Mother or Lover

Tiger

I've been contemplating this issue for some time, my wife has a hard time being both my lover and a mother, she can do one, or the other, but there is a big context switch for her between them.  The notion of interacting with the children while still thinking about having sex later is completely foreign to her, she either does one or she does the other.

I'm wondering how common this is, @steu2817's recent thread has aspects of this same dynamic, but I have also seen many discussions around here that may well be due to this same effect and would like to explore it a bit more.

When the relationship or marriage is new it is just the two of you so all you see is the "wife/lover", in this mode with a good Alpha/Beta mix the sex is plentiful and all is good.  Eventually she gets pregnant and children arrive at this point you start to see for the first time the "wife/mother" appear.  There is also a lot going on with the new baby, messed up sleep schedules, hormones, breast feeding, etc.  The bonding that she feels to the child, particularly if she is a SAHM and primary caregiver can put the mother role far higher on her priority list than the lover role.  It is often at this point that for her the intimacy of the lover is replaced by the intimacy of the mother.  For him it feels like less intimacy and passion.  As the children grow it changes, but the role of lover continues to be a challenged by the role of mother.  The necessities of life are still there, and children are very good about sucking up all the time and energy that the parents are willing to expend.  At this point the role of mother often becomes her primary focus, the role of lover becomes something that is at best lumped into "fun things to do when time is available" and at worst "a necessary evil to keep the husband support in place".

So this brings me to some questions:

1) How do you balance out these different roles and competitions for a wife's time and attention?

2) Is this dynamic something that others see in their marriages?

3) Why does this seem to be a problem unique to mothers and not something that fathers typically struggle with?

4) Once the red pill is taken the importance of both roles becomes more clear and a better balance can be achieved, but for those of us who have wives who are not fully red pill aware, how can we help them to understand the importance of the role of lover?

My wife and I are near the end of her daily role as mother, but I still get a lot of reminders from her that I need to be patient as she fulfills her role as mother for these last 2 years before our youngest heads off to college.  

Muchhappierwife

This is absolutely what happened to me when I had my children. Mommy mode kicked in, and it seems like I could never turn it off. And I think it is only made worse by the fact that I'm a SAHM and am around them all the time when they're at home, and a large part of the time when they're at school. "Mommy mode" is the only time that I've ever felt like there's some sort of driving force that is coming from pure instinct governing my actions, and turning it off seemed impossible.

My husband has been gently trying to tell me the same thing as your post for years. None of it ever really got through, though. I just looked at him as selfish for not wanting to put our semi-helpless children first all of the time. Having the oldest hit double-digits and the youngest not be too far behind and seeing them become less helpless and more self-sufficient helped a tiny bit, but it really wasn't until I read MMSL a month ago that it really hit me that it wasn't fair to expect my husband to take a backseat to the kids for the 20 years it would take for both of them to be adults. I just got through MAP, and not always being in "mommy mode" is the #1 top thing on my list to fix. It is the reddest red of all reds that there ever was. There will be times when being a mother is top priority, and he will have to accept that, but I have just come to realize very recently that it isn't healthy for any one of the four of us to always be that way.

Tiger

My wife is starting to realize this as well, and it's making a huge difference in our lives.  She recently commented to me that she can see us together as a couple again without the children and is looking forward to it.

@muchhappierwife, let me know what is working for you to be able to turn off mommy mode, or better yet be able to multi-task and be both a great mom and a your husband's lover at the same time, or at least in quick succession  Being flirty and mommy is something MrsTiger struggles with.

exuberance

If there's a secret strategy for balancing mother/lover, someone please fill me the heck in. 

My day is so utterly consumed with kids and home schooling and breaking up bickering and forming these young minds and trying not to go crazy that when it's time to shut that switch off and turn into sexy goddess lady of the night for my husband, my switchboard just ain't working. And if we're trying to fool around and I HEAR (let alone see or smell)  the children, it's all over. My brain and body cease to even try to respond.  

:-S

So far, I've just been trying to push through anyway, but sometimes I think it's getting worse, not better. As in, I see a toy of theirs on the floor in the bedroom while trying to get it on with the husbeast and it's suddenly the female equivalent of ED. 

Muchhappierwife

Hmm. I'm not sure if I'm at quick succession yet, it has only been a few weeks. I've also got larger issues, because I grew up in a cult where dressed like I was in Little House on the Prairie clothes, flirting was bad, you were expected to marry the 1st person you dated, you only had sex when you were married, and you were told what kind of sex you could have when you were married (hint: if you can't procreate when doing it, you can't do it), so I've had lots of issues about not instigating anything flirty or sexual, anyway, because it was "dirty". But I guess I have some things that have helped. I wouldn't say they'd work for anyone else though.

The most important is that I've taught the kids how to take care of themselves more. It leaves me less tired, and they actually have fun with having more responsibility. Teaching them how to make breakfast and telling them to take care of the dogs in the morning means that I don't have to get up with them every morning at 6:30, so on weekends DH and I can sleep in, and they're perfectly happy to make things that don't involve the stove, and watch cartoons for an extra hour or two. I also make sure that when they go to bed I "clock out of work" and mommy mode turns off unless there's an emergency. Nor do I let myself always be on alert waiting for an emergency to happen.  Yours are older, though, so probably doesn't help.

I set up a weird reward system where if I'm feeling happy or flirty, I make sure to try to express it then and there. And then if I've done it during the day, I give myself a tiny bite of my favorite chocolate at night as a reward. That might not be the recommended way of doing things on here, but I figure I have a MAP and I'm running it, so I'm sticking with it.

And probably the least helpful one of all is I do really dorky things every now and then. Both DH and I are total goofs, we really deserve each other, and I realized pre-kids we were a whole lot sillier, and that made flirty easier. I do things like randomly licking him or the kids, or turning off the closet light when he's in there with the door shut, and then running away and laughing. Not remotely attractive in the least, but I think that it has been lightening up the mood, and it lets DH know that I'm not all serious or being proper mom lady, and being stupid has always worked in the past for both of us, and it helps me, and he even said he forgot how much he missed us being stupid.

I was thinking, I've never been a forum person much, but I do go on a really big parenting website off and on over the past 9 years, and periodically things repeat themselves, because there are so many moms on there, and there's often a thread about who do you love more, or who would you do more for, or who is more important to you (you get the gist) your kids or your DH. I would say there's never any less than 9 out of 10 posts that the answer is "my kids, of course". And then the 9 moms that answered their kids would pile on the 1 mom that answered their DH. I think this is a really common problem with most married adults.

Louise

I tend not to think about sex while doing things with the children, but I've always been quite happy to have sex with my husband when they were asleep or at school or otherwise engaged. I've never considered it a problem. The children certainly come first with me, but I've never found that stopped us having sex.

Maria

So this brings me to some questions:

3) Why does this seem to be a problem unique to mothers and not something that fathers typically struggle with?

It's getting easier now the children are older.
The "nurturing, caring-for-baby years" are most challenging, as it is difficult to switch between the roles. I think fathers have it easier, because for them Alpha (dominance, confidence,... is consistent with both being a father and a husband. If they lean too much towards Beta they need to "only" add more Alpha.

Women on the other hand have it harder to bring together what they conceive as conflicting roles : Adding Alpha for them basically means feeling and acting more sexy -  that clashes with the received image of being a mother.

How comfortable are you guys on this forum with the image of YOUR mother as a sex kitten opposed to your image of your father as a lover/player?  :-O
See how deeply ingrained this dichotomy is?

Its's basically the saint-whore issue all over again. As a mother you move automatically to the saint category and you can't be the whore at the same time. You need to switch according to situation and people involved, while as a man you can display the same male Alpha traits universally on every occasion.
This switching is tiresome, sometimes even exhausting. It needs conscious forethought, doesn't happen automatically - and tends to get lost in everyday's struggles UNLESS feeling sexy and feminine is your default mental state and has already become second nature to you before you became a mother.

liquid

Tiger said:

So this brings me to some questions:

1) How do you balance out these different roles and competitions for a wife's time and attention?

2) Is this dynamic something that others see in their marriages?

3) Why does this seem to be a problem unique to mothers and not something that fathers typically struggle with?

4) Once the red pill is taken the importance of both roles becomes more clear and a better balance can be achieved, but for those of us who have wives who are not fully red pill aware, how can we help them to understand the importance of the role of lover?

My wife and I are near the end of her daily role as mother, but I still get a lot of reminders from her that I need to be patient as she fulfills her role as mother for these last 2 years before our youngest heads off to college.  

This was hard to deal with. My husband comes first with me. I love my children but he is my favorite person in the whole world and I never get enough of his time and attention. But, practically speaking, kids are mentally and physically exhausting to raise. The responsibilities are overwhelming and are, basically, a big distraction.

For me, it all swung back the year my youngest turned five. He could make his own breakfast and stopped coming into our bed 3-4 nights a week. Once I was sleeping well again my drive came back with a bang! Actually, it was better than it had been before kids! But it was nearly fifteen years of distraction and exhaustion - more than half our marriage.

My husband is actually the type who puts the children first. He claims that it doesn't mean he loves me less, just that they need him more. It plays out differently for him. Being a father hasn't changed his interest in/focus on sex, but he does prioritize them when he "spends" his money, time and effort.

These days we have a 22, 20, 14 and 13yo at home. And we live in an apartment (largish, 3br,2 baths, but still) so privacy is an issue. We have had to learn how to GO TO BED, even though sometimes they are all still up, having dance parties, skyping boyfriends, writing papers, arguing. I have had to learn not to lose my orgasm even though I can hear them in the kitchen making a late snack. I tend to be loud so I have to stifle it sometimes. I know that my older ones know what we are up to but they don't say anything. Generally, they are glad that we are still together and clearly "in love". We all just kind of pretend it is not happening. My husband thinks hat they are oblivious - lol.

By now, your wife really could, if she saw the importance, work on controlling her distractions. No, with kids still in our homes we can't just do it on the couch or get started in the kitchen but we can all make the effort to prioritize sex, kwim?

DrumHorn

I'm so glad this thread was started.  Our sex life was getting consistently better in April and May once the hormone therapy started working.  But once the summer started and our two kids were home all day every day, the quality of the sex dropped back to her hormone imbalanced times.  So it's felt like a real setback but at the same time I know that the kids being home all day every day is a significant factor.

The good news is that school is starting soon (10 days!) so I'm hoping the quality of sex will improve back to April/May levels or better.

Serenity

This was definitely an issue for us until the past year. What helped me change was my husband's leadership. Once he started insisting on time together, I followed his lead.

For example, a year ago, when he would get home from work, the kids would mob him and since he has so little time with them, he felt like his top priority was talking to them about their days, spending time with them, etc.

He has changed this dynamic and while he says hello to them when he first gets home, he now insists that we go to our room together as soon as he walks in the door from work. He closes *and locks* the door, and we lay on the bed together and talk and re-connect. The kids aren't allowed to knock on the door unless they're bleeding or vomiting.  We don't talk about the kids, we talk about us, our days, but mostly we re-connect physically. A lot of touching, kissing, sexual innuendo, etc.

He's also taken a hard line about being more open about touching me in front of the kids. He kisses, smacks my bottom, hugs me and is much more openly sexual with me. At first, the kids reacted predictably ... 'eew, that's gross' ... and he shut that down pretty hard. It's kind of like he gave me permission to be sexual even though I'm a mom. It really helped.

Tiger

Some great responses here, thanks all.

@Louise I think my wife has much this same attitude.  They are very different mindsets for her, she loves both of them, but they are separate.  I sometimes call it the big switch.  Picture the knife switch in the old Frankenstein movies.  I have to grab both handles and disengage mommy mode and engage lover mode. Sometimes the effort necessary to throw that switch is ... significant.

@Maria definitely easier as the kids get older.  There is more time without kids in the house, just last weekend we left the kids alone for the day and did and overnight just the two of us.  Those times are awesome she is fully into lover mode and we are making great strides in this area since I started my MAP, it is engaging that same dynamic during the week when children and life are front and center that remains challenging.  We are both getting much better about being able to set the rest of life aside to make time for us, but the kids are right there... all the damn time

I agree there are definitely Madonna/Whore issues at play in her subconscious.  She has never been comfortable acting sexy unless she's really turned on and then it just "happens", but if she is not there yet it all feels very uncomfortable for her, she ends up going for goofy/silly.  This IS something I'm trying to help her get more comfortable with, but it is a slow process.  I'm fine with being patient with it though, and I think things are improving.

@liquid as we are getting closer and being more of a couple again since I started my MAP she is making much more of an effort.  But there is still resistance, she has not bought off on some key elements.  She really does want to pretend for the children that we don't have sex.  She was never particularly loud during sex, but when the kids are in the house she is always nearly silent, and has a much harder time letting go and getting her O.  One dynamic that has never been a problem for us is PDAs.  We have always been very touchy, which is awesome, and we routinely kiss and hug each other in front of the kids.  She's even become fine with me being more aggressive with my gropes, part of my MAP.  But with the kids in the house none of that gets her going the way the same set of actions will when they are not around.

@drumhorn summer is definitely the hardest.  This fall daughter #1 heads off to college so we will only have one in the house, the percentage of days when there are no kids here will go up dramatically as prior to this both kids had to have activities for it to be just us.  From a personal perspective this issue is likely to become less important soon, and with daughter #2 a junior in high school the whole dynamic pretty much goes away in 2 years for us.

@seriously I have had this conversation about her coming before the kids for me.  She pays lip service to the idea, but now that I'm further along in my MAP, I probably need to revisit this.  I have always believed that she came first, but for a long time I'm certain for her the priorities were flipped.  The kids "needed" her, I was able to take care of myself.  I think that's an easy place to slip into unless you make a conscious decision NOT to think that way.  I remember thinking as she was in labor, if there are any problems, there would be no question.  Save my wife, we can make another baby.  But she probably never really had to think about that and likely did not cement a priority in her mind.  This is something for couples who are thinking about children to thing about.  Cement the priority NOW, it is important.  I think this is part of what @Neanderthal2000 is saying.

@Serenity That's just awesome.  I work from home so I really missed out on the "Tiger's home!" dynamic, which is kind of sad actually.  I'd still make the trade-off, but still...  There are definitely some nuggets to mine out of what you have said that I want to apply to my family.  My wife is actually really good about following my lead, most of the time.  This actually made it hard to discuss C/FO in our home because we really don't disagree, and she does naturally follow my lead.  She is resistant to being demoted from co-captain to first officer, equality of the sexes is big with her.  She really is naturally submissive, she simply is unwilling to admit it to herself, I think. I'm trying to figure out how important it is to fight the battle, her actions are all classic FO, her words are all blue pill.  If she is acting like I want in most of the important ways, then is this really a hill that's worth taking?  Anyway, your message gives me more resolve to continue to lead her where I want here to go, thank you.

Mr_Brown

I have been pondering this exact issue...

I have been wondering if its a touch issue, I watch the kids crawl up to my wife put there hands all over her, she'll be carrying one around the other is hanging on to her leg. Cuddling sleeping hugging you name it. By the time I get home she's been groped by two individuals for 10-12 hours straight. Kids are 10 mos and 2.5 yrs. Just thinking I know it's a contributor but what's the weight of it affecting her not wanting to be physical?

Serenity

@Tiger ; As long as she's walking the walk, who cares if she's talking the talk.

To be honest, even though I do prefer a lot of dominance from my husband, if he started talking about me being 'demoted' from Co-Captain to FO', he'd have a huge battle on his hands. I consider myself his equal. We are different, and play different roles based on our different strengths .... but definitely equal.

The important thing is to be strong, confident and decisive (which I think you are based on what you post). She will naturally follow your lead. It's the actions that count, not the words.

Tiger said:

@Serenity My wife is actually really good about following my lead, most of the time.  This actually made it hard to discuss C/FO in our home because we really don't disagree, and she does naturally follow my lead.  She is resistant to being demoted from co-captain to first officer, equality of the sexes is big with her.  She really is naturally submissive, she simply is unwilling to admit it to herself, I think. I'm trying to figure out how important it is to fight the battle, her actions are all classic FO, her words are all blue pill.  If she is acting like I want in most of the important ways, then is this really a hill that's worth taking?  Anyway, your message gives me more resolve to continue to lead her where I want here to go, thank you.

Louise

Mr_Brown said:

I have been pondering this exact issue... I have been wondering if its a touch issue, I watch the kids crawl up to my wife put there hands all over her, she'll be carrying one around the other is hanging on to her leg. Cuddling sleeping hugging you name it. By the time I get home she's been groped by two individuals for 10-12 hours straight. Kids are 10 mos and 2.5 yrs. Just thinking I know it's a contributor but what's the weight of it affecting her not wanting to be physical?

personally, I didn't find that having physical contact with the children all day when they were babies out me off touching, sex etc with my husband, but sometimes I was just too tired. it was sheer pyhsical exhaustion that caused lack of enthusiasm for sex at times.

Tiger

Yep, that's pretty much where my head is as well.

To be clear there has been no talk of being demoted, that is my attempt to verbalize for the forum her reaction to the one conversation we had about C/FO. But reading what I wrote above, that was not clear in my my post, sorry about that.

I think part of what makes this so difficult for her is the dichotomy for a woman in modern society.  There is real value to being aggressive and standing up for herself in her career and outside our relationship, this requires her to make decisions and stand up for herself.  But I think it is more draining for her to do that than I realized, at home she simply does not want that. 

In addition while she can be a very good leader and decision maker and wants to have that in her career, at home she wants me to be making those decisions and be the leader.  For years I treated her as an equal and expected that she would be as comfortable making decisions for us as I was, but since I've started my MAP, I've come to realize that while she is capable of that she is far more comfortable with me making the important choices.  Since we agree about 99% of the time the same decision gets made either way.  But things run so much more smoothly when I am making the decisions and she is supporting my decision making. 

Part of this is that I am more engaged if I am on the hook to make a decision.  I'm far more willing to just delegate an entire task to her than she is to me.  When I am making the decision, she naturally stays engaged and supports the process, I don't really do that well.  C/FO is the dynamic here, but if you asked her she would probably say that she is letting me make the decision because it keeps me engaged, and as long as I'm making a decision that is reasonable, what is the difference.  In the few cases where we disagree it's almost always because either decision is acceptable and we just need a choice made.

It's working, so why mess with it.  C/FO gave me a way to understand the dynamic, and that's enough.

DrumHorn

Tiger said:

@Maria definitely easier as the kids get older.  There is more time without kids in the house, just last weekend we left the kids alone for the day and did and overnight just the two of us.  Those times are awesome she is fully into lover mode and we are making great strides in this area since I started my MAP, it is engaging that same dynamic during the week when children and life are front and center that remains challenging.  We are both getting much better about being able to set the rest of life aside to make time for us, but the kids are right there... all the damn time

@drumhorn summer is definitely the hardest.  This fall daughter #1 heads off to college so we will only have one in the house, the percentage of days when there are no kids here will go up dramatically as prior to this both kids had to have activities for it to be just us.  From a personal perspective this issue is likely to become less important soon, and with daughter #2 a junior in high school the whole dynamic pretty much goes away in 2 years for us.

@Tiger,

I wish we were dealing with teenagers at that this point.  Right now, my wife taking care of a 3 year old girl (who is potty training) and a 6 year old boy (who we are taking to a child psychologist to deal with behavioral issues).  As a result, she's doing a lot of refereeing/timeouts during the day and I'm sure that has to be draining on her.  So when you add a husband who comes home and tries to do a drive by while she's getting dinner ready, she's really not in the mood for it.  In fact, it's hard for me to do any close contact during the day when the kids are awake and running around.

The kids are going to grandmas house this weekend so we'll have a rare quiet house this weekend to be with each other.

Serenity

@Tiger ; Yeah, I think where things get messed up is some guys read about a C/FO dynamic, and their mind immediately goes to thinking that the husband is superior and the wife inferior. They start communicating this to their wife, either verbally or through their actions, and understandably, she starts pushing back on that. Especially if he's been a lousy leader for a long time.

The way I think of it is that I am as capable of being the Captain as my husband is, but because of my personality, I choose not to be in that position. Kind of like Riker was perfectly capable of Captaining his own ship, and was, in fact, encouraged to do so many times, but was more satisfied being the FO.

It's a matter of roles more than it is natural abilities.

Tiger

@serenity, well put.

@drumhorn, don't know to tell you man.  I can see her being worn out from that being a very reasonable thing, which I think is part of what makes it so hard to force her out of that mode.  From one perspective a good Captain takes the needs of his crew into account, at the same time your needs/wants are important as well. How do you find that balance, I do not know.  This is also the part where it's not my problem, my kids are bigger now

One thing I do know, getting out of the house matters.  In the house she spends most of her time as mommy, everything around her reminds her of that role.  So my advice to you for the weekend is to get out of the house, a change of venue can change the tone of the whole interaction.  Took MrsTiger away last weekend for a night at a BnB the change in tone as we left home behind and were able to focus on us was pretty dramatic.  On our way of town I didn't want sex from her and wasn't even sure I'd have a good time over the weekend, but I tried to keep a positive frame and so did she and eventually we let the crap from home go and really enjoyed our time together.  We both found the passion and it was pretty awesome. When we returned home both our attitudes were much better.

DrumHorn

@Tiger,

Yeah, it's been hard for me this summer to balance my needs with her lack of desire. This month, I had to pull back from 3-4 times a week to 1-2 times a week because sex was clearly becoming a drain for her.  Hopefully after a week or two of school she'll be more receptive.

Something I've done since November is give her free reign to leave the house after dinner so that she can go workout or run errands by herself.  And then she's back by the time I am done putting the kids to bed so that we can do whatever evening activity we had planned together.

Tiger

When my kids were little, I was in charge of bath time and she did kitchen cleanup.  That allowed her to know that every night she'd have at least a half hour or so of no kids after dinner.  That worked well for us.  Story time and bedtime was one of her favorite things so giving that up was not something she was willing to do, but to have me be the one to get everyone cleaned up and ready to read books and go to bed worked well.

DrumHorn

Mini-update:

Kids have been away for 5 hours and about 30 minutes ago we just had some fantastic sex .  Looking back at the other successes we've had over the summer I can confidently conclude that the quality of sex is directly proportional to how many hours she has spent AWAY from the children.

Hmm...I may have to start taking the kids on day trips to Chuck E Cheese every weekend!