and run with it, to the exclusion of all others and insist that everyone else must be wrong.  This is what causes such division.  Look at the schisms in the manosphere, and you will, again, see the parallels.  The fundamental precepts are the same, but people tend to pick one facet of the truth and run with it without bothering to find a balance. 

    So identifying yourself or others as athiest or non-christian, is as important as identifying your self as blue pill, or non-red pill, or anti-game, or however you want to phrase it.  If someone comes in here, says they skimmed the book and thought it was bunk, and we're all a bunch of crazy misogynists for even following this website, but here's what they think you should do to fix your relationship, what would your response be?  Alternately, look at how quickly you can pick out someone who has no understanding of "the red pill" based on their comments and posts.  That's how quickly someone with theological understanding can pick out someone who has little to none.  Now think about how badly you facepalm when someone with rudimentary understanding misrepresents your advice and gets other people doing the wrong thing (default yes anyone?).  Yeah, it's exactly like that. 

  • ScarletScarlet Category Moderator** Posts: 7,542
    @Mona, while I cannot speak for @Athol_Kay, I do not see how he took personal offense to anything.  
    Speak your truth. 
    JellyBean
  • MonaMona USSilver Member Posts: 795
    I was specifically refering to where he said "you're using a negative to define me".  That came across as defensive to me, though I could be misreading.  Apologies if I am. 

  • SerenitySerenity Senior Moderator** Posts: 11,358
    edited August 2013
    Agree with @Savage.  I can see this from both angles. I personally love when my husband prays with/for me and our kids, BUT .... if *all* he did was pray and didn't also work his butt off, then I would think he was weak and that his prayer was a cop out.

    I see a lot of Christians who want to treat God as their own personal gumball machine ... put your quarter in and get your prayer answered. Never mind the fact that every step they've taken has been counter productive to meeting their goal. That makes me a little crazified sometimes.

    For myself, I pray because I can't *not* pray. God is with me every moment, so how can I avoid talking to him?  Sometimes, when I'm ticked off with him, I give him the silent treatment for a while, but I never last long. I always come back. It's just like breathing air to me. Necessary for life.
    Savage said:
    One of the greatest smiles I've seen from my wife is me on my knees by my daughter's bed as she lay there sleeping asking for the lord's protection.....

    I thank GOD my marriage was saved because I learned of this site. 

    .....and I thank Athol Kay for his wisdom.

    MonaAkatsukami
  • European_BobEuropean_Bob EuropeSilver Member Posts: 139
    Theres a lot of smart, insightful people on this forum...
                                                                                                                           

    If quizzes are quizical, what are tests?
  • AkatsukamiAkatsukami IllinoisSilver Member Posts: 171
    Serenity said:

    I see a lot of Christians who want to treat God as their own personal gumball machine ... put your quarter in and get your prayer answered.
    So what you're saying is, "G-d is not a machine into which you put prayer coins until miracles fall out"? ;)
    Data is not information.
    Information is not knowledge.
    Knowledge is not wisdom.
    JellyBeanSerenity
  • Athol_KayAthol_Kay My Underground LairPosts: 8,046
    Mona said:

    The bottom line is, you do not understand or believe in the theological doctrine, and that is important to acknowledge when you attempt to give those who do believe, advice.  Use Athiest, use non, use whatever.  But the less discerning deserve to know that your advice is not based on theological precepts.  I realize you already do this, and I appreciate it.  I'm actually confused as to why the "non" label bothers you at all, but it is perfectly valid within context, and is not meant as an insult. 

    You know I was going to be a minister right?

    I do understand theology.

     One Hour Call   12-Week Guided MAP

    "The turnaround is tremendous.  And I'm lifting weights, eating better, and tackling projects.  I have all this great energy without a vampire sucking my life force.  :)  He's a lot stronger standing on his own two feet, as well."  - Scarlet

  • MonaMona USSilver Member Posts: 795
    edited August 2013
    Athol_Kay said:
    Mona said:

    The bottom line is, you do not understand or believe in the theological doctrine, and that is important to acknowledge when you attempt to give those who do believe, advice.  Use Athiest, use non, use whatever.  But the less discerning deserve to know that your advice is not based on theological precepts.  I realize you already do this, and I appreciate it.  I'm actually confused as to why the "non" label bothers you at all, but it is perfectly valid within context, and is not meant as an insult. 

    You know I was going to be a minister right?

    I do understand theology.

    Isn't that kinda like saying "I was going to be a doctor", when handing out medical advice?  :))  Though to be fair, I have no formal theological training.  I just spend an inordinate amount of my free time studying it informally.  I also don't put much stock in degrees as a marker of aptitude.  Just because you have the book knowledge, doesn't mean you're good at applying it.  For example, you have no formal degree in psychology, therapy, sociology, or counseling.  Yet your methods are considerably more effective than those with established degrees and careers in the field. 

  • pastorgeekpastorgeek Dodgeville, WI. USASilver Member Posts: 752
    Mona said:
    Athol_Kay said:
    Mona said:

    The bottom line is, you do not understand or believe in the theological doctrine, and that is important to acknowledge when you attempt to give those who do believe, advice.  Use Athiest, use non, use whatever.  But the less discerning deserve to know that your advice is not based on theological precepts.  I realize you already do this, and I appreciate it.  I'm actually confused as to why the "non" label bothers you at all, but it is perfectly valid within context, and is not meant as an insult. 

    You know I was going to be a minister right?

    I do understand theology.

    Isn't that kinda like saying "I was going to be a doctor", when handing out medical advice?  :))  Though to be fair, I have no formal theological training.  I just spend an inordinate amount of my free time studying it informally.  I also don't put much stock in degrees as a marker of aptitude.  Just because you have the book knowledge, doesn't mean you're good at applying it.  For example, you have no formal degree in psychology, therapy, sociology, or counseling.  Yet your methods are considerably more effective than those with established degrees and careers in the field. 
    @Mona, you beat me to it!

    With all due respect to our gracious host, who I like and admire, I have to disagree with him on this matter.

    @Athol_Kay, I understand that you were studying to be a minister, but you did not become a minister. And from what I've read that you've written about theology, you don't understand it as well as you think you do. At best, I would say you were acquainted with theology. I am an actual licensed minister, who has been pastoring for six years now and while I don't claim to know everything about theology (I am still learning and studying and drawing closer to God on a regular basis) I am solid with the fundamentals. I know more than enough to spot bad theology when it is presented.

     "Get slim, get fit, be manly! But mostly, be the guy your wife thought she was marrying!" - me.

    Now blogging at simonpeter.org

  • ScarletScarlet Category Moderator** Posts: 7,542
    You can understand theology and still disagree with it. For example, transubstantiation vs con substantiation - how do you know which one (or neither) you agree with if you don't understand either?
    Speak your truth. 
    Mona[Deleted User]
  • Athol_KayAthol_Kay My Underground LairPosts: 8,046
    Mona said:
    Athol_Kay said:
    Mona said:

    The bottom line is, you do not understand or believe in the theological doctrine, and that is important to acknowledge when you attempt to give those who do believe, advice.  Use Athiest, use non, use whatever.  But the less discerning deserve to know that your advice is not based on theological precepts.  I realize you already do this, and I appreciate it.  I'm actually confused as to why the "non" label bothers you at all, but it is perfectly valid within context, and is not meant as an insult. 

    You know I was going to be a minister right?

    I do understand theology.

    Isn't that kinda like saying "I was going to be a doctor", when handing out medical advice?  :))  Though to be fair, I have no formal theological training.  I just spend an inordinate amount of my free time studying it informally.  I also don't put much stock in degrees as a marker of aptitude.  Just because you have the book knowledge, doesn't mean you're good at applying it.  For example, you have no formal degree in psychology, therapy, sociology, or counseling.  Yet your methods are considerably more effective than those with established degrees and careers in the field. 

    Actually I do have a degree in Sociology.

     One Hour Call   12-Week Guided MAP

    "The turnaround is tremendous.  And I'm lifting weights, eating better, and tackling projects.  I have all this great energy without a vampire sucking my life force.  :)  He's a lot stronger standing on his own two feet, as well."  - Scarlet

    JemStone
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