Best communication methods?

Hamster_Free

Per recommendations on this forum, I'm actively seeking better communication methods through my church and counselor.  For both ladies and gents, what works best for you when it all runs south?  What do you do to effectively communicate your needs/desires in your marriage?  This forum gives a lot of ammunition for fellas to State and Take what they want.  If I do that as a wife, it seems like it comes across as a shit test, whether or not it is.  Ladies, how do you present your needs in a way that your (ideally) red pill guy doesn't swat it off as a fitness test, and gents, when do you listen and accept that your FO has a genuine concern, and isn't just 'being hormonal'?

Hamster_Free

I completely agree. 

What if I deliver a non-hormonal concern in a reasonable tone and he either gunts a shutterup "mm-hmm" and then doesn't comply or ignores it entirely?  How do I grab his face, look him in the eye, and say, I need you to hear me on this, without grabbing his face, looking him in the eye, and say, I need you to hear me on this?

Elaine

Have you tried the email route? Type it all out and save it. Read it the next day. If it still sounds reasonable send it. If it sounds emotional or irrational, delete and repeat until it does sound right the following day. This gets rid of attitude and/or tone. Plus you can show him the email when he later says you never told him. . Sometimes what we say is not what others hear. If verbal is failing, try emailing first to generate a more productive verbal later...

Hamster_Free

@ Mandy, that's my current workaround.  It's been working a little more lately, but he never acknowledges that I wrote anything.  Fine, if it's just "I haven't seen the dog in two days, would you please mow the lawn" and the lawn suddenly gets mowed, but for larger looming issues, like finances, future planning, crazy in-laws (both sides), etc, it's really pretty crazy making when I pour out a thoughtful email with positions, thoughts, suggestions, etc and he says *nothing* about it, or will answer further probing questions with one word or less..  He's a chatty guy.  Loves to talk.  Just not about the stuff I NEED to talk about.

Notelrac

At some point, both you and your husband should agree on the ground rules you are learning about.  It will probably help if you have a neutral third party present.  If your husband is allergic to therapy, you need to frame it as not a "you have a problem and need to fix it" meeting, but a "how we can communicate better" meeting.

Here are some suggestions for you to research.

Use I-language: "I-want, I-need", instead of "You-should, You-must."

If you need to vent and rant and let some emotions out preface by saying, "This is not a problem you need to fix.  I'm not asking you to do anything except listen."  And then talk about the annoying person at work, or the latest household catastrophe.  Train your husband in how he should respond so you feel validated.  "Oh, that's too bad."  "That wasn't right."  "They shouldn't have done that."  And make sure he never feels the need to say "I'm sorry" or "I apologize" for things that are not his fault.

Come up with a verbal code phrase that both of you can use in public to shut the other person down without losing face.  He needs a way to tell you that you just shit tested him.  (Mine is saying, "Yes dear.")  You need a way to tell him he's being an asshole.  (My wife uses a sigh and an eyeroll.)

Figure out what to do when the conversation triggers heightened emotions.  Decide what should happen if you (or he) starts crying.  Or starts yelling.  Or shuts down mentally and goes into a "diffuse, distract, evade".

Learn about gaslighting, gunnysacking, and other toxic and fallacious argumentation.  Don't let either of you get away with it.

Hamster_Free

Thanks, @Notelrac.

I'm very meticulous about I-phrases..

Great point about prefacing vents so that he doesn't just shut down because my mouth is open--although he is pretty good about recognizing a vent when he hears one and passively listening if something else is bothering. 

Definitely going at counseling as a marriage communication tune-up tool, not 'my husband is a @#$@ who won't listen to me, fix him please'. 

Great idea on the shit tests.  And yes, we both need those code words, although we are both *exceedingly* sensitive about throwing down in public and will avoid it at just about all costs.  Even just having a "I see what you're doing there" code for conversations around the house will be useful in preventing unseemly displays in front of the kids.

DEFINITELY good points on handling emotional reactions and learning about toxic argumentation.  My tears have a hair trigger (which I hate, cause I know, tears are weapons, and I really do hate fighting dirty).  Conversely, his temper is pretty short fused, too, but I know he doesn't like hollering just as much as I don't like crying--probably a big part of why we just-don't-talk-about-upsetting-things.....This gives me very good focus on top priorities for establishing effective communication methods.

Thanks again!

 

FlyingDutchman

Just make sure you're in the C/FO frame and you'll be fine.  In other words, how would the FO approach the Captain with a valid concern?  It would be done with respect and without just running down a list of complaints about the Captain.  There would be good reason for it and it wouldn't just be some small annoyance that would be forgotten about in a few days anyway.  A good Captain will listen and then decide on appropriate changes of course, if any.

Hamster_Free

@FlyingDutchman, it's as @Notelrac says; we need to agree on the ground rules first. 

Right now, in these situations, he isn't acknowledging his Captainship.  He's taking his notepad into his ready room and locking the door.  That's what I'm trying to get around.

FlyingDutchman

Can you give more background?  What is the change you are looking for?  Are you attracted to him (sounds like you are)?  Is he attracted to you? Do you guys have a good sex life currently?  What is your SR and his SR?  Does he make a regular habit of ignoring you or does this only happen when he doesn't want to talk about something?

Hamster_Free

Attraction is good on both sides. We're prolly both about a 6. If the sex was great, i wouldn't b here. but I've put a lot more effort in that dept than he has lately. He only shuts down when i need to communicate a problem (doesn't matter how big or small). Yes, I'll concede there have been shit tests in the past, but certainly no more than (I would imagine) is normal in a standrd marriage, and I really am hyper-sensitive to being a nag, since before we were married (since befOre him even). He does not want to talk about shared responsibilties. He does not want to talk about Tense Topics. He shuts down and either turns on the tv before I'm finished or erects the Impenetrable Invisible Wall at the end of his iPad from which he Does Not Look Up. I think @notelrac has given me some good tools and concepts to pursue.

FlyingDutchman

Those are classic ADHD symptoms.  Does he have ADHD?

Notelrac

Here's my go-to book for how to recognize and defuse toxic argumentation.  It's written for a lay audience.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Gentle-Verbal-Self-Defense-Work/dp/0735200890

Elaine

FWIW when I reached my breaking point about the lack of communication, we did an on-line therapy of sorts. My husband travels quite a bit for work and we have small kids so traditional therapy would have been difficult for us to do. We both agreed if the on-line thing didn't seem to help that we would find a way to try traditional counseling. I think that gave him extra incentive to give 100% on the on-line stuff. I think the thought of having to talk about intimate things in front of a stranger terrified him. The fact that he agreed to do it was a great source of hope and inspiration to me. Luckily the on-line stuff worked perfectly for our needs. I just googled emotional needs questionairre, verbal needs, sexual needs,etc. You can find a questionairre on just about anything you feel that you need to strengthen or at least need to touch base on. Fill out the 1st questionairre individually on separate printed copies or email each other the final copies. Then pick a night to discuss your answers together. We designated one night a week for Happy Hour and discussed our answers over drinks in our bedroom. A lot of people think you shouldn't discuss things in the bedroom so you can keep it a neutral "safe zone," but that is the only place we could really be alone and stay somewhat uninterrupted. There were verbal exercises as well but we did better with questionairres. They sparked discussions that we would have never had and put us at ease with communication. We now have the tools to have conversations about absolutely anything. The fact that he now hears what I am actually saying is amazing to me. I had no idea how bad our communication skills really were. We are so much closer now and have so much more confidence in our relationship that we are probably going to do some on-line counseling type exercises at least once a year just to make sure we stay on top of it. My hubby was exactly like yours so I truly empathize. It was so frustrating to work up the courage to say something only to have very minimal or no acknowledgement. hope I never feel that alone in my marriage again.

Hamster_Free

Great resources, everyone! Thanks! @FlyingDutchman, he's ADD (not hyperactive). Oh and insanely stressed. He started chatting a bit tonight (oh, sure, when HE wants to talk it's ok [SO just kidding...I'll TOTALLY take what I can get]). He's got stuff coming up at work that he views as a vast waste of time and resources, but which he has to do in order to stay competitive for advancement, and with downsizing in effect, he's extra stressed about staying competitive.
See, guys in the What we hate about the truth discussion? Women go nuts if we don't know what's going on with you. It's like hamster heroine. Just talk to us.
I also really can't wait for the semi biennial occasion when my dude's ready to talk to air any issues I might have, either. For the record, it was all about his concerns, but since i didn't want to derail communication of any sort, that's the way it was.

FlyingDutchman

If he's ADD then that normally means that you feel invisible to him a lot of the time.  A combination of meds and behavior therapy can really make a big difference, but only if he is on board.  ADD can put a lot of extra stress on relationships and commonly does.  I will say this though, its better for him to have ADD than for you to have it.  The dynamic when a wife has it is that the husband feels invisible and he has to chase her for attention, which then makes him look unnecessarily needy, which is an attraction killer for women.

However, the challenge in the bedroom, is that you have to get the ADD partner's focused attention and keep it from other distractions.  But, that shouldn't be too hard if you know how to make things visually exciting for him.  Once you get him to hyperfocus on you it should be above average.  Life with an ADDer is going to be more rollercoaster ride than merry-go-round.

I hope some of this helps.

Hamster_Free

@FlyingDutchman, it definitely helps.  Allowing that there's some actual diagnosable disorder makes the horse pill a little easier to swallow than 'he's just not that into you'.  He can only take certain medications due to his work, and found that some of the medications he was allowed to take had the obnoxious side effect of making him suicidal (when he was commuting 40 miles each way--in heavy metropolitan traffic--on a motorcycle--oh yeah, and his work environment was already unnecessarily toxic at the time. eeeeeeeeep.).