Say “Mr. Beta” five times fast

_io

Your passivity and fatalism is highly unattractive. 

"My situation is different from everyone else's and definitely won't work with my special snowflake life and wife.  So no point in exerting myself to improve my life, or my children's lives."

You need to read the Mindful Attraction Plan to understand how you can turn your life around from the negative trajectory you are on.  It's fairly simple to fix, but it won't be easy.

If you want what's best for your children, think about the example you are setting.  Is this how you want them to live their lives?  Because they are looking to you as the model of what a man should be.  

MrBeta

Angeline said:

I'm not actually sure who has the lower sex rank here ... dodgy sperm, pot smoking twice fired for cause vs overweight and not doing anything about it. Neither one of you will do very well in the sexual marketplace. Upside is, while you seem unwilling to change anything about yourself, you also seem quite passive about it. Hooray for marijuana. What exactly are you hoping to accomplish here?

cinnamon said:

Actually, I wonder if your SR is as much higher as you think it is. Pot, anxiety, repeatedly getting fired, poor financial management, bad sperm, compulsive computer use.... All really affect SR. She's not doing so well either, of course. Those women you could pick up easily without changes might not stick around once they learn more about your inner game or lack thereof. I'd suggest mapping for more than a month. You've already decided that since you won't do the latter phases, you needn't bother with the first. I think you should try anyway. The worst case is you become awesome.

I'll respond to these two together because the sentiment is similar.

I guess it's a challenge to accurately calculate your own sex rank, and your points are worth considering, but I still feel like my number would be fairly high.  I tried to emphasize some of my flaws in the triage because I thought they were important, but they might be making an outsized impression in your eyes.  When I look at myself, I see someone who is well-educated, earns a six-figure income (and has kept his job for over 5 years now without issue), looks good for somebody in his 40s, is a great dad, and does well socially when at parties and get-togethers.  Yeah, I have stuff to work on, but I'm being honest when I say that I don't think my wife and I are objectively in the same league. 

I am willing to change some things about myself, and I am doing so.  I've been taking the MAP seriously and I'm trying to "make myself awesome."  I'm going to keep sticking with it and trying to improve myself.   It's just difficult to be motivated to stop jerking off completely or to stop smoking pot completely, when the rewards for doing those things don't seem apparent.

PhoenixDown

@mrbeta It doesn't matter what SR you see yourself, it matters what she sees. And as a wife, I can tell you, I would be very, very unhappy and insecure with those things listed in your triage. And those things = -SR.

MrBeta

RedPillWifey said:

Take charge of the family diet. No more junk food in the house. Institute family walks in the evenings. Tell her how important it is for her to be healthy... Don't mention your attraction issues, but frame it as a health issue, because you want her to be around in the future. 100 lbs overweight can lead to major health problems as she ages.

Schedule an appointment for a full physical for her as well, that should give you an idea of any diabetes or thyroid issues you might be dealing with.

The attraction issues are already out there.  We've had a bunch of conversations over the last few years about it (before I ever started reading MMSL).  So I don't think any changes I make can be sugarcoated as just for health or for the kids.  She's not an idiot.

I've tried to do the sorts of things you've suggested in the past without success.  She knows how to go to the grocery store and buy crap for herself or for the kids.  I'm not sure how I can prohibit her from doing so.

And aren't a lot of these suggestions contrary to the whole spirit of the MAP?  I don't want to be trying to change her -- that's too frustrating and it doesn't work.  I can only change myself.

ernestern

My two cents:

1.  If you are unhappy now, get out.  The kids will be fine and will likely be better off than living with an unhappy father.

2.  If you stay, you are going to have to be her leader in regards to diet and fitness.  Tell her what to or what not to eat.  Tell her to put on her shoes, we are going for a walk.  Keep track of her progress and bug her about getting on a scale if she hasn't done it in a while.  Take that cookie from her hand, telling her you don't need that, eat this apple instead.  

You are going to look and feel like a dick and it will piss her off to no end.  But if she does these things you tell her to do, that is saying that she wants to lose the weight but lacks the willpower or confidence to do so and it is that which you must provide for her and most importantly be consistent about it (my biggest failing with my current struggle).  

If she refuses, then she doesn't see you as a man worth making these sacrifices for and you will either have to become that man or refer back to #1..

PhoenixDown

@MrBeta You can only change yourself, but you can state your expectations. If you're not actively going through the phases of the MAP, you're not really MAPping.

MrBeta

_io said:

Your passivity and fatalism is highly unattractive. 

"My situation is different from everyone else's and definitely won't work with my special snowflake life and wife.  So no point in exerting myself to improve my life, or my children's lives."

You need to read the Mindful Attraction Plan to understand how you can turn your life around from the negative trajectory you are on.  It's fairly simple to fix, but it won't be easy.

If you want what's best for your children, think about the example you are setting.  Is this how you want them to live their lives?  Because they are looking to you as the model of what a man should be.  

Thanks for the tough love!  I've read the book, and I've been spending the last month or so working to improve myself.  I do not want my children to live the life I have.  I want them to be happy in their personal and professional lives.  

DaveBowman

There's multiple structural problems here... but I'll focus on the one that you're focusing on because the others haven't.

100lbs isn't overweight. It's morbidly obese.

Is she trying to take the weight off (given she's working hard in other areas of her life)? If so, I'd give her a ton of space.

If she isn't, this would be a deal breaker for me on so many levels -- and I love the hell out of mrsBowman.

Morbid obesity is a choice unless there are underlying medical conditions such as hormonal imbalances, etc... but these are relatively rare. You don't wake up one day 100lbs overweight. You do it by systematically overeating and underexercising. Systematically, day after day you have to work at it.

I get the "eating their feelings" argument... but staying this weight is killing her, a bad template for your children, an unhealthy environment to raise them in, and to think that this wouldn't terminally impact your marriage is frankly inexcusable.

If I were morbidly obese I would expect to be terminally single and dead soon.

What does she say on this matter?

MrBeta

RedPillWifey said:

@mrbeta It doesn't matter what SR you see yourself, it matters what she sees. And as a wife, I can tell you, I would be very, very unhappy and insecure with those things listed in your triage. And those things = -SR.

@RedPillWifey -- Thanks, stuff like this is making me look at my issues with a different perspective.

I'm trying to keep up with all the comments but they're coming too fast!  I'll keep responding but I might get sidetracked by lunch and/or work soon.  I just want to thank everyone generally for the thoughtful posts.  I don't mind the criticism, that's what I'm here for. 

MrBeta

cinnamon said:

@mrbeta It doesn't matter what SR you see yourself, it matters what she sees. And as a wife, I can tell you, I would be very, very unhappy and insecure with those things listed in your triage. And those things = -SR.

Agreed. Your wife is finishing a grad school program that will double or triple her income? This is not a trivial exercise in self-improvement. She is working her ass off.

@cinnamon -- Yup, she is working insanely hard.  She has a job, goes to school, is an active parent, etc.  That's why she's constantly stressed and overwhelmed.

MrBeta

ernestern said:

My two cents:

1.  If you are unhappy now, get out.  The kids will be fine and will likely be better off than living with an unhappy father.

2.  If you stay, you are going to have to be her leader in regards to diet and fitness.  Tell her what to or what not to eat.  Tell her to put on her shoes, we are going for a walk.  Keep track of her progress and bug her about getting on a scale if she hasn't done it in a while.  Take that cookie from her hand, telling her you don't need that, eat this apple instead.  

You are going to look and feel like a dick and it will piss her off to no end.  But if she does these things you tell her to do, that is saying that she wants to lose the weight but lacks the willpower or confidence to do so and it is that which you must provide for her and most importantly be consistent about it (my biggest failing with my current struggle).  

If she refuses, then she doesn't see you as a man worth making these sacrifices for and you will either have to become that man or refer back to #1..

@ernestern -- I was hoping you would join in the discussion.  I don't actually think the kids would be better off if my wife and I were divorced.  Of course it's possible I'm wrong, and I know plenty of divorced families where things work out great, but I know my family best and I think it would be worse for them.  I really don't see myself changing that position.  

Being the cookie police just seems like a living hell to me.  And I'm not sure exactly how effective it would be -- even if I stopped her from eating anything unhealthy when I'm around, that still leaves many hours of the day where we're not together and she could eat junk.  I can't follow her around all day slapping cookies out of her hands.

MrBeta

RedPillWifey said:

@MrBeta You can only change yourself, but you can state your expectations. If you're not actively going through the phases of the MAP, you're not really MAPping.

@RedPillWifey -- I suppose that's true.  I guess I'm just trying to improve myself and not really doing the MAP officially.  I guess I really am a special snowflake.  

PhoenixDown

@MrBeta As a child of parents who didn't love each other.... kids know. I wish my parents had divorced when I was younger. They stayed civil for quite a while, but it eventually broke down and there was MEGA resentment on both sides. It slowly turned into a toxic environment. Heard of the boiling frog metaphor? 

The kids of divorced parents that have problems are the ones who are abandoned by one of the parents. As long as you stay involved in your kids lives and continue to be a good dad, your kids will be fine. Will they be as well off as kids with a loving, married set of parents? No... but they don't have that now. 

The_Dude

So you're consigning yourself to a life without sex and intimacy. Unacceptable to me but more power to you.

PhoenixDown

@MrBeta Here's a question for you. During the years you were dealing with infertility, did you quit smoking pot, or did you continue? If you continued, she could see that as a MAJOR DLV, since pot smoking effects sperm motility. This would be very hard to deal with and cause lasting resentment. Was this discussed at all? 

Scarlet

Look, you both have potential but you're both complete disasters, just in different ways.  Right now you're in a cycle of negative energy and can't even see the possibilities.  Purchase and read The Mindful Attraction Plan, follow it, and see what happens.  You've got a lot of work to do regardless of whether you stay or go, so first do that work, then make some more decisions.  But it makes no sense to blow it all up before you even try to fix the negative energy cycle that you BOTH have created. 

Maria

MrBeta said:

1)   I read the new book and I’ve been doing the MAP seriously for about a month  Great! And now go on doing it.  Or is it all greens by now ;-)  Debt, pot, clutter and overall lack of drive come to mind... but I can’t really move through the seven phases.  I’m just stuck in some non-phase.There is no such thing. You're in phase 1.

2) We have multiple issues in our marriage, but I think it’s pretty easy to identify the primary one.  The difference in our sex rank is huge and has been for some time.  She’s 100 pounds overweight. My sex rank is relatively high. Others have commented on that... 

I guess I have two overarching questions that maybe somebody has insight about:

A) Is there such thing as a “long term ultimatum”?  Like, would it ever make sense to tell your spouse “if things haven’t changed by 2020, I’m out of here”?  Would it even be fair to issue such an ultimatum when I’m skeptical that I would want to stay married to her even after those changes? Never issue an ultimatum you are not willing to follow through.

Does anyone have advice about staying as happy as possible while “gutting out” a marriage?  I don’t have any expectation that I’ll fall madly in love with my wife again.  But I’d like these years to be as pleasant and rewarding as possible while I wait for the next chapter of my life. Then work on yourself! Inject positive energy into your life - and thus your relationship. Don't let your happiness be solely dependent on your wife:  develop hobbies - even more than that, a passion.

Perhaps she'll fall in love with you again. But this should not be what drives you. Do it for you. Become awesome.

ernestern

MrBeta said:

@ernestern -- I was hoping you would join in the discussion.  I don't actually think the kids would be better off if my wife and I were divorced.  Of course it's possible I'm wrong, and I know plenty of divorced families where things work out great, but I know my family best and I think it would be worse for them.  I really don't see myself changing that position.  

Being the cookie police just seems like a living hell to me.  And I'm not sure exactly how effective it would be -- even if I stopped her from eating anything unhealthy when I'm around, that still leaves many hours of the day where we're not together and she could eat junk.  I can't follow her around all day slapping cookies out of her hands.

Dude, there is no easy button.  You have the hell of being a divorced dad, the hell of living with an unhealthy obese woman you are not attracted to, or the hell of being the cookie police (though I would rethink it as the challenge of being the strong resourceful leader she needs).

As far as her eating willy nilly when you aren't around.  You can't stop that if she decides that is what she wants to do.  All you can do is change yourself, to become the man she wants to change for.  Hell, she might be sitting on the couch right now with a fistfull of cookies thinking along the same line as you are. "Why should I give up what I love for him when he doesn't even have his own shit together...."

DaveBowman

Mandrill said:

@cinnamon said:

I'm guessing she is working that hard because she thinks she had to, because you're happy with your undemanding job and high debt. She lost the weight once and gave up. Maybe because it was too hard, but maybe because there were more important things for her to do given the structural issues. I'm betting the latter.

I agree with this. I read an article written by a track and field/Highland Games competitor who wrote that he believes you only have so much "free will" or energy to accomplish things and once you use it up each day, it's gone. Your wife could have this dilemma. She devotes her energy to the things she sees as necessities and doesn't have the willpower to deal with the rest. Taking control of the financial mess and showing her that you're the leader may alleviate some of things she spends her energy on and she can put it back into weight loss.

I may be way off base, but I see a different dynamic here altogether.

I see two relatively low SR folks that get together, have a laugh, get married, work hard at pumping out a few kids. Their already low SR gets even lower... him through pot, video games, and general "meh" attitude towards career and marriage... her through her increasing weight, and using career/school to be a focus rather than her own issues. Things escalate.

He wakes up, starts working out and changing his life. Because he's a dude he can massively up his SR pretty quickly. The T kicks in and he actually starts wanting sex again...

Only he wakes up to a morbidly obese woman every morning and doesn't want her.

She probably doesn't know what to do... and by focusing on her school/career she's dug herself into a pit of work that means she may not be able to focus her time, energy, and attention on losing the weight.

And by now 100lbs has probably seriously degraded her health, and ability to be attractive even if she lost the weight. She wants sex but knows she's unattractive. He's getting hotter and more out of reach every day. Doom spiral.

I think she needs leadership.

Angeline

Being the cookie police just seems like a living hell to me. And I'm not sure exactly how effective it would be -- even if I stopped her from eating anything unhealthy when I'm around, that still leaves many hours of the day where we're not together and she could eat junk. I can't follow her around all day slapping cookies out of her hands.

The fact that you care enough about her to risk the wrath would be huge. The fact that you finally came clean and said "THIS, dear wife, is precisely and exactly what you need to fix to stay in this", would be the underlying truth that everything else tiptoes around, and Oh My God you won't believe how awesome that freedom will feel.

My thumbnail synopsis of your marriage, worth precisely what you paid for it, is that you were a fairly average, nice couple with some potential. You wanted your babies in here, she wanted your babies. The pot torpedoed your sperm (which makes the pot a source of resentment way down deep, you can see that, right?), she suddenly Did Not Want Defective Sperm in her, and IVF or whatever you guys used further killed sex drive. You heard of the rationalization hamster? At this point, the hamster gives her scripts to STAY married to you, even though she's still young and maybe has enough young/pretty enough to do better, biologically. But it doesn't turn out that way. Instead of you proving that choice sound, you proceed to make it look worse and worse, and she gains weight to avoid being sexy, so that maybe she can avoid sex, and in the meantime realizes she has to get a real job to keep Team Beta afloat.

If you're going to make your decisions on sex rank and the sexual marketplace, you need to see the whole picture, not just cherry pick the good parts. Yeah, she shouldn't be 100 lbs overweight. The weight might just be lazy I want moar! cupcakes!

Or it's a hazmat suit made of fat, built pound by pound to avoid facing how her choices turned out.

To have you in her face about her food choices will be at the same time infuriating and deeply affirming. Do you have that much emotion and affection for her?

ETA: if she starts sneaking off to eat shitty food, there's some other issue going on. A few slips here and there would be different than shooting up Twinkies like a junkie. I think once you demonstrate you care enough to be the asshole that tells it like it is, she will go along, especially once she gets past the sugar/Carb/food dopamine effects and starts seeing results.