CartB4Horse's MAP

CartB4Horse

So, here it goes.  It may not be pretty but at least it's a start.

Phase Two:<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

 

We are equal.  I believe our SR’s are equal in her eyes.  In my eyes I am higher or at least pulling away from even.

 

Cut out MB.  Just stop, almost completely there anyways.  Redirect this energy towards wife, make it positive.  Use the time in mornings to be available for her (in the bedroom, watch news, don’t be in the bathroom with her).

 

Ask for what I want.  No demands, just state my needs.  Obviously this goes for need for sex but also needs to be in other areas.  Tell Head Coach I want to be included during games.  If not, resign.  Don’t make a threat, just tell him my desire and if it doesn’t happen next game drop as a coach.

 

Say no.  Unreasonable tone or request, say no thanks.  Covert contracts (rubbing her back) need to end.  Still rub her back if she asks but DO NOT expect anything without clarification.  “I’ll rub your back if I can finish up on your front”.

 

Outcome Independence.  I need to get a grip on this ASAP.  One idea from the MAP book was to ask for sex earlier in the day, not right before bed.  That way I can plan my evening better, not go to sleep with a woody and a bad attitude.

 

Argument Protocol.  We tend to go down the same path with arguments/issues.  Voices raise, I feel like I have to “win” or “make points” instead of just listening and keeping cool.  She disengages and goes quiet.  To make matters worse I keep trying to talk about it, losing respect in the process.  NEW:  Keep cool.  STFU. Listen not only to what she is saying but how she is saying it.  Hear the context, not just the information.

 

ddad

CartB4Horse said:

Phase Two:

Cut out MB.  Just stop, almost completely there anyways.  Redirect this energy towards wife, make it positive.  Use the time in mornings to be available for her (in the bedroom, watch news, don’t be in the bathroom with her).

 

Ask for what I want.  No demands, just state my needs.  Obviously this goes for need for sex but also needs to be in other areas.  Tell Head Coach I want to be included during games.  If not, resign.  Don’t make a threat, just tell him my desire and if it doesn’t happen next game drop as a coach.

 

Say no.  Unreasonable tone or request, say no thanks.  Covert contracts (rubbing her back) need to end.  Still rub her back if she asks but DO NOT expect anything without clarification.  “I’ll rub your back if I can finish up on your front”.

 

Outcome Independence.  I need to get a grip on this ASAP.  One idea from the MAP book was to ask for sex earlier in the day, not right before bed.  That way I can plan my evening better, not go to sleep with a woody and a bad attitude.

I picked some specific points.

1. Good on the MB don't hide it.  What is up with don't be in the bathroom with her?  I agree that taking a dump is private time but minor grooming can be a good time for flirting and drive bys.
2. Who is the head coach in this analogy?  Are you leading the relationship.  Do you want to be?
3. Change the frame to "I'll rub your back but if I do I will finish on your front".  That moves it from asking to telling her your intention.  Leading.
4.Don't "ask" for sex earlier or later.  Earlier is greater but just initiate and 'take her'.  Earlier is great because if it is a No then you can go and do something great and not seem moody. 

CartB4Horse

@ddad - Thank you for the input!

By "don't be in the bathroom with her" I mean that after I am ready to go to work in the morning (early am) I can be in our bedroom but I don't want to be in our bathroom as it indicates I am following her around the house.  She preps, showers, puts on makeup and gets dressed while I am still home.  I don't want to be a lap dog and hang out in the same room with her but do want to be available if she wants to talk -- she can start a conversation from our bathroom while I am in the bedroom.

I am a coach (total of 4 of us) for a softball team my daughter is on.  Part of my MAP is to ask for what I want outside my marriage (and bedroom).  I do not want to feel used by being at practices and then "benched" in games.  I was recently moved from 1st base coach to the dugout.  The head coach can't read my mind any better than my wife so I have to ask.  There is a bit of me being a pussy in this thing too.  Part of the reason I may have wanted to coach is to feel included in my wife's life.  She spends a lot of time being a "Team Mom" type with financial issues as well.  Don't get me wrong, I enjoy coaching but am no longer willing to do this under some type of covert contract.  If I am needed, great, if not I can go to the gym.

My issue with the sex is that I have a hell of a time with OI.  We have two kids so hittin' it earlier in the day is difficult.  If I wait until the kiddo's are asleep then initiate I have no where to go OI.  I need to sleep.  Any ideas on this??

 

CartB4Horse

Night before last the wife and I had a tense conversation about her bringing some money in to help the family finances.  In our usual style she got pissed and then tried to ignore the issue.  She was sitting at the computer looking at job ads while I was trying to talk with her about the issue at hand.  She gets a text and has to return a message.  I told her it was bull shit.  If she wants to talk she needs to put that aside and pay attention to me.

Later my wife said that she can "multitask" by sending texts and talking with me at the same time.  After pulling the BS card on that I went away and watched some TV.  My problem is I kept trying to re-engage with her after.  I can't do that in the future.  If she wants to be pissy I have to just let her.  Her problem, not mine.  I'll be over here working on awesome.

Yesterday morning she rebelled at my not wanting her to text and phone a bunch when I am home.  Out of frustration I finally said "do whatever the fuck you want, just don't count on me being around when you aren't" (code for her being on the phone/text - she's not around in my mind at that time).  Later during the day she mentioned some bull about another issue we had going on at home that was about as urgent as a hang nail.  I actaully laughed and called her cute.

Sooo, I'd have to say I passed this test but barely.  Give myself a D minus.  Yesterday a buddy (alpha guy) said I should take two weeks off of sex.  I told him I didn't think I could do it (my bad) but that I would give it a rest and "go dark" until Saturday when we will be away from home.  Yesterday and last night I didn't show any interest in her at all but I was cool.  We chatted, got along well and she reached out and grabbed my hand last night in bed (unusual).

This morning she flat out said we should bump uglies tonight.  We'll see, I'm still "dark" until tomorrow night.  She is uncanny in how she reads me.  It didn't even take three hours of me going dark for her to engage and start wanting touch.  I'm not thinking about it tonight but If she indicates interest I have to think about hitting it, don't I?  I can't pass up her showing interest without her feeling rejected, right?

Oh, something else.  Last night I went upstairs to our bedroom and the wife yelled up (in a nice way) that she had to check emails and then would be right up.  She didn't text at all when I was home.  Two indications she is listening to me and doing what I want.  She was under pressure a few nights ago and I believe she was shit testing me.

I'll be back tomorrow to report how it goes tonight.

ddad

CartB4Horse said:

This morning she flat out said we should bump uglies tonight.  We'll see, I'm still "dark" until tomorrow night.  She is uncanny in how she reads me.  It didn't even take three hours of me going dark for her to engage and start wanting touch.  I'm not thinking about it tonight but If she indicates interest I have to think about hitting it, don't I?  I can't pass up her showing interest without her feeling rejected, right?

So if she hints at being interested even in a vague way I suggest you go for it.  Initiate hard and obvious and be prepared to 'no problem' if she doesn't.  Don't assume it is on but if you think she is indicating 'green' then I say go for it.  More damage if she feels she puts herself out there and you don't take her. 

Maybe you need to go back and forth between attention and ignoring her but if she is hinting go for it.

ddad

CartB4Horse said:

My issue with the sex is that I have a hell of a time with OI.  We have two kids so hittin' it earlier in the day is difficult.  If I wait until the kiddo's are asleep then initiate I have no where to go OI.  I need to sleep.  Any ideas on this??

I have the same issue.  I will try for those times that we get the kids occupied.  I had stopped early in our kids time because she gave me shit tests like "you just put that movie on for the kids so we could have sex".  Ohh shame.  Well now I'm back and the answer is "Yes I did".  Also planning to try the get up and do something else on the weekend when there is rejection at bedtime.  Need to show her there are other things more interesting than her. 

Other than that there is just the tone and frame of the body language as I roll off her to go to sleep after a no.  I thought this was OI but her feedback was it was so fast and sudden that she was sure I was angry.

CartB4Horse

@ddad, you are thinking the same things I am.  She gave me a big green light this morning and I will not pass that up.  Maybe me being cool and taking all pressure off last night let me see her interest, if that makes any sense.

I also may have found a way to do some OI, in a backwards sort of way.  I am thinking about going dark on showing interest at all every once in a while.  Don't be a dick, be cool and aloof.  Don't drive by, don't touch, don't initiate.  Two days at a time.  Take a pitch (softball coach, sorry).  See what happens.

Another thing that I have to keep in mind tonight is that being a dark night I can initiate on her green light but shut it down on a soft no. (Right?)  Just go OI.  Teach her that a green light followed by any bull gets her sleeping frustrated while I snore.  I can't do the same when I am working on it but must shoot for a hard no.

I still can't believe this shit works.  I even noticed my wife checking me out when I was getting dressed this morning.  Pushups are paying off already.

ddad

I agree with the 'cool it' to take the pressure off.  Since starting my mapping my drive bys have gone from tentative to most times I walk past her.  I think I want to totally ignore some prime chances to 'drive by' then surprise her with some intense ones.  Keep her guessing, wanting, then surprised at what she got.

Interesting thought punish the soft no because she hinted earlier, I don't think it is a good idea.  When you initiate you could shut it down and go OI if her soft no that is that annoying but generally I would say to push to a hard no if that is what you want.  Even in this situation I am not sure if pulling back when she is resisting a little is a good idea.  It leaves her with the feeling that you just weren't willing to work that hard.  I would rather leave her with the feeling that she when she resists a little it doesn't stop you.  Otherwise you are teaching her that if she acts a little bitchy/not interested it will get you off her.  Bad teacher.

Push ups are a good start and good when you have no other option.  What can you get to do pullups?  They are a huge body weight exercise.

CartB4Horse

@ddad, I am working towards a goal of 100 pushups, doing three sets 25/15/10 for now, increasing each week.  I also do sit ups and will incorporate pull ups today.  I have a jump rope and may start that soon as well.  Good thing is that this stuff is free and takes less than 10 minutes a day and has shown quick results!

I'm 5'10 and weigh 180 lbs, down from 195 lbs.  I'm going down to 175 lbs and then will leave it there.  Good looking dude.

Also, I am not here due to a crises or shitty marriage.  I am divorced (Ex had an affair) for 10 years and happily remarried for 6 years.  I want to be a better man for myself, my wife and my kids.  That better man I am becoming is not the "Nice Guy" I have been before.

DaveBowman

You need to work on your frame more.

You have to get to a place where her external emotional state doesn't impact your internal emotional state.

In other words, suck it up princess and stop giving a shit how she feels or what she thinks.

"You have 2 weeks to get a job. I've lined up the following places for you to send your resume to."

She starts texting while you're talking to her? Do what I do -- walk away.

I don't understand why you'd give her a two week vacation from sex.

CartB4Horse

DaveBowman said:

You need to work on your frame more.

You have to get to a place where her external emotional state doesn't impact your internal emotional state.

In other words, suck it up princess and stop giving a shit how she feels or what she thinks.

"You have 2 weeks to get a job. I've lined up the following places for you to send your resume to."

She starts texting while you're talking to her? Do what I do -- walk away.

I don't understand why you'd give her a two week vacation from sex.

I hear you.  Her emotional state doesn't impact me at all (x3).  The texting crap was just a shit test I believe.  I also believe I handled it well.  Last night it was back to the new good with no texting, stating (nicely) she was going to check emails and then come up to bed.

I wasn't giving her a two week vacation I was giving myself some sort of OI, pay it forward stlye.  I am working on my OI and frankly not that good at it yet.  I am taking a two day break from initiating anything, and doing it for me.  My wife googles slipped a bit with all the BS she has been dishing out.  However; if she gives me any green light tonight I have to take her up on that.  Captain doesn't have to leave it on auto-pilot, right?

DaveBowman

No auto pilot, but I've initiated daily since my Map started in earnest in march/april.

And the daily initiations have been nothing but helpful.

CartB4Horse

@DaveBowman - I'd be willing to bet your OI is ironclad.  Mine is kind of like holding shit with a strainer.

Few issues:  We have two kids at home, so we can't hit it anytime we want.  Mostly restricted to night time.  That means I don't get hard no's until I need to go to sleep.  Tough to sleep when I'm pitching a teepee.

It may be a moot point today as she gave me a green light this morning.  I am prepared to OI tonight as I am still "dark".  Man, I have no idea what I am doing but just feeling my way.

I read that OI will get easier when I just get awesome.  Need a little more practice.  Shoot some touch and goes.

Overall, for doing this stuff without the manual for a month I am making great progress.  Now that I have the book I can get to work even more.

DaveBowman

It doesn't get to be ironclad without practice. Constant practice and discipline.

Yes you can hit it at home with kids. We have kids. Spongebob, a snack, and upstairs we go and lock the door.

Tennee

DaveBowman said:

You need to work on your frame more.

You have to get to a place where her external emotional state doesn't impact your internal emotional state.

In other words, suck it up princess and stop giving a shit how she feels or what she thinks.

"You have 2 weeks to get a job. I've lined up the following places for you to send your resume to."

She starts texting while you're talking to her? Do what I do -- walk away.

I don't understand why you'd give her a two week vacation from sex.

@cartb4horse - you and I live in the same house (don't take the last IPA...). 

This strikes a cord with me - we're having a battle today about something I perceive is stupid - I want to have friends over tonight, she's digging in her heals.   I flat out stated its happening - we've pushed them off for weeks and I want to get together.   This impasse lead to her sleeping on the couch last night (yes, the continuing Control Battle...).   So...

@davebowman - clarify please:  her emotional state not considered at all???   I don't think you mean at all, over any reason, or maybe you do???.   I'm also not suggesting acting like Attila the Hun (wait, maybe I should act like Attila...).   You mean to simply do and proceed as Alpha Man wants to - making decisions, leading, etc. - all within being a Good Captain of course - and if she's turns into Pissy Princess, ignore it?    Brother Dave, your response above hits multiple hot buttons in Tenneeville....that will be on the forthcoming Triage, when I beat it into shape....

Tennee

I did a poor job of 'splaining, as usual, so let me further obfuscate:  

DB -  in your comments, I (from my newbie Red Pill eyes) see a potential conflict between balancing 'good beta' - comfort, reassurance, etc. - and ceasing concern with her emotional state, in other words, suck it the hell up and get over it, I made a decision.   W is in need of comfort/reassurance and I am trying to provide.   But I see me being sucked back into 'yes ma'am' mode, and that ain't happening.   I flat out told her last night I made several decisions, including buds for bbq tonight.   Pissiness ensued...and the further push into her being uncomfortable, unreassured, etc.   

BTW - When is Athol going to perfect an actual RED PILL that we can all just simply take?   If only it were that easy....

Cart - sorry for the Thread Jack my man....

DaveBowman

I don't mean that you don't give a shit about her emotional state or that you don't take it into account in your decision making. I mean that your emotional state isn't tied to hers -- "emotional terrorism" or "if momma aint happy, nobody's happy." You make rational decisions and are happy even if she isn't.

CartB4Horse

@Tennee - Don't worry 'bout the thread jack, I am learning by reading your questions and answers as well.  I agree, we do seem to share domiciles.

Sooooo, about last night.  Wife gave me the green light in the morning.  I was test flying my new "Protocal" for going dark for two days so I kept all flirtitious contact to a minimum.  I didn't send her texts to try and get her in the mood until I responded to a text she sent me late in the afternoon.  Cut to bed time.  We were both tired and went up to lay down around 8:00 pm. I told my wife what to wear to bed (nighty she can wear in front of the DD without the sprout's radar going off).  I rubbed my wifes back while watching baseball and we both fell asleep..... I woke up later and laughed thinking about posting here about falling asleep.  Then I just got her fired up and took it.  Good time for all.

Thing is I can not attribute the sex to my actions or non-actions as I don't know if SHE just wanted it so it happened.  Also, I feel fuckingtastic today and wonder if she feels the same? 

We head out to our lake house tonight and I plan on being aggressively on my game.  Stalk my prey for 4 days. Bikini clad wife, good friends (couples) with other bikini clad wives.  I am the AMOG here and really make the wife wet.

 

mike79

What was the sex like when it did happen? Was she into it or just going through the motionz?

CartB4Horse

@mike79 -- It was good for both of us.  It seems like it has been better quality every time except when she gave me starfish twice.  Even then she almost let go.  It was like her brain was fighting with her body to NOT let go and enjoy it.

The week end was good.  We only knocked it out once, in the morning after she gave me a hard no the night before.

We are on day 14 of her cycle today.  This is the first time I am keeping track of things so we'll see how this goes.  I left her a note by the coffee pot this morning, just beta stuff to keep her spirits up.

CartB4Horse

Storm front ahead......

So, Friday night I have to have a sit down with the wife and get her to either get a new business going or she will have to get a job.  I expect the shit will hit the fan.  She will pull the emotional card (because it has worked so well).  I have to keep my emotions out of it, make my point.  Our family needs her to bring in a little income so we can pay our bills.

This is a major fear of mine.  I will be in conflict with my wife.  She will get emotional.  I will feel uneasy due to the conflict and will want to "smooth it over" by giving in.  I have to stand my ground and keep my emotions out of it.

If I can do this (I can) I will confirm I am Phase Two.  I am going beyond just asking for things, I am telling her "no" (she can't stay at home as a SAHM) and that she needs (my need) to get an income.

And to think I have something to do with how she treats me.