Intro - Dominant Wife Rebuffs MAP

SidArthurSidArthur SouthwestMember Posts: 4
Hello! I've been on the Red Pill for about a year now. I've read the books and the blog, but never really got involved in the forums until now.

I'm a 36-year-old beardy white dude. I have been married to my wonderful wife for 4 1/2 years, and coupled for 7. She is very put-together, 34 years old, beautiful and curvy.

I have always had a really active libido. She has never been as interested in sex as I am, and I have been ok with that. What really gets me frustrated is when she starts behaving as though she's actively trying to minimize the amount of sex we're both having. I was married before, in my 20s, and divorced over this same issue. After divorce, I went on two-year swinging spree. I enjoyed the experiences, but didn't like the way that I spent so much time chasing after them. It also became clear that the women I was sleeping with all wanted a commitment sooner or later and I didn't want to hurt them. When I re-met the woman who is now my wife, I was looking for one woman to whom I could make a genuine commitment and be happy about it -- what most men look for at some point, I suppose -- and I believe I found her.

She is intelligent, beautiful, caring, and a problem-solver. We are wonderfully compatible in many ways: We are both liberal, outdoorsy, literate, and love our families. I also really love the fact that she doesn't like to start drama for no good reason, like so many others I've dated. Instead we talk about our issues and work through them.

We went to counseling two years ago and made a lot of progress on meeting each other's needs, in bed and otherwise. She has been making an effort to have sex at least every few days. I know that's all that a lot of readers here are asking for, and I'm fortunate. I'm happy about it, but I don't like that we tend to have the *same* sex, and that so often she's only going through the motions for my benefit. I try to suggest ways to make it novel and more pleasing for us both, but I get push-back on this. Also, I'm a little suspicious that the way *she* wants to be loved is through acts of service, which usually amount to chores.

Like so many others here, I'm not satisfied with the quality and quantity of the sex I'm having and I want to do something about it. I've been working the MAP for about a year. I've learned a language for understanding our situation, and I've seen some improvements. But at the moment I'm still working to get the results I want. I'm more Beta by nature and that means working on my Alpha traits.

Let me try to answer the basic questions about my relationship:

1. No medical issues. She stopped using birth control pills about two years ago. We've been actively trying to conceive for almost two years. We're going to a fertility specialist for the past few months to get help with that. She is using Clomid (egg booster) and getting a monthly IUI (artificial insemination).

It has always taken some effort on her part for her to have an orgasm. As much as I always offer to get her to orgasm, she often declines because it's too much effort for her to have one.

2. I'm not a loser. I have an excellent job that I love. I make more money. We bought a great house this year, as near to both of our families as we want to be. I'm physically fit: I run and work out several times a week. Between the two of us, I'm the fit one. She goes to the gym, but is disappointed that she doesn't see results.

3. I don't believe I'm critical of her or have made major gaffs -- except that I periodically I can't hide my frustration about sex and I know that counts as being critical.

4. I don't believe there's another man.

5. We've had sex between 1 and 3 times a week for most of our relationship, with spells of less and more. When it got really bad two years ago (down to a couple times a month) I said we needed to go to counseling (pretty much an ultimatum). We did and it got better. We get kinky periodically (toys and anal), but while I expected those successful experiments to lead to more interesting sex, she constantly steers us back towards missionary with no surprises. It's consistent, but it is so often the *same* sex, and often we both know she's doing it for my benefit. It's less satisfying. Also, disempowering: I can't up my Alpha game while she's pulling my sexual strings.

My wife tends to take a leadership role -- at her job and in our home. As I've been trying to work on my Alpha traits, she's not responding the way I'd hoped. She is stubbornly trying to hold/claim the dominant position in our relationship and this is just turning into a power struggle. She reacts neutrally or negatively, getting frustrated when I make Alpha moves, as authoritatively or as gently as I try to make them. Since she read the MMSL Primer about six months ago, when she gets frustrated she now also comments on the fact that I'm "trying to be Alpha" when I do something Alpha.

It's a problem in bed. She reacts with resistance when I suggest something other than missionary. Sometimes she'll tell me that she didn't like the way in which I suggested/asked for it. You could say she "tops from the bottom". I try to suggest things I think she'll like (cunnilingus, adding a toy), but she sighs in frustration and says that she doesn't want those things. If she wanted a toy she would have already got one; cunnilingus would mean too much pressure to have an orgasm.

I have been trying to work the MAP in hopes that it will increase the passion in our sex. Since I am naturally more Beta, I have worked on improving my Alpha traits. I was in good shape and got into better shape. I increased my weakest area, my social skills, by joining a public speaking club. I spent some money on improving my wardrobe.

But my efforts at being a better husband haven't had the effects I would have thought. She doesn't seem to be making moves to raise her sex rank (get sexier, lose weight). She has actually gained weight this year. I think that lately she has actually become more bossy, critical, and resistant to my efforts to be more Alpha.

I take this to mean that she's inherently the dominant one in the relationship and she's refusing to play by the logic of MMSL, just trying to be more dominant instead of letting me step up my game. I also wonder whether this means she actually has a higher sex rank (she's a beautiful, successful woman with her shit together, even if she doesn't flaunt her sexiness); or whether I have a higher sex rank, but she's ignoring it, or in denial. I read in MMSL Primer that if you get to this stage and the situation doesn't improve, you actually have a lower sex rank than your partner and have to restart the MAP all over!

If her persistent, dominant attitude means that I am still not Alpha enough, do I need to turn my Alpha way up until she concedes? Her response to my MAP has been to ignore it, sometimes subtly disrespect me, and assert that she's in charge..

Her reaction to MMSL: She read all of the Primer intently (and we've had a lot of good conversations about things discussed in the book, like examples of Alpha and Beta behavior we see in public). Ultimately she expressed skepticism that MMSL was good for a relationship -- that it is about making us better partners -- saying instead that it's a brutal way to fix a relationship (because it puts an ultimatum on one's partner to improve). Why not just talk about problems, she asked? I don't know the best answer to that question (ideas?), but I think everyone reading this got here because that alone doesn't work.

That's me and my situation. I'm trying to have a better sex life and marriage. Thank you, Athol Kay, for writing MMSL! I believe that it is the most useful tool in my toolkit. I look forward to conversing with everyone on these forums -- including reading your initial comments on my situation.
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Comments

  • EightbitEightbit DruidiaGold Men Posts: 2,410
    edited September 2013
    Ugh, you shared the primer with her? Why? My wife @pirouette was fine with it (although I didn't share it with her right away, and she didn't really express a lot of interest in it until I had been MAPping for many months), but she's an outlier. This can be a huge issue, and has been for others on here. To late to fix I guess.

    When you're trying to take control in bed are you doing it as a leader, I.e.using your man strength to move her around or are you asking her to do something? Stop suggesting and just do. Suggesting isn't alpha. Believe me, it's hard to become comfortable with it, I'm still not lol.

    One other thing I'm concerned about is you seen to be mapping to try and improve your sex life. This is the exact wrong thing to do. You MAP to improve you. You become awesome and she can't help but throw her panties at you and fuck your brains out.
    Insert witty, insightful signature here.
  • zerodayzeroday Nyc-areaSilver Member Posts: 910
    Cool story. Did she miss that mmsl goal is internally based. Like "I'm making my self as awesome as possible". As opposed I " I'm not willin to improve but I want more sex!"




    The red pill is so unfair. But don't hate the player hate the game.

    Sounds like you are moving along nicely
  • FarmGirlFarmGirl CaliforniaGold Women Posts: 153
    I'm REALLY new here- so I may not be that much help. You said " I try to suggest things I think she'll like (cunnilingus, adding a toy), but she sighs in frustration and says that she doesn't want those things. If she wanted a toy she would have already got one; cunnilingus would mean too much pressure to have an orgasm."

    Does she orgasm in missionary or at all during sex? Sex without an orgasm is just plain frustrating. If she's had a long time of that then that's an issue.

    Cunnilingus- I have to admit that I hate it myself. It's not for every woman- she may just not like the feel of it.
  • neenneen Member Posts: 3,390
    Welcome to the forum....maybe you should have her read the new MAP book. Some women don't understand the benefits of The Primer. :)
    nothing makes me stronger than your fragile heart
    shibari
  • TiberiusTiberius Silver Member Posts: 336

    "Her reaction to MMSL: She read all of the Primer intently (and we've had a lot of good conversations about things discussed in the book,"

    Actions, not words.

    PS: if you read the blog you know you shouldn't have given her the book till at least phase 3.

     

    EightbitJesusMarimba
  • DanGDanG Member Posts: 1,519
    http://therationalmale.com/2013/09/10/the-male-experience/

    R. Tomassi - "It’s important for red pill Men to understand what their presence, much less their assertions, mean to the feminine; their very existence, just their questioning, represents a challenge to individual, ego-invested feminine solipsism. Always be prepared for the inevitable defense of a woman’s solipsism. Even in the most measured approach, you are essentially breaking a woman’s self-concept by reminding or asserting that her experience is not the universal experience. There’s a temptation for red pill Men to get comfortable with a woman’s who accepts red pill truths, only to find that her solipsism has only accepted the parts of those truths that its comfortable with and benefits from. That solipsism doesn’t die once she’s acknowledged the legitimacy of your experience, anymore than your sexual imperative dies if you accept her experience as the legitimate one."

    ChansenPaleoDadWhereWasI
  • type_plustype_plus Silver Member Posts: 211
    You obviously care too much what she's thinking. Stay in your own frame and do whatever you feel is the right thing to do in being assertive. Lose your oneitis and be more bold. Then you'll be able to become truly OI and her attraction will raise towards you.
    DanGPaleoDad
  • OneEyedDrunkOneEyedDrunk Out West Silver Member Posts: 1,808
    @sidarthur, I would recommend switching things up a little bit. We may not be attracted to you. You said you are a beardy white dude. What about shaving, or possibly making it a goatee. When I met my wife I was clean shaven, and now I have had a goatee for about 4-5 years. As soon as I grew it I knew it was going to be good as she was smiling a lot telling me I looked rugged. That being said, she MIT think you look like one of guys on Duck Dynasty when what she really is attracted to is Chaning Tatum. Switch it up. I used to have a really short military haircut, and had a full head of gray hair (gray hair since 25 basically). I now have a little longer hair spiked slightly, died, etc. how bout your clothes? Are you doing drive by's? Are you cocky? Remember, do it in a fun way. Less talking. I learned my wife loves me being totally cocky. It's gotta be fun. If she loves to laugh, then try it. On licking her, keep trying man. My wife has a lot of difficulty too. When my wife starts pulling that dominant shit in bed, then I grab her and start pounding her. I've had a couple of complaints from her, but I just ignored them. Here's one conversation:

    Me: was I too rough?

    Her: Yeah, a little. Not everything was, but you got a little rough.

    Me: (smiling) Deal with it.

    Tell her a safe word like pancakes or something. Just keep up your MAP man. Change things that have been the same. Find out what kind of guys she is attracted to, and look to why for making a few changes.

    oneeyeddrunk.weebly.com
    Ltiger
  • roeroe Silver Member Posts: 445
    Hi, SidArthur, the character of your marriage seems close enough to mine that we can trade notes.

    re: sex - What would happen if you adopted Athol's "Red Yellow Green" sex communication tool?  It sounds like your wife is mostly "Red" but is pushing through because your counsellor told you both this is how to have a satisfactory marriage, but the result is low-quality sex.  Because she doesn't really want it.  You're "negotiating desire."

    I'll tell you where I'm at:  my wife and I have a "normally good" steady-state sex life - there is enough "green" to keep us both happy - but it's punctuated by short-term periods where there is some "life getting in the way" event that shuts down her libido for a couple of weeks.  This is *immensely frustrating* for me - but intermittant.  We're getting closer to some kind of acceptable compromise.

    re: Dominance - The forum is advising what the forum (awesome as it is) always does - if alpha isn't working, the solution is more alpha.  I'm going to diverge slightly from this advice, because we may be similar sorts of "outlier" married couple.  My wife is very attuned to specific displays of alpha on my behalf, but this *does not include* my being the "Captain" where any major decisions are at stake.  So our relationship is characterized by an "equity partner" dynamic where "executive" day-to-day operations are concerned, but has a "C F/O" dynamic when it comes to "trivial" decisions (like what movie we're going to put on that night), and "sub-communication."  (That is, I maintain a strong dominant presence which is less-then-explicit, and am the emotional "rock".)  Which is all to say - this is what we've found works for us, through experimentation, so you may have to chart a course which diverges slightly from what works for *most* other couples here.

    I'll echo the forum sentiment that it seems from your description like your sex life with your wife maybe wasn't that great to begin with - can you elaborate?

    "The good news is you don’t have to become a romance novel hero, you just have to become her hero...  A woman doesn’t have to be perfect to arouse her husband, she just has to be his Playmate."   -Dalrock

    AngelineshibariPaleoDad
  • DaveBowmanDaveBowman Member Posts: 5,823
    I'm with @JohnGrey.

    Do not ask, take.

    You want to bend her over when you're tired of missionary? Say nothing, move, bend her over.

    She sighs and looks annoyed? Kiss her passionately.

    I think I read in the Primer that if you've used the same position the last two times you have sex, it must be a new position the next time. Variety is the spice of life.

    Keep going, work on your frame.

    You're awesome, so of course she wants to get down on her knees for you. 

    If you're coming from that place, "get down on your knees" sounds pretty convincing and sexy.

    EightbitJoseph_KJohnGreyChanged_Man
  • DaveBowmanDaveBowman Member Posts: 5,823
    Oh, and take charge. Always have an answer. Be decisive. In most things, every day.

    Not saying be a tyrant. She probably won't give up control in the bed until she knows you've got shit sorted in the rest of her life.

    MariaJoseph_KshibariPaleoDad
  • DaveBowmanDaveBowman Member Posts: 5,823
    One last thing: go magnum PI with what she reads... romance novels, anything like that?

    And dig into any fantasies she's ever had.

    Make a list.

    Please don't take this the wrong way, but there's a chance you're as boring in bed as she is.

    EightbitKickboxersashashibari
  • anglophileanglophile Pacific NorthwestSilver Member Posts: 167
    I shared with my wife early on. Frame it like " it's like I'm discovering who I really am. THIS feels natural. It's amazing how effective all that social programming was. Glad to be rid of it." That thing about telling her what to do in bed? That works. Mine resisted early on but stopped when I said I was bored.
    Bessie Braddock: “Sir, you are drunk.”
    Churchill: “Madam, you are ugly. In the morning, I shall be sober.”
  • NotelracNotelrac Member Posts: 3,517
    edited September 2013
    She has never been as interested in sex as I am, and I have been ok with that.
    Then why are you trying to increase it's frequency and passion now?

    I think you're not being truthful with this statement.  You in effect did a "bait and switch" on her.  You broke up with your first wife over sexual issues, lived a swinging lifestyle, and then settled down with her.  Assuming you shared your history with her, she would naturally draw the conclusion that your "wild oats" days were over.  And that you would be comfortable with less-frequent, less-passionate sex.

    What really gets me frustrated is when she starts behaving as though she's actively trying to minimize the amount of sex we're both having.
    This is a convoluted sentence.  I'm drawing the conclusion that you're engaging in some toxic mindreading  -- that instead of asking her whether she is trying to minimize, you're jumping to the conclusion that she is.  And then you get all emotional and frustrated about it.

    Instead we talk about our issues and work through them.

    So what happens when you talk about more frequent and more passionate sex?

    We've been actively trying to conceive for almost two years.

    Your failure to get her pregnant is likely causing some very deeply-buried resentment in her.

    Since she read the MMSL Primer about six months ago
    Read the new MAP book.  Read the first few chapters aloud to her, say during a car ride.  It will give the two of you a new set of definitions and language during your negotiations.

    she gets frustrated she now also comments on the fact that I'm "trying to be Alpha" when I do something Alpha.

    How are you responding?  If you're not doing an "Agree&Amplify", you're doing it wrong.

    cunnilingus would mean too much pressure to have an orgasm.

    Yes.  Yes, you do indeed seem to be entirely to focused on her having orgasms.  Stop doing that.

     

    shibariEightbitChanged_Man
  • NotelracNotelrac Member Posts: 3,517
    This is a separate comment because I didn't want it to get lost in with all the other ones.
    • I try to suggest ways to make [sex] novel and more pleasing for us both
    • I always offer to get her to orgasm
    • She reacts with resistance when I suggest something
    • I try to suggest things I think she'll like
    You talk to much.  And I'm not the only one who thinks so.  In addition to all the other forum members, there is someone else whose opinion is critical and you should pay attention to:

    she'll tell me that she didn't like the way in which I suggested/asked for it

     

    shibariEightbitPaleoDadWhereWasI
  • DanGDanG Member Posts: 1,519
    @KatherineKelly - Well done. Any suggestions as to how to get such a women to be more willing to loose sexual control?

    @SidArthur - I think it was a mistake for you to share the Primer w your wife. I think she will use the knowledge to maintain control. There may be a way around it.

    There are many qualities of your wife and her (seeming) wanting to maintain control that match my wife. Mine, however, does not want to talk about things and seems to not WANT to know much about MMSL. The sex you describe is similar to mine, except mine is interermixted with random hot spots. These are usually associated with times when my wife has witnessed my receiving unsolicited IOIs. I'm currently at a stage in my MAP where I, too, am trying to turn up the heat.

    What happens when your wife observes interest towards you from women - that you have not necessarily solicicited?

    What happens if you become distant and not pursue - skipping the driveby routine? After a while my wife tends to purse me. But, this game has limitations because she CAN go back to being self-sufficient.

    Smashmaster
  • ddadddad Silver Member Posts: 791
    The one that jumped out at me was "I can't up my alpha game while she is holding the sexual strings" Go out and do awesome things.  Have fun - I am not saying pick up women but WTF man you are the one who told us after your first wife you had a 2 yr spree that should create dread right there.
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