cuddling. What should I do?

sextapesextape Member Posts: 15
Hello fellow cartographers. This is actually my first post so I'll give a brief intro.

Im 37. Wife 42. Married 11 yrs. Together for 17. two 7 year old boys (yep twins).
I desire her 2-3 times per week. We've had sex on average once a month for 7 years.
NO affairs on either side of relationship. I'm sure of it.

MAP progress: I'm just getting started. I'm betaized / oneitisized etc.. So I've been adding alpha.

Without further delay... 
My wife loves to cuddle up on my shoulder at night and fall asleep.  I'm a stomach/side sleeper so when I comply, I can't fall asleep till I move her off my shoulder.  Fine. I make sacrifices.  She doesn't. typical.  I'm rejected for sex all the time and even if she "has a headache" or any other "rationalization hampster" excuse, she'll still want to lay on my shoulder.  I've built up so much resentment that my emotions what me to say "Yeah right, after you f**k me maybe." But I don't.  Any advice on how to handle this.
Time for change 8/1/2013
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Comments

  • Athol_KayAthol_Kay My Underground LairPosts: 8,046
    sextape said:
    two 7 year old boys (yep twins).
     
    We've had sex on average once a month for 7 years.

    Anything else change 7 years ago?

    Birth control method change?

     

    Get the forum booklet and answer the triage questions. :-)

    http://www.lulu.com/shop/athol-kay/mmsl-forum-booklet-free/ebook/product-20919811.html


     

     One Hour Call   12-Week Guided MAP

    "The turnaround is tremendous.  And I'm lifting weights, eating better, and tackling projects.  I have all this great energy without a vampire sucking my life force.  :)  He's a lot stronger standing on his own two feet, as well."  - Scarlet

  • sextapesextape Member Posts: 15
    Ok. Some more background...
    • no medical issues on either side
    • neither of us is overweight.
    • eliminated nearly all our debts couple years ago. We are financially comfortable
    • we both have full time, descent jobs.
    • leading up to the pregnancy, I had neglected her somewhat by working alot and not being interested in her sexually.  She actually gave me an ultimatum, give her kids or she'd leave me. It was a low point in our marriage. I made significant changes to my lifestyle, became interested in her again, and many years ago sincerely apologized for the past neglect.
    • sex went bad after kids and the previously mentioned physical/emotional neglect.
    • sex like rabbits early in relationship/marriage
    • i look at porn as a substitute for my frustration. NOT as a substitute for my wife whom I desire.
    • birth control has always been condoms until about a month ago.  she now has an IUD (non copper).
    • We get along pretty darn good. I love her and the kids dearly.
    • during a heated conversation about sex recently, I found out she masturbates 2-3 times per week. This really hurt me deep. for years, I've been telling her I need her 2-3 times per week.

    I have read through the entire book (married man.. that is) and have a much better understanding of what's been going on between us. She's completely betaized me and I'm slowly working to change that. I've already seen her respond positively to my changes.  So I really think better sex and an overall happier me are in the future.

    Thanks for your time Anthol and the great book.

    Time for change 8/1/2013
  • maprunnr65355maprunnr65355 FloridaSilver Member Posts: 760
    edited August 2013
    Cuddle on your terms, not hers. Cuddling is important and can be alpha, but you can't let her dictate the terms.

    Generally, I let my wife cuddle me for a few minutes before bed. Then she goes over to her side. I can't sleep with anyone close to me either. Usually we'll cuddle the way you do, then spoon. The latter is her favorite, the former is mine. She'll always get to cuddle on my shoulder, but spooning depends on her. If I initiate, and she turns me down, she won't get much spooning. I remain Outcome Independent, I don't get pissy or anything. I just tell her to come cuddle me, when I'm done, I'll tell ehr to turn over. I'll then cuddle up to her spoon style for a few seconds, give her a kiss, and go to sleep. When she doesn't reject me, I made sure to give her a lot of cuddling when we're done.
    [Deleted User]
  • EightbitEightbit DruidiaGold Men Posts: 2,410
    She's masturbating and NOT having sex with you? There's something bigger here, what is it? I'd work through the triage again and see if there's an elephant hiding somewhere.
    Insert witty, insightful signature here.
    [Deleted User][Deleted User]liquidMplsRS
  • OnMyWayOnMyWay AlphaBeta JunctionSilver Member Posts: 177
    Punching bag.  For the resentment.  (still need to take my own advice, of course.)  You need to get it out so it doesn't hinder your OI.

    Otherwise:  
    Step 1:  Initiate. I didn't read anything about that in your post, so make damn sure you do it.
    Step 2:  Get rejected.  It's gonna happen.  Get used to it.  You can be sad, or you can go to plan B.
    Step 3:  Plan B = Initiate more. Be cocky and funny, do something silly, disarm the hamster.
    Step 4:  Get rejected.  I'm just sayin'.  Probably gonna happen, get used to it.  
    Step 5:  Plan B again.  Nothing worth having comes without work.  She knows this, and if you give up, you're telling her that she's not worth the effort of seduction.

    So at this point you're either having wild monkey sex (mission accomplished), or you're not going to (hard no).  She might be a little bit pissed off, or worried that you're going to be angry.  You're not. You don't care.  This is outcome independence.  Sex is important enough for you to work for it, working for it is part of the sex (seduction doesn't just happen).  But it is NOT so important to you that not getting it has the power to change the direction of your mood.  It is, quite simply, no big deal

    Step 6:  Get up and go do something else, something you like. If she asks why you're leaving, just tell her happily that you're too energized to sleep just now, and you're going to go do something almost as awesome.  If she asks if you're mad, say: "well, my cock's taking it pretty hard, but don't feel too bad...  he's kind of a prick."  Wink, and walk away.  Bonus points for saying "You're welcome" or "I'm here 'til Thursday" or "don't forget to tip your waitress".  Act like the lame-ass joke was your plan all along, because it was, it just happened to be Plan C.


    Oh, and Step -1: drive-bys, flirting, sexting, etc.  Lots of threads here on that kind of thing.  Seduction is an all-day affair.







    [Deleted User]Angeline
  • sextapesextape Member Posts: 15
    Thanks for the different perspectives. I definitely need to work on the OI thing.  As of late, I've been able to handle the rejection better.  After Anthol's enlightening lesson in biology and the hamster wheel analogy, I handle the rejections much better. I used to just get pist and think why can't you just help me out here.  But now I realize that isn't really want I want anyway. I need her to desire me again.

    @Eightbit
    Unless she holding on to resentment from being neglected by me 8 years ago, I'm not sure what elephants could exist.  I've ruled out affairs.  She is somewhat of a helicopter mom and has been content with living with the "kids great father." She DEFINITELY put them before me after they were born.  I made it clear a year ago that I won't tolerate that nonsense anymore. She's been better though she still has a ways to go.
    Time for change 8/1/2013
  • EightbitEightbit DruidiaGold Men Posts: 2,410
    Ok so you're masturbating to porn, she's masturbating to...well something. What is it?

    And I agree with the above about your fitness. What are your sex ranks, is she above you objectively?


    @Eightbit ...  I made it clear a year ago that I won't tolerate that nonsense 


    So tell us about what prompted this conversion and how it went.
    Insert witty, insightful signature here.
  • sextapesextape Member Posts: 15
    @bmmnorth
    I see your point about porn reducing my seduction efforts.  Although it may affect my efforts subconsciously a bit, my 7yrs of rejection has a much larger impact on my efforts.  I'm improving in this area though.

    @Angeline
    Sorry Athol :/ Nobody likes their name misspelled.
    Fitness: Yes, I can move her around.  I would say toss though.  I have muscle definition. I am actually more fit than I was when we first met/wedding.  There is room for more improvement which I'm working on. 
    Finances: Yes, I manage those.
    Family Direction: It's probably always been 50/50 but I've been taking a bigger slice lately and will continue to do so.
    Income: Equal until today.  She just got a huge promotion so her rank just jumped some.
    Children: If I didn't discipline, they would get no discipline. She is a spoiling, helicopter mom.
    Sketchy triage: Yeah, I don't have much time to post on here. Lunch breaks at work is about it. I wouldn't dare post from home when my wife is around.

    @Eightbit
    Sex rank. hmm.  A little difficult to rate.  Here's a stab.
    Socially, we're equal.
    Physically, I probably have a slight edge.
    A couple years ago, she probably had the edge. I've made big strides in many aspects of my life including dressing better, dental work, physique, and socially.

    "she's masturbating to...well something. What is it?"
    I dunno.  I will ask when timing right. Though I'm not likely to get a straight answer. She will probably say me.  She is a very passive, private person. Any females care to comment on what you think about while indulging in one's self? Angeline? Anybody?

    Any comment on the tub / wine refills?
    Lunch break is ending :)
    Time for change 8/1/2013
  • EightbitEightbit DruidiaGold Men Posts: 2,410
    I was thinking about your thread and how it relates to other topics we've seen brought up here. The last time I remember hearing about a wife refusing sex while simultaneously masturbating a lot was a 911 thread, where the wife I think was having a lesbian affair. Someone else might remember and link it, I can't find it now.

    That's neither here nor there for you, but you've got to give us more if you really want some help. Do you have more specifically on my final question in my last post? You didn't answer it at all. Also, consider taking the next few days at lunch to write a detailed triage.

    It could be nothing but your wife's behavior VERY much concerns me. There's got to be some reason she would rather orgasm alone than with you, barring bsc obviously.
    Insert witty, insightful signature here.
  • The_DudeThe_Dude Hollywood Star LanesGold Men Posts: 4,583
    @eightbit
    I'm not sure I would agree. I can think of several cases on this forum. Also, my wife masturbated her whole life. Well before the our 911 worthy events.
    A lot of couples just don't admit this to each other. Studies vary. But I generally see numbers around 65% of married women masturbate.

    Unless I'm missing something your saying, I don't think a wife masturbating by itself means much. Aggravating I your not getting any sure, but as a sign of something bigger?
  • EightbitEightbit DruidiaGold Men Posts: 2,410
    I'm confused. Do you not see the major issue here? She's masturbating three times a week while denying you sex. No different to me than the pron addict who doesn't fuck his wife cause he's too busy jerking off.

    If you've seen posts from women who are doing this, definitely look to them for advice. They might be able to give you valuable insight into why your wife is refusing you.
    Insert witty, insightful signature here.
  • softwaredevsoftwaredev Member Posts: 82
    Not sure that I agree with your read on this either @Eightbit
    It sounds to me like the typical "she wants sex, just not with him" that a lot of us guys on the forum are working through. To me, this one seems like we need to get to the bottom of why she isn't attracted to him. My money is on him being yet another nice guy (join the club!)
    GoodGirlAngeline
  • daisukidaisuki CaliforniaMember Posts: 30
    There is nothing wrong with a wife masturbating per se.  Within the frame of a healthy marital sex life there is nothing at all wrong with it.  Everyone needs a little alone time.  But turning you down and then going off to masturbate is a totally different story.  My thought is quality of sex when you have it.  You say it went bad after the kids, did you mean it went bad because you stopped getting it, or the quality actually went down when you were.  And I don't just mean for you here, I mean for her.  Because the only mindset outside of cheating that I can think of that would make a wife turn down her husband to go masturbate is if she sees sex as too much work/a chore and needs that release but doesn't want to deal with the bs involved.  I could be 100% wrong, but that might be a talk worth having.
    maprunnr65355Angeline
  • sextapesextape Member Posts: 15
    @eightbit @the_dude
    Look. I suppose she could be a closet lesbian but there is hardly a window of opportunity for her to cheat on me. Lunch break at work is the only possibility but its only 30mins long.  Leaves early in AM for work. Goes straight from work to pick up kids from school. Weekends we spend all our time together as family. No suspicious activity at all.  If she's having an emotional affair through email or texting, she's covered her tracks perfectly.  I've checked both.  She loves spending time as a family.  She loves date night with me.  She'll even say things like "we need another date night out".  No way she would bring that up if having an affair.  Problem is, date night rarely ends in steamy sex. Even when I'm making all the sexy moves, I'll get an excuse 75% of the time.  Oh.  And... I have no problem bringing her to orgasm.  They're not faked either.  Matter of fact, a lot of times after the orgasmic euphoria subsides, she'll say "why don't we do this more often"  Damn women so confusing  :-O

    @eightbit you said:
    "Do you not see the major issue here? She's masturbating three times a week while denying you sex. No different to me than the pron addict who doesn't fuck his wife cause he's too busy jerking off."

    Yes. It is a MAJOR issue.  Though I'm inclined to think its because of lack of attraction for me (hence I'm reading MMSL).  She's slowly castrated me and I'm attempting surgical re-attachment. I am an extreme victim of betaization.  I will follow up tomorrow with details on a recent confrontation I had with her about the masturbation and other aspects of our relationship.  This confrontation took place BEFORE I discovered mmsl.
    Time for change 8/1/2013
    Angeline
  • sextapesextape Member Posts: 15
    @daisuki and @ softwaredev
    our posts crossed.  You 2 are more on the money. I've become too nice and its turned her off.  Although I obviously could be wrong, she doesn't show any signs of being interested sexually in anyone!  Female or male. Its as if her libido has shut down. Oh wait... she masturbates 2-3 times per week!!!!  So frustrating is right.
    Time for change 8/1/2013
  • The_DudeThe_Dude Hollywood Star LanesGold Men Posts: 4,583
    edited August 2013
    Maybe some confusion here. I am not suggesting she has something else going on. I'm saying the opposite. I don't think that, by itself, masturbation is a sign of anything except being fairly normal.
    If anything it means at least she's got some sex drive so you don't have to battle a zero drive problem.
    The attraction to you issue is what you have to work on. I wouldn't come down on her "self help" program unless you think it's into abnormal addiction territory.
    Focus on how you can make yourself attractive. End of story.
    Angeline
  • daisukidaisuki CaliforniaMember Posts: 30
    So stop being so nice? :)  Okay, lets look at the 25% of the time that you get laid on date night.  What is different about those nights then the other 75%?  Were you doing a more physical activity as part of your date?  Was there more alcohol?  Did you do more drive-bys before?  Did you guys dress up more?  If you can figure that out and then experiment to see if you can recreate it, then you are halfway there.  

    And when she says "why don't we do this more often" why not follow up with "good question...Let's fix that" and then initiate the next morning, do drive bys during the day, and then initiate again in the evening.  She'll probably say no to at least one, but it will be on her mind.
    Angeline
  • sextapesextape Member Posts: 15
    @daisuki
    Yes Yes. all good advice.  I've been doing some of your suggestions. I will try to take note of details leading to the 25%.  Regarding your response to "Why don't we do this more often." I most certainly did respond to her! One obstacle is her shyness about talking about sex.  She gets so embarrassed. I've even joked in the past about sex being such a taboo topic. Very rarely can I get her to engage in sexting.

    Just for the record, I never felt there was no hope for our sex lives.  There are areas of the whole Tarzan the alpha male I need advice on though.
    Time for change 8/1/2013
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